Duggars by the Dozen - General Discussion - Part 9

[milkncookies76]

A dumbed-down analogy about "free will":

There is a 5th grade class. Tammy is getting bullied by Mandy and Suzie, but their teacher doesn't step in. She says she thinks Tammy needs to stand up for herself, and the other children in the class need to stick up for her. This doesn't happen, and eventually, Tammy tells her parents. Her parents tell the principal, and the teacher is reprimanded for failing to help Tammy.

If this was religion, the teacher would be worshipped.

[Belugaloo]

I'll elaborate a bit further on Jigsaw.

The man behind the villain was dying from terminal brain cancer. At some point after his diagnosis, he embraced the idea that certain people were unworthy of living, specifically those who had good lives; people who had health, wealth, or a loving family, but failed on some level to appreciate them. He began devising elaborate traps for his marks. Jigsaw would kidnap and ensnare his victims, and then give them a (complicated and unlikely) chance to escape. His belief was that the rare ones who survived would be more grateful for what they had in life and not take it for granted anymore.

Jigsaw also sometimes targeted those who annoyed him or interfered with his work.

I always thought that it was an interesting story regarding the psychological reasoning behind the madness. Too bad the Saw movies didn't actually do more with the concept. Really, it was just all about the torture porn after awhile.

Thank you for the background- that is really interesting.

[Mandysue]

I don't have a dog in this fight but-

But couple of months ago I was trashed because I implied (quite by accident) that other religions did not care about people like Christians.

If I can not imply that please do not say my God is a monster because there are things you about him you do understand.

[milkncookies76]

If my god is who you say he is, then he does not exist, and we can both be thankful for that.

May I ask a question? I assume you don't believe in god. Why do you care if I am worshiping something you consider to be a monster, if you do not even believe he exists?

And btw, I don't think anyone who is raped is raped because god wants them to be. I understand that that is where your logic leads you, but it is not where mine leads me.

If God is all-knowing, then everything that happens is his will. So, if someone is raped, that is his will.

First of all, your version of God is a monster, since he allows bad things to happen. I care that you're worshipping a monster because it's incredibly disturbing.

[milkncookies76]

I don't have a dog in this fight but-

But couple of months ago I was trashed because I implied (quite by accident) that other religions did not care about people like Christians.

If I can not imply that please do not say my God is a monster because there are things you about him you do understand.

If you worship a god you believe is "all-powerful," then that means he sits by and allows child abuse and genocide to happen. Therefore, he is a monster. And wait, since you DID imply that, that means I can call your god is a monster. Wooohooooo!!!

[grandmadugger]

If God is all-knowing, then everything that happens is his will. So, if someone is raped, that is his will.

First of all, your version of God is a monster, since he allows bad things to happen. I care that you're worshipping a monster because it's incredibly disturbing.

Are you a Calvinist? I've heard no one else talk about pre-destined other than the Calvinist. The rest seem to be all about humans have free will and can screw up no matter how mad it makes God.

[doggie]

Come on now we all know god made the earth as a giant zoo for humans. he is the caretaker and makes us do entertaining things for alien spectators.

[Rescinded and Mended]

Thank you for the background- that is really interesting.

You're welcome. :wink-kitty:

I can't speak for others in this thread, but I wonder if the original comparison between Jigsaw and God was made, at least in part, because the more we suffer, the closer we become to the gods that we choose, and that the only point in existing is to try and find the value in living even in the midst of our suffering.

[Mandysue]

If you worship a god you believe is "all-powerful," then that means he sits by and allows child abuse and genocide to happen. Therefore, he is a monster. And wait, since you DID imply that, that means I can call your god is a monster. Wooohooooo!!!

Since millions of people agree with me and believe in God I want you to apologize.

[milkncookies76]

Are you a Calvinist? I've heard no one else talk about pre-destined other than the Calvinist. The rest seem to be all about humans have free will and can screw up no matter how mad it makes God.

I'm not religious at all, so I'm obvs not Calvinist. And I'm not talking about salvation: I'm talking about bad stuff that happens on earth. In your version, it seems that bad stuff makes God mad but he doesn't do anything no matter how bad it is because free will!111!!!

[milkncookies76]

Since millions of people agree with me and believe in God I want you to apologize.

I'd be happy to apologize, as soon as God comes down and fixes all the world's problems. Since he's both all-loving, and all-powerful, it shouldn't take too long. Rest assured, you'll have your apology in no time!

[Belugaloo]

I'm not religious at all, so I'm obvs not Calvinist. And I'm not talking about salvation: I'm talking about bad stuff that happens on earth. In your version, it seems that bad stuff makes God mad but he doesn't do anything no matter how bad it is because free will!111!!!

I can't speak for others on this thread, but I have made it clear that I believe god works through his people. Therefore, he does do things when it makes him mad. Millions of christians and other people in the world help people every day. They work on preventing sex trafficking and help rehabilitate those who have left the industry. They become foster parents to children who were abused. They adopt children whose parents were killed. They found non profit organizations to help lift people out of poverty. They give money to the homeless. I could go on and on.

God does a lot, imo.

[Mandysue]

I'd be happy to apologize, as soon as God comes down and fixes all the world's problems. Since he's both all-loving, and all-powerful, it shouldn't take too long. Rest assured, you'll have your apology in no time!

So what are you doing to fix the world's problems? I assume (I know I know) you know how it should be done.

[milkncookies76]

I can't speak for others on this thread, but I have made it clear that I believe god works through his people. Therefore, he does do things when it makes him mad. Millions of christians and other people in the world help people every day. They work on preventing sex trafficking and help rehabilitate those who have left the industry. They become foster parents to children who were abused. They adopt children whose parents were killed. They found non profit organizations to help lift people out of poverty. They give money to the homeless. I could go on and on.

God does a lot, imo.

People do a lot.

God, eh, well since he's all powerful, could fix problems in a jiffy, but chooses to let people do it for him. If solving all the world's problems is easy for God, why would he have people do it for him? In fact, why would he create problems in the first place?

[milkncookies76]

So what are you doing to fix the world's problems? I assume (I know I know) you know how it should be done.

The real question should be, what is God doing? Since he's all-powerful, it should take him no time at all. Then you'll get your apology, and I know happy that will make you!!

[Mandysue]

The real question should be, what is God doing? Since he's all-powerful, it should take him no time at all. Then you'll get your apology, and I know happy that will make you!!

To be honest I don't really care if you apologize or not. Your are so inconsequential in my life that I will not lose sleep over it.

The only time you post you are angry and you reply until it is ridiculous. You yell for apologies when you are offended but when someone points out an offense you have made you make into a nonmatter.

I could give you irrefutable evidence that God existed and you would still argue his existence because you do not want to admit you are wrong.

[milkncookies76]

To be honest I don't really care if you apologize or not. Your are so inconsequential in my life that I will not lose sleep over it.

The only time you post you are angry and you reply until it is ridiculous. You yell for apologies when you are offended but when someone points out an offense you have made you make into a nonmatter.

I could give you irrefutable evidence that God existed and you would still argue his existence because you do not want to admit you are wrong.

Please do so.

And don't worry, I'm sure your God is coming soon to fix the world's problems, and I'll apologize! No need to get worked up.

Finally, did I ever say that Christians are not as compassionate as non-Christians? No? Well, I'm a kinder person than you.

[Swamptribe]

Please do so.

Ah, yeah, I'm kinda curious to see this irrefutable evidence as well. (remember the lesson of the bable fish)

Ok, and somebody mentioned original sin earlier. Original sin is a joke. Would not an all knowing god have known that Adam and Eve were going to go ahead and eat from the tree of knowledge before they were even created? Eve was framed. Original sin is a crock of horse hockey.

Free will is not compatible with an all knowing god. It's not like we can do something unexpected. and then god replied "Oh, I had no idea you were going to do that." If you can do that, god is not all knowing.

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.†not Marcus Aurelius

[Belugaloo]

Ah, yeah, I'm kinda curious to see this irrefutable evidence as well. (remember the lesson of the bable fish)

Ok, and somebody mentioned origina sin earlier. Original sin is a joke. Would not an all knowing god have known that Adam and Eve were going to go ahead and eat from the tree of knowledge before they were even created?

I am the one who mentioned original sin, and I made it pretty clear that I did not believe in it.

[milkncookies76]

I am the one who mentioned original sin, and I made it pretty clear that I did not believe in it.

Yeah, you just believe in an all-knowing, all-loving God who somehow created humans knowing they'd do terrible things. That makes a lot more sense.

[Belugaloo]

Yeah, you just believe in an all-knowing, all-loving God who somehow created humans knowing they'd do terrible things. That makes a lot more sense.

1. I never said I believed God was all-knowing. I just said I don't see all-knowing and all-loving as mutually exclusive.

2. I don't expect an atheist to understand my beliefs the same way I do not understand an atheists beliefs.

[milkncookies76]

1. I never said I believed God was all-knowing. I just said I don't see all-knowing and all-loving as mutually exclusive.

2. I don't expect an atheist to understand my beliefs the same way I do not understand an atheists beliefs.

Really? That's very interesting. Can you elaborate?

btw, never said I was an atheist.

[Belugaloo]

"Really? That's very interesting. Can you elaborate?

btw, never said I was an atheist."

Sorry, I thought you said that earlier.. I admit I did not check before I said you were.

What part do you find interesting/ want me to elaborate on? Sorry, I do better when I am asked a direct question! LOL

I mean it is obvious you are referring to the first part of my post, but it'd be better if you asked me a question directly otherwise there will inevitably be a lot of counter questions I could probably answer in an original post.

[Mandysue]

Why is it necessary to belittle others beliefs?

I understand you do not agree with me. I'm not trying to get you to agree with me so why do you belittle people who are Christians?

Do you belittle Muslims? Buddhism? Hinduism? Judaism? These religions hold onto their beliefs as strongly as Christians do.

If I believe that my cat is a god what difference does that make to you? I am not forcing it on you I am not forcing you to pray to my cat so why do you care?

[milkncookies76]

"Really? That's very interesting. Can you elaborate?

btw, never said I was an atheist."

Sorry, I thought you said that earlier.. I admit I did not check before I said you were.

What part do you find interesting/ want me to elaborate on? Sorry, I do better when I am asked a direct question! LOL

I mean it is obvious you are referring to the first part of my post, but it'd be better if you asked me a question directly otherwise there will inevitably be a lot of counter questions I could probably answer in an original post.

To you, what is God?