Duggar Aviation LLC

[guitar_villain]

They might have picked it up fairly cheap...

http://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucd ... CI14464004

Unless we know the condition of the airplane it's almost impossible to tell it's actual value. If the previous owner kept it clean, upgraded the engine, put in a glass cockpit and the like it could go for six figures easily. Or you could have the one in the listing above where the annual inspection costs might well be more than the auction bid, meaning it's effectively worthless.

The Ciruss is a newer airplane and is well into six figures if it's not completely unflyable

[gustava]

MODS....Would it be possible to change the title of this thread to remove Christian Tour?

[Librul]

I love this thread. It's educational, snarky and interesting--color me easily entertained....

[DuggarWatch]

Unless we know the condition of the airplane it's almost impossible to tell it's actual value. If the previous owner kept it clean, upgraded the engine, put in a glass cockpit and the like it could go for six figures easily. Or you could have the one in the listing above where the annual inspection costs might well be more than the auction bid, meaning it's effectively worthless.

There's no way an old Cessna is going to be worth that kind of money. Here's a few for sale right now:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid= ... 7.3779j0j8

[halcionne]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Here are screengrabs of the Duggar boys' license info, taken two months ago from faa.gov. I just checked again and everything is still the same. I don't see anything about IFR or VFR ratings there; how do you know what JD's rating is, DuggarWatch?

[DuggarWatch]

Here are screengrabs of the Duggar boys' license info, taken two months ago from faa.gov. I just checked again and everything is still the same. I don't see anything about IFR or VFR ratings there; how do you know what JD's rating is, DuggarWatch?

According to that, it took John David more than two years to get his pilot license. It takes about four weeks if you study full-time and 10 – 12 months if you just train on weekends. Not only that, but his medical expired in 2013! With that track record, there's no way he has an instrument rating now.

The designation for Instruments: PPINST

Multiengine Land: PPAMEL

Multiengine Land Center Thrust: PPAMELC

The Student Pilot license for Josiah just means he is still training and doesn't have a pilot license yet. He can only fly under the supervision of a flight instructor. He can fly solo, but only if the flight instructor is supervising from the ground and he can carry no passengers but the instructor. (He can fly as a passenger with John David, but John David cannot fly as his passenger.)

[halcionne]

According to that, it took John David more than two years to get his pilot license. It takes about four weeks if you study full-time and 10 – 12 months if you just train on weekends. Not only that, but his medical expired in 2013! With that track record, there's no way he has an instrument rating now.

The designations for Instruments: PPINST

Multiengine Land: PPAMEL

Multiengine Land Center Thrust: PPAMELC

The Student Pilot license for Josiah just means he is still training and doesn't have a pilot license yet. He can only fly under the supervision of a flight instructor. He can fly solo, but only if the flight instructor is supervising from the ground and he can carry no passengers but the instructor. (He can fly as a passenger with John David, but John David cannot fly as his passenger.)

But surely JD's medical was valid when the license was issued in Dec 2014. I'm not sure you're interpreting the information correctly.

And I still want to know where you got JD's VFR/IFR status. It's not that I doubt your claims--I just want to see for myself and learn more about all of this.

[gustava]

According to that, it took John David more than two years to get his pilot license. It takes about four weeks if you study full-time and 10 – 12 months if you just train on weekends. Not only that, but his medical expired in 2013! With that track record, there's no way he has an instrument rating now.

The designation for Instruments: PPINST

Multiengine Land: PPAMEL

Multiengine Land Center Thrust: PPAMELC

The Student Pilot license for Josiah just means he is still training and doesn't have a pilot license yet. He can only fly under the supervision of a flight instructor. He can fly solo, but only if the flight instructor is supervising from the ground and he can carry no passengers but the instructor. (He can fly as a passenger with John David, but John David cannot fly as his passenger.)

It took me some time to solo; I'm not a natural pilot. It would not surprise me if JD had to negotiate with the Boob for the money to fly.....or JD paid for the lessons and flight time himself.

[DuggarWatch]

But surely JD's medical was valid when the license was issued in Dec 2014. I'm not sure you're interpreting the information correctly.

And I still want to know where you got JD's VFR/IFR status. It's not that I doubt your claims--I just want to see for myself and learn more about all of this.

I'm just looking at the information you posted. A first class medical certificate is good for one year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_c ... for_pilots

If he had an instrument rating to fly under IFR (Instrument Flight Rules), his license would have the designation: PPINST.

To get the initial pilot license takes a minimum of 40 flight hours. For most people, it takes 65 – 70 flight hours. For IFR rating (flying by instruments for night flying and times of low visibility), you need an additional 100 flying hours of experience and the course costs between $7,000 and $9,000 (includes plane rental fees). The ground coursework involves advanced algebra, trigonometry and physics. And, even with an IFR rating, John David still couldn't fly paying clients. For that, a commercial pilot's license is needed.

Since it took two years for him to get the pilot license, it could take him four years to be certified to fly under IFR.

Plus, with the planes Daddy bought, he's going to have to rent another plane to get certified for retractable landing gear.

Flying is a great hobby, but a career for John David it is not! Plus, to work as a pilot for a commercial airline requires a college degree and further certifications as a jet pilot, etc. There are a lot of people in line for those jobs and an entry-level co-pilot for a regional carrier will get a salary of about $2,000 a month.

[hotsoftlight]

I love this thread. It's educational, snarky and interesting--color me easily entertained....

Same here! I just read this ENTIRE thread while procrastinating this afternoon. :shock:

[MisUndrstd]

Was it ever confirmed that they flew to Hattiesburg, MS? The only two things I can think of in Hattiesburg are the University of South Mississippi (this would be the time of year they begin Freshman orientation) or the sex addiction facility that Tiger Woods went too. There is not much to do in Hattiesburg.. just some restaurants and a big mall. It seems odd they would fly there.

[DuggarWatch]

Was it ever confirmed that they flew to Hattiesburg, MS? The only two things I can think of in Hattiesburg are the University of South Mississippi (this would be the time of year they begin Freshman orientation) or the sex addiction facility that Tiger Woods went to. There is not much to do in Hattiesburg.. just some restaurants and a big mall. It seems odd they would fly there.

You may be on to something here! :o

[Evenkeel]

There's a professional flight school there, too, but I don't know if that means anything. I didn't find anything with a direct Duggar/Hattiesburg link either.

[MisUndrstd]

There's a professional flight school there, too, but I don't know if that means anything. I didn't find anything with a direct Duggar/Hattiesburg link either.

With Josiah in training and the stay lasting several days, I do believe this is probable.

[Evenkeel]

Oooooh. 11 months ago there was a picture of Smuggar and Marcus with the caption "Chillin with the little man in Hattiesburg, Mississippi tonight" on Smuggar's Instagram. Very interesting.

ETA: According to a FJ post it was for some McDaniel political person who lost on June 25, 2014.

[halcionne]

I'm just looking at the information you posted. A first class medical certificate is good for one year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_c ... for_pilots

If he had an instrument rating to fly under IFR (Instrument Flight Rules), his license would have the designation: PPINST.

To get the initial pilot license takes a minimum of 40 flight hours. For most people, it takes 65 – 70 flight hours. For IFR rating (flying by instruments for night flying and times of low visibility), you need an additional 100 flying hours of experience and the course costs between $7,000 and $9,000 (includes plane rental fees). The ground coursework involves advanced algebra, trigonometry and physics. And, even with an IFR rating, John David still couldn't fly paying clients. For that, a commercial pilot's license is needed.

Since it took two years for him to get the pilot license, it could take him four years to be certified to fly under IFR.

Plus, with the planes Daddy bought, he's going to have to rent another plane to get certified for retractable landing gear.

Flying is a great hobby, but a career for John David it is not! Plus, to work as a pilot for a commercial airline requires a college degree and further certifications as a jet pilot, etc. There are a lot of people in line for those jobs and an entry-level co-pilot for a regional carrier will get a salary of about $2,000 a month.

I'm trying to understand your line of thinking--here's what I have so far:

1. JD got his medical in 2012 but wasn't licensed until 2014, so you infer that it took him two years to earn the license, which is longer than expected, or typical.
2. According to the wikipedia article, first class medical certification is valid for one year.
3. If the initial training took two years to clock 40-70 hours of flight time, it will take him four years to accomplish the 100 additional hours necessary for IFR, aka flight by instruments, which includes night and inclement weather. Coursework includes high level math. And it's expensive.
4. Pursuing a career as a private airline pilot is impractical because there are many better qualified candidates, low pay, etc.

To which I respond (again, not trying to pick a fight or defend the Duggars, just looking for accurate information):

1. I (we?) don't know if the faa date of issue is the initial date of licensure. I have had professional licenses (not aviation-related, of course) that, upon renewing, didn't reflect the previous years of licensure; I was issued new certificates with new issue dates. I have no idea if that's the case with faa licensing; maybe you do.
2. JD has a first class medical certificate, but he is performing third class operations. From the article:

   First Class Medical Certificate: necessary to exercise the privileges of an airline transport pilot license or certificate. In the United States, it expires after (12 calendar months Under 40) (6 months over 40) for those operations requiring a First-Class Medical Certificate; 12 calendar months for those operations requiring only a Second-Class Medical Certificate; or 24 or 60 calendar months, as set forth in 61.23, for those operations requiring only a Third-Class Medical Certificate.

   Let's look at 61.23 (bolding is mine):

   If you hold a first class certificate and on the date of examination for your most recent medical certificate you were under age 40, and you are conducting an operation requiring a recreational pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate, a flight instructor certificate (when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon), a student pilot certificate, or a sport pilot certificate (when not using a U.S. driver's license as medical qualification), then your medical certificate expires, for that operation, at the end of the last day of the 60th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the medical certificate.

   It doesn't make much sense that JD has a first class medical certificate since he can't conduct first class operations, but when do the Duggars ever make sense. :lol:
3. I agree that higher math will probably be quite a challenge for JD, but he seems motivated and he's got all the time in the world to practice and study (same goes for clocking those flight hours). I suspect, but don't know, that he went to ALERT flight school. I wonder if they offer IFR training. They sure do! (sarcasm is directed at Gothard programs, not DuggarWatch) I am happy to report that the ALERT Aviation Program is FAA approved, unlike so many of their "programs" that don't bother with accredition or licensing. alertacademy.com/alert/blog/course/aviation/
   I disagree (we don't have enough information to judge, imo) that he took a long time to get his initial license and that he will consequently take a long time to earn the IFR rating. For all we know, he has it already. I know you dispute this. I would like to compare JD's airman inquiry from faa.gov (which I pictured upthread) to an IFR-rated pilot's airman inquiry. That won't happen, since inquiries require you to answer security questions (any self-respecting FJer should be able to answer them correctly for the Duggars, and I did [it occurs to me now that I probably shouldn't have shared the information on the forum and I won't do it again.])
4. I don't actually think this is his goal, so I don't have much to say about it. I think he will fly his family around, and if he can get a commercial rating, he'll do charter flights for fundies/friends of JB.

I'm still thinking about whether or not JB rents these planes to other pilots. He would have to give up control for that, and he's a control freak. And the planes won't be at his disposal whenever he decides he needs to go somewhere. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that JD has an IFR rating and can fly at night and in bad weather. He flew Joseph to ALERT camp when Joe was what, 18? 19? He's 20.5 now; that's a lot of time for experience and training. I'm being redundant now, so I guess I should stop. Apologies for the wall of text. :D

[halcionne]

You may be on to something here! :o

I like this hypothesis! :lol:

[Nic]

I like this hypothesis! :lol:

Fun hypothesis, but for Joshie to go to sex addiction facility, he'd have to admit there was a need, and that would contradict that JB did the right thing to begin with...

I don't see anyone qualified to attend Uni of S Mississippi (also I know when I've been in Cessna's there wasn't availability (space/weight) for what I would call moving away to school luggage.

My 2 more MUNDANE and UNFUN theories:

1) non-Duggar flying that plane

2) they have a friend out there where a Duggar or 2 can just get away from the heat

I think #2 is less likely, bc look at the trip... the plane was bouncing around airport hopping.

[gustava]

halcionne: I agree that higher math will probably be quite a challenge for JD.....

The mathematics of flight were a challenge for me (PhD and all) but math comes easily for some, regardless of their education. I'm more than willing to accept that JD is both good at math and is a good pilot. I was neither.

[guitar_villain]

There's no way an old Cessna is going to be worth that kind of money. Here's a few for sale right now:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid= ... 7.3779j0j8

Check a bit wider. There's a 1976 172M on one of the for sale sites for $199k. Low time on engine and full glass cockpit upgrade. I doubt they'll get that but it's not impossible. A bunch of others that are similar are close to 100k

That said, my guess is that theirs is a lot closer to purchase cost = annual inspection cost though.

I would be interested in seeing how any of them will handle the math for instrument, or even private pilot. A guy I did training with way back when basically never got his license because he was afraid he couldn't pass the ground test- despite being a competent pilot and a master mechanic who could fix stuff on a plane without a second thought, the fairly basic math you need to do time/speed/distance/fuel burn and weight and balance freaked him out.

[gustava]

Halcionne.....How did FJ miss the second plane? I'm not criticizing you, as I worship you, but the Duggars having two winged things???? If they are both under LLC,perhaps both are rental and tracking them is a bit like tracking fireflies. Sigh.........

[DuggarWatch]

Unless we know the condition of the airplane it's almost impossible to tell it's actual value. If the previous owner kept it clean, upgraded the engine, put in a glass cockpit and the like it could go for six figures easily. Or you could have the one in the listing above where the annual inspection costs might well be more than the auction bid, meaning it's effectively worthless.

This model has a problematic 160 HP engine and it is difficult to repaint the textured exterior of the plane. It has no air conditioning, and it may not have instruments for IFR flying.

It sold new in 1977 for $22,300.00, adjusted for inflation that would be $89,970.92 in 2015. It's now 38 years old! If it has less than 6,000 of frame hours, less than 1,500 since major overhaul on the engine, and has been hangared, it's worth about $35,000.

And, no, you can't just put a different kind of engine on this plane. The glass cockpit didn't come out until 2005 and you can't install that in a 1977 model either. :shrug:

[DuggarWatch]

With Josiah in training and the stay lasting several days, I do believe this is probable.

John David and Josiah take their flying lessons out of Bentonville, AR.

Instruction is always with the same instructor until the level of licensure is achieved. The exception to this is when you are getting certified for a different type of aircraft that you have not flown before.

[DuggarWatch]

I'm still thinking about whether or not JB rents these planes to other pilots. He would have to give up control for that, and he's a control freak. And the planes won't be at his disposal whenever he decides he needs to go somewhere. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that JD has an IFR rating and can fly at night and in bad weather. He flew Joseph to ALERT camp when Joe was what, 18? 19? He's 20.5 now; that's a lot of time for experience and training. I'm being redundant now, so I guess I should stop. Apologies for the wall of text. :D

John David didn't fly a Duggar plane for that. He rented a 1983 Cessna C 182RG for that flight and his instructor was with him because he was still flying on a Student Pilot license then and only had 30 hours of logged flight time.

The plane he rented costs $175 per hour (includes fuel) and his flight instructor charges $40 per hour. Also, that plane cannot be rented without an instructor unless a pilot has logged 100 flight hours as PIC (Pilot in Command).

He didn't get his Pilot license until December 14, 2014, and if you don't believe the FAA who actually issues the license, it's also what his mom Michelle said on January 14, 2015:

"John just finished up his pilots license and is staying busy with construction and police work."

http://www.inquisitr.com/1754148/jana-d ... hQp9Xrf.99"

[halcionne]

Halcionne.....How did FJ miss the second plane? I'm not criticizing you, as I worship you, but the Duggars having two winged things???? If they are both under LLC,perhaps both are rental and tracking them is a bit like tracking fireflies. Sigh.........

I haven't found much, really; I tend to just glom onto things others have shared. DuggarWatch did independent research and found the Cirrus, though I still don't understand where she or he got that information. DW, I don't mean to be repetitive or dense, but I still don't know how you found it, and I would like to look at it myself. I'm sure you understand, as a person who looks things up on your own as well. Please share your source for Duggar Aviation Cessna ownership. :)