Duggars by the Dozen - General Discussion - Part 9

[happy atheist]

Part 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19312

Part 2: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19818

Part 3: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20491

Part 4: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20933

Part 5: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21259

Part 6: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21558

Part 7: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=21962

Part 8: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=22725

[Belugaloo]

Quote:

"But if they consider and look at the suffering, it's impossible to see God as loving."

Can you explain exactly how that is true? Ive not only experienced suffering firsthand, but i've also seen it firsthand. I still see God as loving (well, most of the time atleast... we all have our moments.)

[milkncookies76]

Quote:

"But if they consider and look at the suffering, it's impossible to see God as loving."

Can you explain exactly how that is true? Ive not only experienced suffering firsthand, but i've also seen it firsthand. I still see God as loving (well, most of the time atleast... we all have our moments.)

An all-loving, all-knowing God would not allow suffering to occur. Therefore, if God exists, he is either all-loving, OR all-knowing. Not both.

[BrownieMomma]

How would you have a world with no suffering? Even things as simple as breaking a leg to having a beloved parent die would occur. Or there would be some way to have absolutely nothing happen ever? Would there be a point to having babies?

[milkncookies76]

How would you have a world with no suffering? Even things as simple as breaking a leg to having a beloved parent die would occur. Or there would be some way to have absolutely nothing happen ever? Would there be a point to having babies?

God could have made a world where no one died, was injured, or was in pain. But he didn't. Therefore, he is either not all-powerful, or is kind of a jerk. Which is it?

[Coco]

God could have made a world where no one died, was injured, or was in pain. But he didn't. Therefore, he is either not all-powerful, or is kind of a jerk. Which is it?

and how sick and twisted to hinge it all on one decision (to eat the forbidden fruit) that could be blamed on one of the sexes for all time.

[BrownieMomma]

God could have made a world where no one died, was injured, or was in pain. But he didn't. Therefore, he is either not all-powerful, or is kind of a jerk. Which is it?

Or the whole point is have humanity with free will, with choices.

What would be the point of a perfect world?

[Coco]

Or the whole point is have humanity with free will, with choices.

What would be the point of a perfect world?

Then, why the unfairness on those who choose to do good with their free will and yet still suffer horrible things?

[Belugaloo]

An all-loving, all-knowing God would not allow suffering to occur. Therefore, if God exists, he is either all-loving, OR all-knowing. Not both.

How do you know that is true? If I had to pick, i'd certainly say god is all-loving over all-knowing, but I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

[Belugaloo]

Then, why the unfairness on those who choose to do good with their free will and yet still suffer horrible things?

Because shit happens.

That's really the only answer i've been able to come up with.

[eh02]

The thing that is weird to me, and was even when I was a Christian, is the idea that God is all powerful and can intervene in people's lives based on what is "meant to be" based on God's will. "Everything happens for a reason," "God doesn't make mistakes" etc. What's the point in praying for God to heal someone or bring someone in need help then?

I mean, if your child is dying and you believe that whether he lives or dies is up to God, and that God does things intentionally, doesn't make mistakes etc., is it not almost insulting to pray to God asking him to heal them? Is it not violating the whole "trust in God with all your heart" way of thinking to make very specific requests in prayer, as if you know better whether someone should live or die than God himself?

That's when it just gets almost offensive to me when people say they are "blessed." If you've been "blessed" and cured of your disease by the power of prayer and God's will, well, good for you - but you might want to keep that belief to yourself when you are around people whose children have died, or who are suffering chronic pain, or are declining from a terminal illness, or who are debilitated by mental illness, or who have been victims of violence or rape, or whatever their ailment or trial might be. Every time those people say God protected them or God saved them, they are saying God didn't bother to save someone else.

On top of all that, the Bible pretty clearly states that a lot of good people will go through difficult lives, never receiving any sort of financial reward or maybe any material reward at all. "Blessings," good health, money etc. are never considered some sort of payment for being Godly. This Duggar-spouted belief that God will provide quite literally with money is just plain offensive and not really Biblically sound to begin with.

[singsingsing]

I've never found the concept of suffering in this life incompatible with an all-knowing, all-loving God - it's the concept of people being doomed to an eternity of torment in hell simply because they didn't believe the right thing that I can't understand.

[Belugaloo]

I've never found the concept of suffering in this life incompatible with an all-knowing, all-loving God - it's the concept of people being doomed to an eternity of torment in hell simply because they didn't believe the right thing that I can't understand.

I agree with this completely. That is why I do not believe in people being doomed to an eternity of suffering.

[milkncookies76]

How do you know that is true? If I had to pick, i'd certainly say god is all-loving over all-knowing, but I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

Let's look at this logically. If an all-powerful God exists, he let the holocaust happen. Therefore, he is not loving.

An all-loving, but not all-powerful God would have been horrified by the holocaust, but the holocaust would have happened.

If an all-loving, all-powerful God exists, the holocaust would not have happened.

The holocaust happened. Therefore, if God exists, he is either all-loving, or all-knowing. Not both.

[Belugaloo]

Let's look at this logically. If an all-powerful God exists, he let the holocaust happen. Therefore, he is not loving.

I guess I just don't see it that way (and I am a very logical person.)

But that is okay... I actually find other peoples beliefs to be very fascinating.

[milkncookies76]

I guess I just don't see it that way (and I am a very logical person.)

But that is okay... I actually find other peoples beliefs to be very fascinating.

Okay. If you're so "logical," explain how an all-loving, all-powerful God allowed the holocaust to happen.

[Belugaloo]

Okay. If you're so "logical," explain how an all-loving, all-powerful God allowed the holocaust to happen.

Did I offend you? If I did, I apologize. It wasn't my intention, but your post makes me feel like I did.

I'll be the first to admit that religion is not always logical. I said I am a very logical person- I did not say that every. single. thing I believe can be boiled down to logic.

My personal beliefs are that God hates that the holocaust happened. However, I do not believe in a god that just does things for us- for example, I do not think god will give me a good parking space because I prayed for it (and just to make it clear- I am not comparing the holocaust to a parking spot. I was just trying to say that I do not believe in a god who is ultra-concerned about my parking needs like some fundies do). God gave us free will. I believe that god works through his people- and his people can be anyone, of any religion, who are willing to do his work (which, imo, is being a good person,helping people, etc.)

So, I don't contribute the holocaust to god in the same way I do not contribute it to satan. I blame the holocaust on the people who did it. I believe they were the opposite of godly people, and I believe god wept over such a thing happening, but I do not believe god just *poofs* things away when they make him unhappy. I believe he works through his people, and whether or not people are willing to do his work is what is dependent on whether or not bad things will be condoned or not.

[milkncookies76]

Did I offend you? If I did, I apologize. It wasn't my intention, but your post makes me feel like I did.

I'll be the first to admit that religion is not always logical. I said I am a very logical person- I did not say that every. single. thing I believe can be boiled down to logic.

My personal beliefs are that God hates that the holocaust happened. However, I do not believe in a god that just does things for us- for example, I do not think god will give me a good parking space because I prayed for it (and just to make it clear- I am not comparing the holocaust to a parking spot. I was just trying to say that I do not believe in a god who is ultra-concerned about my parking needs like some fundies do). God gave us free will. I believe that god works through his people- and his people can be anyone, of any religion, who are willing to do his work (which, imo, is being a good person,helping people, etc.)

So, I don't contribute the holocaust to god in the same way I do not contribute it to satan. I blame the holocaust on the people who did it. I believe they were the opposite of godly people, and I believe god wept over such a thing happening, but I do not believe god just *poofs* things away when they make him unhappy. I believe he works through his people, and whether or not people are willing to do his work is what is dependent on whether or not bad things will be condoned or not.

Why not? If you believe he is all-powerful, he could have done this, yet he chose to watch the people he supposedly loves suffer. Do you see that your version of god is basically Jigsaw from the saw movies? He COULD make the pain stop, but you and others have to do something to make it stop yourselves? Why do you want to worship Jigsaw?

[Belugaloo]

Why not? If you believe he is all-powerful, he could have done this, yet he chose to watch the people he supposedly loves suffer. Do you see that your version of god is basically Jigsaw from the saw movies? He COULD make the pain stop, but you and others have to do something to make it stop yourselves? Why do you want to worship Jigsaw?

I believe god give us free will... I also have no idea who Jigsaw is. :lol:

Your last post reminds me of something an acquaintance once said. His response to the "why does god let bad things happen..." question was that if god did not allow bad things to happen, then he would have to destroy everyone the moment they were born because of original sin. Then we'd never get a chance to be saved and that'd suck..

Now I don't believe that we are born sinful- so I disagree with what he said... But I still found his explanation interesting.

But, I don't think any explanation I have would satisfy you (and that's okay.)

I just responded because I didn't want you to think I was just flouncing.

[milkncookies76]

I believe god give us free will... I also have no idea who Jigsaw is. :lol:

Your last post reminds me of something an acquaintance once said. His response to the "why does god let bad things happen..." question was that if god did not allow bad things to happen, then he would have to destroy everyone the moment they were born because of original sin. Then we'd never get a chance to be saved and that'd suck..

Now I don't believe that we are born sinful- so I disagree with what he said... But I still found his explanation interesting.

But, I don't think any explanation I have would satisfy you (and that's okay.)

I just responded because I didn't want you to think I was just flouncing.

Jigsaw is the VILLAIN (key word) from the saw movies. Essentially, he kidnaps people and puts them into these traps that they need to escape. If they escape, they're freed, if they don't, they die. Similar to your God, Jigsaw had the ability to let the people go, but he doesn't because they need to escape themselves. I ask again, why do you want to worship Jigsaw?

If God is all-knowing and all-loving, he could just automatically make it so that everyone would be "saved." But he didn't.

[Belugaloo]

Jigsaw is the VILLAIN (key word) from the saw movies. Essentially, he kidnaps people and puts them into these traps that they need to escape. If they escape, they're freed, if they don't, they die. Similar to your God, Jigsaw had the ability to let the people go, but he doesn't because they need to escape themselves. I ask again, why do you want to worship Jigsaw?

If God is all-knowing and all-loving, he could just automatically make it so that everyone would be "saved." But he didn't.

Actually, I believe everyone is saved. Christian or not, religious or not. I believe god has saved us all.

I don't want to worship Jigsaw (I lol just typing that..), and I honestly don't see your comparison of my god to Jigsaw.

1. I don't believe god puts people in situations that will cause them harm.

2. Again- free will.

3. Does Jigsaw send people to help the people that need to free themselves? I believe god does. (Again, my previous post stated that I believed god works through his people...)

I might not be answering your question the way you want me to. Honestly, I just don't see the comparison between Jigsaw and god, and NO I would not want to worship Jigsaw.

[milkncookies76]

Actually, I believe everyone is saved. Christian or not, religious or not. I believe god has saved us all.

I don't want to worship Jigsaw (I lol just typing that..), and I honestly don't see your comparison of my god to Jigsaw.

1. I don't believe god puts people in situations that will cause them harm.

2. Again- free will.

3. Does Jigsaw send people to help the people that need to free themselves? I believe god does. (Again, my previous post stated that I believed god works through his people...)

I might not be answering your question the way you want me to. Honestly, I just don't see the comparison between Jigsaw and god, and NO I would not want to worship Jigsaw.

If God is all-knowing, then every time someone is in a certain situation, they are there because God wants them to be there. If I am being raped, I am there because God wants me to be raped.

It would cause much less suffering if God just did things himself. After all, if he's all powerful, he can do this. But he doesn't.

I understand that it's hard for you to comprehend that your God is a monster, but that's the way it is.

Plus, ya know, you're worshipping a guy who lets horrible things happen. He could make them stop, but he doesn't because he wants his people to do it, even if it means more pain and suffering. So, basically Jigsaw.

[FJismyheadship]

erinpavlina.com/blog/2007/05/picking-our-parents-and-our-life-circumstances/

[Belugaloo]

If God is all-knowing, then every time someone is in a certain situation, they are there because God wants them to be there. If I am being raped, I am there because God wants me to be raped.

It would cause much less suffering if God just did things himself. After all, if he's all powerful, he can do this. But he doesn't.

I understand that it's hard for you to comprehend that your God is a monster, but that's the way it is.

Plus, ya know, you're worshipping a guy who lets horrible things happen. He could make them stop, but he doesn't because he wants his people to do it, even if it means more pain and suffering. So, basically Jigsaw.

If my god is who you say he is, then he does not exist, and we can both be thankful for that.

May I ask a question? I assume you don't believe in god. Why do you care if I am worshiping something you consider to be a monster, if you do not even believe he exists?

And btw, I don't think anyone who is raped is raped because god wants them to be. I understand that that is where your logic leads you, but it is not where mine leads me.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I'll elaborate a bit further on Jigsaw.

The man behind the villain was dying from terminal brain cancer. At some point after his diagnosis, he embraced the idea that certain people were unworthy of living, specifically those who had good lives; people who had health, wealth, or a loving family, but failed on some level to appreciate them. He began devising elaborate traps for his marks. Jigsaw would kidnap and ensnare his victims, and then give them a (complicated and unlikely) chance to escape. His belief was that the rare ones who survived would be more grateful for what they had in life and not take it for granted anymore.

Jigsaw also sometimes targeted those who annoyed him or interfered with his work.

I always thought that it was an interesting story regarding the psychological reasoning behind the madness. Too bad the Saw movies didn't actually do more with the concept. Really, it was just all about the torture porn after awhile.