Duggars by the Dozen - General Discussion - Part 9

[milkncookies76]

Why is it necessary to belittle others beliefs?

I understand you do not agree with me. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me so why do you belittle people who are Christians?

Do you belittle Muslims? Buddhism? Hinduism? Judaism? These religions hold onto their beliefs as strongly as Christians do.

If I believe that my cat is a god what difference does that make to you? I am not forcing it on you I am not forcing you to pray to my cat so why do you care?

Please show me where I belittle Christians. The only thing I "belittle" is belief in an all-powerful, all-loving God, which is found in multiple religions. Typically, this view comes from Abrahamic faiths, so if I am talking to a J/C/M and they mention that they believe in an all-powerful, all-loving God, I'll tell them what I think.

You want to believe it, fine. I'm just pointing out that it is not possible for an all-loving, all-powerful God to exist.

[Belugaloo]

To you, what is God?

To me, God is love. God is selfless. Jesus represents god to me.

I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins, but I cannot prove that that really happened. All I know is that Jesus represents god to me more than any other religion, so even if he did not exist, he is still my example for how I want to live my life.

I am confused, though. I thought your question pertained to my statement that I did not say that God was all-knowing? Did you want me to address that in this post?

[singsingsing]

I belittle the belief that an all-powerful, all-loving God exists, because that is crazy. Typically, this view comes from Abrahamic faiths, so if I am talking to a J/C/M and they mention that they believe in an all-powerful, all-loving God, I'll tell them what I think.

You want to believe it, fine. I'm just pointing out that it is not possible for an all-loving, all-powerful God to exist.

So you believe that billions of people are crazy? You have a very hostile, dismissive attitude. I have no idea what your background is, but intelligent, educated people have been discussing and debating this very issue (reconciling free will with an all-knowing, all-powerful God, the question of why God allows suffering, etc) for thousands of years. Believe whatever you want, but you're approaching it with about as much rationality as a fundamentalist.

[milkncookies76]

To me, God is love. God is selfless. Jesus represents god to me.

I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins, but I cannot prove that that really happened. All I know is that Jesus represents god to me more than any other religion, so even if he did not exist, he is still my example for how I want to live my life.

I am confused, though. I thought your question pertained to my statement that I did not say that God was all-knowing? Did you want me to address that in this post?

Yes, please.

Also, do other figures represent god to you? Abraham or Mohammed of Buddha or Krishna?

[albanuadh_1]

milkncookies76: Perhaps you should read or re-read Job or Ecclesiastes or Genesis and the story of Joseph. Or google Jewish perspective on the Holocaust.

I can't explain what God is but this bs that God is a person is infuriating. As much as I would love to think of God in the same way as I did when I was a child, that description is best left for children.

The best example for the existence of God is Jesus.

[milkncookies76]

So you believe that billions of people are crazy? You have a very hostile, dismissive attitude. I have no idea what your background is, but intelligent, educated people have been discussing and debating this very issue (reconciling free will with an all-knowing, all-powerful God, the question of why God allows suffering, etc) for thousands of years. Believe whatever you want, but you're approaching it with about as much rationality as a fundamentalist.

First off,there is no need to insult me, or my intelligence, billions of people believe in a certain crazy idea, and there is simply no possible way for an all-loving, all-powerful God to create and allow evil. Maybe a God exists, but the idea of this wonderful, caring, powerful figure is simply not true.

[milkncookies76]

milkncookies76: Perhaps you should read or re-read Job or Ecclesiastes or Genesis and the story of Joseph. Or google Jewish perspective on the Holocaust.

I can't explain what God is but this bs that God is a person is infuriating. As much as I would love to think of God in the same way as I did when I was a child, that description is best left for children.

The best example for the existence of God is Jesus.

Hate to say this, but the evidence surrounding the life of a certain Jesus is sketchy at best.

[Belugaloo]

Yes, please.

Also, do other figures represent god to you? Abraham or Mohammed of Buddha or Krishna?

My opinion on god being all-knowing is very much up in the air... Well, maybe not up in the air so much as I am not exactly sure what all-knowing completely entails. I believe god is aware of the goings-on in the world. I believe he knows I was recently diagnosed with a tumor. I have no idea if he was aware of it before I was (or my doctor was...)

Basically, I believe that god is aware of everything that is happening, but not necessarily everything that is going to happen.

I don't know if that means I believe he is all-knowing or not, because I know some people believe god knows every. single. thing. that is ever going to happen.

Personally, other figures do not represent god to me. I have chosen Jesus, and no one measures up to him, imo. However, I respect all religious figures, and I believe I can learn from all of them. Jesus, imo, is not the only religious figure who has qualities that represent god to me, but he is the one that encompasses everything I believe god to be. All the other figures are lacking something, or hold something that I do not agree with. But that is just for me personally- I think everyone needs to find the religion that makes them the best person they can be, and the god that represents god to them the most. At the end of the day, however, we are all worshipping the same god. We all just see him a bit differently.

[milkncookies76]

My opinion on god being all-knowing is very much up in the air... Well, maybe not up in the air so much as I am not exactly sure what all-knowing completely entails. I believe god is aware of the goings-on in the world. I believe he knows I was recently diagnosed with a tumor. I have no idea if he was aware of it before I was (or my doctor was...)

Basically, I believe that god is aware of everything that is happening, but not necessarily everything that is going to happen.

I don't know if that means I believe he is all-knowing or not, because I know some people believe god knows every. single. thing. that is ever going to happen.

Personally, other figures do not represent god to me. I have chosen Jesus, and no one measures up to him, imo. However, I respect all religious figures, and I believe I can learn from all of them. Jesus, imo, is not the only religious figure who has qualities that represent god to me, but he is the one that encompasses everything I believe god to be. All the other figures are lacking something, or hold something that I do not agree with. But that is just for me personally- I think everyone needs to find the religion that makes them the best person they can be, and the god that represents god to them the most. At the end of the day, however, we are all worshipping the same god. We all just see him a bit differently.

This seems quite enlightened to me: it's a good outlook on the world,

And hey, I know God hasn't fixed all the world's problems yet (mandysue) but I feel I should apologize for some things I said.

While, obviously, a loving-God would not create evil, the many religions and denominations have different views on this. So whatever you want to believe, you do that. People have had religion for millions of years, and it's pretty stupid of me to expect people to change so quickly.

BUT, logically, I will always believe that there is no way for an all-loving, all-powerful God to exist.

[Belugaloo]

This seems quite enlightened to me: it's a good outlook on the world,

And hey, I know God hasn't fixed all the world's problems yet (mandysue) but I feel I should apologize for some things I said.

While, obviously, a loving-God would not create evil, the many religions and denominations have different views on this. So whatever you want to believe, you do that. People have had religion for millions of years, and it's pretty stupid of me to expect people to change so quickly.

BUT, logically, I will always believe that there is no way for an all-loving, all-powerful God to exist.

I am trying to wrap my head around this compliment. :lol:

No one has ever called me enlightened before.

[Belugaloo]

I wanted to clarify something I said two posts ago. After I wrote that I wasn't sure if god was aware of my tumor before I was, I kept feeling like something was "off" about the statement.

But I finally figured it out.. lol

Afterwards I said, (paraphrase)

"Basically I believe that god knows about everything that is going on in the world, but not necessarily everything that is going to happen."

So I kind of misspoke in my first statement. I still do not believe that god knew I was going to get the tumor. I think it is highly likely, however, that he knew of its existence before I did (because I most likely had this for a while before finding out.)

Just wanted to clarify. lol

[BrownieMomma]

This thread exploded and I skipped to the end.

I'm just gonna throw out a story of why I believe so much in free will and why it is so critical.

After I was raped by my fiancee and didn't tell him I was pregnant and I gave birth to a son, this is when I really gave my life to God - not just playing church anymore, a real decision in my heart and mind.

I was never convinced that it was the right thing for me to not tell that guy. I was afraid of him, not just because of the rape but he kept a loaded shotgun in his closet and he had threatened to kill my brother. He contacted me a few times after the rape, I broke up with him but he called or came by my apartment and would say things to the effect that he was going to kidnap me, make me marry him and carry me to a cabin in the mountains. No, I never called the police or did anything about the rape or the threats. Some of this did occur when I knew I was pregnant, as I found 2-3 weeks after the rape.

But I still did not have peace about my decision to not tell him. My parents wholly supported that, even though they have never known this was an incident of rape.

So I took my infant and we started going to church every time the doors flew open. My SBC church completely supported us - pro-life poster child. After a year or so I became a Sunday School teacher, teaching elem age kids. Loved it.

Sunday School teachers have to go on Monday night visitation. One time I went up to the church but I had no one to go out with so I stayed behind to write notecards. As I paged through the records, I was shocked to find my ex-fiancee.

There was a couple at my church who did prison ministry. They were in their 60's, caring, and had a rough life for many years and they did a great job of relating to prisoners, mostly men.

This couple had gone to visit someone but that person had already moved and my ex-fiancee was living at that address. He allowed the couple in to visit, very surprising.

So they had gone back twice after that to visit him. I used to pray and ask God for a sign if I should tell this guy about the baby or not. I asked God to send him to church. I had no right to ask that, but I was really humble and willing to do whatever it seemed to me what God's will was. I can be thick and needed a really clear sign in a way that I would understand.

X-F was receptive to visiting with the couple but he never did come to church. To this day, 25 years later, I am completely convinced that God was whispering to that man, that God was trying to woo him towards me, towards the baby, towards the church, towards Him. And that man exercised his free will and chose to do nothing.

Well I don't even really know what I'm trying to convey except that I think the Lord is not going to knock someone over the head to follow Him, but He does want everyone in fellowship with Him. I think His ways are more tender and subtle - that He asks, not demands or expects.

I can't explain the all-knowing. I wrestled that exact question for years. How can God be all-knowing yet people have free will? I don't have the answer. I don't know. It makes my brain want to blow up if I think about it too long. So existential for me. I personally came to the point that I would probably not understand this in my lifetime.

I go to a church now but I have my own personal beliefs and that's what I teach my children. They make different choices and have different ideas than me, but I believe it is critically important that they exercise their own free will and they are old enough to start being responsible to do it. So I don't make my 16yo son go to church anymore, I miss him so much, it makes me sad but I think this the right thing to do.

I don't believe in the versions of eternal torment I've been taught. I think there is something like Catholic purgatory or a Jewish idea I read recently, that hell is torment but there is a limited time spent there. Once you are cleansed of your sins, then you will leave hell. This makes complete sense to me. Eternal torment does not.

That will be no suffering does not make sense to me. I do think that events in life might have gone differently if people had made other choices at different points in life. For example, what if God tried to thwart Hitler by whispering to someone else to run against Hitler but that person didn't hear or ignored God?

I don't think God is too involved in the minutiae of our lives unless we ask Him. A lot.

As for prayer, I do think there is power in it. Even if there is no God, I think the community of people who are positively oriented toward each others and praying for the same thing, may or may not get that particular thing, but it draws them together and strengthens people through each other.

I have felt a lot of hurt and disappointment and anger in some of the posts I've read. I've gone through the same thing myself, including time periods of thinking that God is a crazy idea and it can't possibly be real.

I don't have all the perfect answers. I am probably not a good defender of the Faith. I do believe in God, Jesus and the whole nine yards.

[Belugaloo]

I don't believe in the versions of eternal torment I've been taught. I think there is something like Catholic purgatory or a Jewish idea I read recently, that hell is torment but there is a limited time spent there. Once you are cleansed of your sins, then you will leave hell. This makes complete sense to me. Eternal torment does not.

I really liked your post. I am sorry to hear that you were raped.

I always love hearing about other peoples opinions on afterlife... My personal belief is sort of "out there"

Personally, I love the idea that Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was absolutely free and everyone gets it. I mean, EVERYONE. I love the idea of every. single. person. being redeemed the moment they die and everyone going to heaven. I feel like that would be the perfect representation of what Jesus did- to have missionaries, murderers, lukewarm christians, atheists, etc. all together in heaven, completely redeemed from anything wrong they did on earth.

But I fully recognize that that idea is a bit out there. LOL

My alternative idea is that those "worthy" go on to heaven and those that aren't are reincarnated and get a do over.

[eh02]

Wow, this went far fast!

I don't have much to say regarding validity of anyone's personal beliefs. The very definition of faith, spirituality and "supernatural" beliefs in religion is that it is beyond anything we can perceive with our senses, so there's really no way to tell someone if they really do or don't perceive what they say they do, whether it makes any logical or rational sense etc. None of us can really speak for anyone's journey but our own.

That said, I do think it is important for those who are religious to understand where atheists/agnostics/anyone of iffy faith is coming from. I was raised Christian by parents that took their faith very seriously. For a long time, I went through all the motions and desperately (truly, desperately) tried to believe. I have memories of my teen years in particular just being absolutely terrified, unable to sleep at night, begging for God to help my believe. I don't WANT to not know what is "real."

But I just couldn't, and still can't, make myself believe in any sort of religious text or school of thought. I have some vague spiritual feelings that I am willing to acknowledge but don't give much thought to beyond that. One of the things that always bothered me was that there is no denying that the greatest predictor for your religion is the one you were raised in and the predominant religion of your community. That alone, just on a purely statistical sense, always made me think, "Hm, so what is the chance that the 'one true' religion just happens to be the one I was born into, out of all of the religions billions of people on this world believe or ever believed?" I couldn't convince myself.

Anyway, I just sometimes wish it was easier for people to acknowledge that atheists aren't just stubborn contrarians trying to stir the pot. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that personally, it was not easy for me to accept that I was not a Christian after being raised to feel utterly terrified of hell from birth. It's not something I wanted to do. I hear people talk about how comforting religion can be to them and in a way I am jealous, but at the same time, I have found that accepting what I truly, honestly believe, including acknowledging fear and uncertainty, has given me a greater sense of peace and confidence than I ever could have imagined.

[RosyDaisy]

WTH is going on here? I'm sure the fundies are laughing their asses off.

[16strong]

WTH is going on here? I'm sure the fundies are laughing their asses off.

Well we laugh our asses off at them enough, I suppose they're allowed to have a turn at it. :lol:

[Artemis]

Please excuse me, so sorry for going OT. I'm referring to a previous discussion where no satisfactory conclusion was reached.

Browniemomma, do you, personally, believe that homosexual acts are sinful?

I don't want a reason, or justification for your belief, just a simple yes or no will do.

Thank you.

[circularlogic]

Why is it necessary to belittle others beliefs?

I understand you do not agree with me. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me so why do you belittle people who are Christians?

Do you belittle Muslims? Buddhism? Hinduism? Judaism? These religions hold onto their beliefs as strongly as Christians do.

If I believe that my cat is a god what difference does that make to you? I am not forcing it on you I am not forcing you to pray to my cat so why do you care?

Agreed. I have been reading for pages now and while I always find religious debate fascinating, this has taken a turn toward the very wierd. Maybe we were colonized, who knows? By what? I have no clue. And I don't care. I try to be a good person. Most of the time people are good to me. I've had my losses. I've had triumph. I've made bad decisions (free will) and good ones. I've paid my own consequences. I don't really have a dog in this fight. But, belittling anyones belief is not a very nice thing to do. Unless you are evangelizing (not allowed here) then there is not room for trying to "trump" someone with your belief system. It seems that some of you are simply stating your beliefs and some are argumentative. Cut it out. Let's get back to Duggar snark!

edited to add:

I apologize. I glanced at the few posts that I skipped and saw that although things got deep, they seemed to calm down and not be so attacking on anyones belief system. so, please don't take my comment out of context. i just really don't like when people get all "judge-y" and arrogant on other people on this issue - and it was getting a little out of control.

[milkncookies76]

Agreed. I have been reading for pages now and while I always find religious debate fascinating, this has taken a turn toward the very wierd. Maybe we were colonized, who knows? By what? I have no clue. And I don't care. I try to be a good person. Most of the time people are good to me. I've had my losses. I've had triumph. I've made bad decisions (free will) and good ones. I've paid my own consequences. I don't really have a dog in this fight. But, belittling anyones belief is not a very nice thing to do. Unless you are evangelizing (not allowed here) then there is not room for trying to "trump" someone with your belief system. It seems that some of you are simply stating your beliefs and some are argumentative. Cut it out. Let's get back to Duggar snark!

edited to add:

I apologize. I glanced at the few posts that I skipped and saw that although things got deep, they seemed to calm down and not be so attacking on anyones belief system. so, please don't take my comment out of context. i just really don't like when people get all "judge-y" and arrogant on other people on this issue - and it was getting a little out of control.

Most people "belittle" the belief that the world is 6000 years old. In your mind, is this acceptable, or "not very nice"?

[neuroticcat]

I really liked your post. I am sorry to hear that you were raped.

I always love hearing about other peoples opinions on afterlife... My personal belief is sort of "out there"

Personally, I love the idea that Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was absolutely free and everyone gets it. I mean, EVERYONE. I love the idea of every. single. person. being redeemed the moment they die and everyone going to heaven. I feel like that would be the perfect representation of what Jesus did- to have missionaries, murderers, lukewarm christians, atheists, etc. all together in heaven, completely redeemed from anything wrong they did on earth.

But I fully recognize that that idea is a bit out there. LOL

My alternative idea is that those "worthy" go on to heaven and those that aren't are reincarnated and get a do over.

I am with you on this. I think I'm a universalist at heart. Robert Farrar Capon is my favorite modern theologian. Anyway, he describes this idea: that in Christ, God did away with religion and the old order of doing things. In essence, he flung open the gates and said, "Everyone is already in! Everyone is not only invited to the party, they are already there!" And the only ones who will be excluded are those who want out. In that sense it's like CS Lewis who said that while he believed in the existence of hell it was "locked from the inside."

Anyway, I think it's impossible to resolve a discussion on free will & suffering & God's goodness on the internet, but I can't resist throwing my two cents in - ha! Although the film Bruce Almighty wasn't meant to be a theological treatise - haha! - I think it brings insight into the reality that things are more complex than an all-knowing, all-good God snapping his fingers and resolving all problems everywhere. The complexity and ripple effect of that kind of magical thinking is unaccounted for in arguments where people want God to fix everything. Also, it's like that old folktale where everything seems to go wrong for a group of travellers - first, they find no space in the city and have to spend their nights in the forest. Then they are chased out of the forest by wolves and end up on the road or something. And while they think everything went wrong for them, really other things were happening. Because they couldn't make it to the city, they were spared it burning down. The wolves chased them, yes, but they were spared being taken by bandits. Anyway, I might be getting the details of the folktale wrong, but you get the idea. What seems to be suffering might in actuality be working good for us or for others.

Of course that doesn't account for things like the Holocaust. (I second someone's suggestion above to read what those who lived through the Holocaust and managed to hold onto their faith in God have to say about this). I think the Holocaust proves the existence of evil more than anything and for the anti-human force I'd warily call the devil. Could God have stopped it? I believe so. Why didn't he? Beyond the surface-y answer that says I think God takes seriously the gift of free will - he does let people do as they please and often people do horrible atrocious things. I don't understand it. He does not snap his fingers and fix everything. So what does God do about this kind of suffering?

I agree with all the typical arguments that say God is present in his people making things right - the good things people do - and I hold to a sort of belief that in the end he will make all things come right. But in the present moment, I think it is a bit of a: My God, My God why have you forsaken us? Which is why, though I'm not Catholic, I think the Catholic theology of suffering is particularly beautiful - there is a sense of the suffering of Christ encompassing all the sufferings of the world for all time - and we, too, share in his suffering as he takes on our suffering. I don't fully understand it, but I do think we have Jesus, the definition of God's love - in that he became incarnate and came into the suffering, dying world to...well, to die. So I don't think of it in a cerebal, logical way, but in a storied narrative way. The biblical narrative for me describes the truth of the human condition - that despite the good we do, we cause suffering - and God's answer to suffering.

[circularlogic]

Most people "belittle" the belief that the world is 6000 years old. In your mind, is this acceptable, or "not very nice"?

I'm hoping that you noticed - I was AGREEING with you.

Everyone has their opinion. That was simply mine. I am not engaging. I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I am, however, still fascinated with religious views (specifically, how religion and secular beliefs collide/co-exist) and have moved on to a really interesting interview done by PBS. It is on the topic of evolution with a little on original sin thrown in. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/relig ... ss_01.html

[nana sew dear]

All I can say is I'm a much better person as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. Your experience may differ.

[Belugaloo]

All I can say is I'm a much better person as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. Your experience may differ.

Do you mind if I ask you a question?

I think it is wonderful that you found the life that fulfills you the most- I am just curious as to what aspect of Christianity made you not as good a person as being an atheist does?

I am just truly curious- not being snarky or anything.

[nana sew dear]

Do you mind if I ask you a question?

I think it is wonderful that you found the life that fulfills you the most- I am just curious as to what aspect of Christianity made you not as good a person as being an atheist does?

I am just truly curious- not being snarky or anything.

I really don't mind. My spiritual journey lasted 50 years of my life and when I decided that I just didn't believe, it was then that I resigned my job of 5 years as a secretary for the local United Methodist Church.

What I experienced with Christianity was a certain amount of selfishness on my part and on the part of many others. I was either begging in prayer for some favor or life change or making gestures and sacrifices as my "fleece before the Lord". So yes, I volunteered my time, I helped others and tithed but for me it was my price for that ticket to heaven. I no longer do things for others with an ulterior motive. I give my time with a passion for whatever the cause is. I am seriously not saying that every person who professes a religion has these same issues, this was my failing.

You should know that the adjustment wasn't instantaneous. For several years I'd whisper a prayer when stressed by a difficult situation. It felt a little lonely at first, not having my spiritual crutch. It was also an adjustment to give up the concept of an afterlife but really, how can one heaven be a heaven to all?

I don't want anyone to think I never met a selfless Christian. My boss at my next job was a faithful Catholic and walked her talk every day without being overly pious. I know there are more like her and I send them all (my) blessings.

Life is long and hard and when you get to be my age you've been through a lot. I respect anyone who has found a way to get through life that works for them. All sorts of people make for an interesting world!

Having said that, the Duggars are in a cult full of unjustified judgment towards others and have brainwashed their kids. I have nothing against the minor children but those parents have a tell-all book in their future. :dance:

[RabbitKM]

Sorry, just reading these... I don't know if now is the best time to throw in my two cents (as it is 1:22 am) but here it is.

It is obviously very hard to understand why a person believes in God. You could run circles around me with logic and debate about the ability to be all-knowing and all-loving (hey, don't forget all-present!!). The thing is, though, nobody can prove God exists, just like nobody can prove God doesn't exist. You can't even know it is one way or the other. You have to believe it (or not believe it). Let me explain. You don't believe the sun will rise in the morning. You know it. You don't know that God exists or doesn't exist. You believe it. Therefore, if I believe one thing, and you believe another, whatever it is that we believe is our ultimate concern for that person.

Now, for the concept of God, I reject the idea that God is this person-like figure who sits up in heaven and decides whether or not he loves somebody enough to save them from cancer, or even an entire country from an earthquake. For me, I think that God, or my ultimate concern, is the presence of love. Jesus is the physical, human example of love. But why would "love" allow suffering? Quite simply, I think that nature (storms, disasters) and free will (human choices that cause suffering, like murder or the Holocaust) will run their course. But, I believe that God is present with and among the people who are suffering. Jesus was not a luxurious royal character who knew no suffering. He was tortured, beaten, and ultimately died. Though suffering in the world is going to occur every day regardless of my God's existence or not, those who suffer can take solace in Jesus's suffering.

Obviously, this is just my personal beliefs. Anyone can feel free to question or disagree. It should also be noted that I did not come up with these myself. These beliefs are a result of being raised Catholic and going to Catholic school and University. However, I was not insulated in just Catholic beliefs, and I do believe that I am at least somewhat educated on other religions. If I have kids one day, I will probably raise them Catholic, because there is something to be said about community. But I will also try to raise them to ask questions and to doubt, because I think that doubt is important for learning what it is that you really believe. I will also try to expose them to other belief systems and reject the idea that there is only one right answer.