The Courtship of Jessa Duggar - Part 2

[Mela99]

I wonder if she would have chosen to have a kid every year until she practically had to carry her reproductive organs around in a wheelbarrow if she didn't have a husband, who, in all of his superior penisy intelligence, was better equipped to know if her body was even capable of supporting another healthy pregnancy or if she even wanted to.

Idk why, but this line kills me. Superior penisy intelligence. QFT.

[thekate]

I like how the article from thestir says Michelle and Ben are dating. Jessica's opinion and feelings don't count, only her parent's! It would only be more accurate if it said Jim Bob and Ben were dating.

[mrs]

If I was in Jessa's shoes, I would be terrified. Just curious, do we have any members here that have been through a courtship or arrange marriage ?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Do we ever get to know what JESSA thinks? How SHE feels? We have heard from Jim Bob and Michelle (who do not count, really) and we had a small peek into Ben's feelings... what does Jessa think? Will they show this on tv or will her parents continually talk for her?

Yeah, that bugs me as well, she is never quoted in these articles. Jessa is one of the most important people in this, and yet we dont know her feelings or thoughts. We dont want to hear from Michelle and Jimbob on how courtship works, or how she is not allowed to hold hands with Ben or give him anything more than a 30 second side hug. We want to hear from Jessa-what she thinks of Ben, how they met, what made her attracted to him, and how they act together as a couple.

[klavierspieler]

Our dorm was struck by lightning once. We all had to go out in the rain. There were several girls in less than full attire--a few who had come out of the showers (not the smartest place to be in a lightning storm...). Guys from the men's dorm across the way came over to "rescue" us, but everyone decided to take refuge in the other women's dorm next door instead and some of its residents offered up bathrobes and such to those who needed something.

The PCC story seems to be true. They claimed no one would be punished if it were a real fire, but in a large building, how would you know?

As of when I was at PCC (08-09), girls were allowed to wear pajama pants, but only inside our rooms. We were not even allowed to wear pj pants down the hall to prayer group, that had to be a skirt or culottes. And the having to put on a skirt before going outside during a fire drill is 100% true. They even have it on a notice posted on the back of all the doors in the women's dorms. I have no idea if anyone ever tried to go out without a skirt during a drill, so I have no idea if they would have been punished or not.

[freejugar]

I can imagine the wedding having some cheesy moment, obviously set up, like when Josh didn't have the rings and had to go run to get them.

[Minerva]

(This is not an attack.)

This common in the girls world. We get a person who has all the qualities but in the back of our mind, we think there is someone who is better than this. This is the flaw with modern dating. The one we are with is not good enough, so chase the 20% thinking that someone out there is better. Hopefully, Jessa is conscious of this flaw that is in every woman. There are no perfect men, but we find a person who is right for us and we can deal with whatever flaw that possess and still love them unconditionally.

:evil-eye: I'm almost afraid to ask which pop psychologist you heard that from.

[No Cure for Stupid]

I can imagine the wedding having some cheesy moment, obviously set up, like when Josh didn't have the rings and had to go run to get them.

I don't think so. Since Jessa's the first girl to marry, and the Duggars are realizing that a lot of people are hypercritical of them, they have to make the wedding perfect to show that Jessa loves this guy and wants to spend her life with him. They have to show that courtship and "waiting for Prince Charming" is perfect.

[sunshine]

:evil-eye: I'm almost afraid to ask which pop psychologist you heard that from.

No psychologist needed. It is a common practice and can be observed in our community. Women or men will date or marry someone with the qualities they need but will think there has to be someone better. So, they leave them for someone "better."

[Peas n carrots]

No psychologist needed. It is a common practice and can be observed in our community. Women or men will date or marry someone with the qualities they need but will think there has to be someone better. So, they leave them for someone "better."

Ummm...why would you marry someone you don't feel is quite right for you? Isn't that setting the marriage up for some serious problems down the line?

[singsingsing]

Ummm...why would you marry someone you don't feel is quite right for you? Isn't that setting the marriage up for some serious problems down the line?

Absolutely. But it is true that there are people who are so absurdly picky that they reject someone whom they genuinely loved and who would've made a great spouse because they think they could do better. I read something written by a woman once who was herself now over forty, but refused to date any man who looked like he was over forty. These people spend a lot of time wondering why they're still not married.

Edit: I would definitely not say that this is 'a flaw in every woman'. :roll: There are probably more women out there who sadly are not picky enough.

[AnywhereButHere]

Ummm...why would you marry someone you don't feel is quite right for you? Isn't that setting the marriage up for some serious problems down the line?

Honestly, I remember my mom saying something like this when I was a teenager. She said something along the lines of, don’t look for someone “betterâ€, because there isn’t necessarily someone better out there. She was trying to tell me that marriage sometimes takes work and that it won’t always be roses and candy and agreeing with everything each other says and does. Sometimes you are going to fight and disagree, and the key is that there is no one out there you will agree with 100% of the time. She was not advocating staying with an abuser by any means, and maybe some people do just fall out of love and shouldn’t stay together anymore. Her point was though, that if you keep looking for something better, if you keep comparing your spouse to the hot guy at the gym, or the woman you had a great conversation with at the office lunch, you’ll reach that point where you become dissatisfied with your life that much faster, stop putting the work in to make your relationship successful, and maybe try to move on to recapture some excitement you feel you’re missing, only to find that the new person has their flaws as well.

This however is hardly a "woman's flaw". That’s rather insulting to women everywhere. I think everyone, at some point in their lives, wonders “what ifâ€. It’s what you do next that counts, and maybe in some cases the “what if†is truly better, but a lot of thought does need to go into it.

Sorry – long ramble with a point in there somewhere – I think…

[louisa05]

But it is true that there are people who are so absurdly picky that they reject someone whom they genuinely loved and who would've made a great spouse because they think they could do better. I read something written by a woman once who was herself now over forty, but refused to date any man who looked like he was over forty. These people spend a lot of time wondering why they're still not married.

Edit: I would definitely not say that this is 'a flaw in every woman'. :roll: There are probably more women out there who sadly are not picky enough.

I think this is most likely to be women who have absorbed the "prince charming" Disneyfied culture. I have a friend who is 42 years old and has never been on a second date. She has had plenty of very good first dates, but she turns down a second every time because she is expecting some huge romantic moment on a first date to prove that he is "the one". She also has one of those lists that young evangelical women are told to make of all the traits of her perfect spouse. So she is looking for a man who will sing to her and wears the right socks and a whole bunch of other stupid and rather shallow crap that no person will ever live up to. I thought maybe, by now, she would see how ridiculous this all is. But she told me last spring that "he is out there" and "God will bring him".

[singsingsing]

Plenty of liberal feminist women do it too. They either have a string of dates or a string of long term relationships, but they always end up rejecting the guy because they figure there's something better out there. Women (and men) like this don't view the opposite sex as human: they believe there must be one out there who will be exactly as attractive, charming, ambitious, wealthy, stylish, informed, intelligent, knowledgeable, etc. etc. etc. as they envisioned. They don't understand that there are some things you have to compromise on if you want a happy and successful long term relationship. They want it all and they end up with nothing.

[nolongerIFBx]

I've been wondering - do fundies consider lace/sheer materials immodest? I've wondered if lace boleros and lace sleeves are considered okay, have kind of assumed no because otherwise wouldn't we be seeing lots of them from fundie brides? Looking through the link of pre-specials photo album posted in "Too Many Seasons and Counting" (http://bookreviewprince.webs.com/apps/photos/) I see that in the early days Michelle wore a top with a sheer-type collar (see the image of her with just baby Josh) and her wedding dress had lace sleeves. I guess she's called her first wedding dress immodest, is that because of the lace?

Another thing I've wondered about with modesty and fundies - do they wear pajamas? Do they wear pants at home? Do they worry about being immodest and defrauding their own male relatives? If so, that's fucked up.

I don't know if anyone answered this. I think it will depend on what branch of fundie you are. I have been in IFB churches where even a keyhole closure on your to the neck top was considered immodest. Lace still shows the skin, so it would need to be lined. I think my SIL's early nineties (think Meredith style) gown had to have lining sewn in. Other churches have been fine with the lace shrug or the wide straps added to a strapless gown.

Ah, sleep wear. Rumor had it that there was actually a church polling their missionaries to make sure that wives wore gowns not pajama pants to bed. The church I was in at the time was making fun of them, so obviously didn't care.

Pants at home. Yes, some do. It certainly is not espoused by the church leadership-- God sees you all the time and who knows when someone may drop by!-- but it is done. Not by the true and faithful though. Then there's the branch of fundies that believe in appropriateness. Pants at home, fine, but not appropriate for church functions.

Absolutely worry about being modest in front of family. I remember my grandmother exploding because my young brother refused to take his shirt off for her to check for ticks. (Granted, we only saw my granparents a few times a year so we weren't super close.) Mixed bathing with siblings is usually okay as long as both are fully dressed. It's more about seeing something you shouldn't (boobs!) that would make you think about a non-relative with those same attributes than about anyone fearing that you would actually lust after a family member, though to be sure, molestation does occur.

[HOTW]

As of when I was at PCC (08-09), girls were allowed to wear pajama pants, but only inside our rooms. We were not even allowed to wear pj pants down the hall to prayer group, that had to be a skirt or culottes. And the having to put on a skirt before going outside during a fire drill is 100% true. They even have it on a notice posted on the back of all the doors in the women's dorms. I have no idea if anyone ever tried to go out without a skirt during a drill, so I have no idea if they would have been punished or not.

Maybe this explains why the Duggars are always sleeping in their clothes!

[nokidsmom]

[ I have a friend who is 42 years old and has never been on a second date. She has had plenty of very good first dates, but she turns down a second every time because she is expecting some huge romantic moment on a first date to prove that he is "the one".

No wonder she doesn't get to the second date. How many of us actually met husbands / SOs and didn't have that huge romantic moment on the first date? But you like that person enought to go on the second one, then the third, etc. I didn't have that with Mr. No (date was fine but not hugely romantic, just getting to know each other, very laid back actually.) If I looked from some "sign" that he (or anybody) was the one then I would still be single today and Mr. No would be Mr. Somebody-Who-Is-More-Realistic.

[louisa05]

No wonder she doesn't get to the second date. How many of us actually met husbands / SOs and didn't have that huge romantic moment on the first date? But you like that person enought to go on the second one, then the third, etc. I didn't have that with Mr. No (date was fine but not hugely romantic, just getting to know each other, very laid back actually.) If I looked from some "sign" that he (or anybody) was the one then I would still be single today and Mr. No would be Mr. Somebody-Who-Is-More-Realistic.

She almost got personally offended when I told her that my first date with Mr. 05 was not hugely romantic or even romantic at all. I think she now questions the validity of our marriage because I told her it was a very comfortable, easy first date and the romance came later. That doesn't fit her view of how things should be. It reminds me of Anne Shirley wanting "starbursts and marble halls" and nearly missing out on real love while she looked for it.

[TeaELSee]

sunshine wrote:

(This is not an attack.)

This common in the girls world. We get a person who has all the qualities but in the back of our mind, we think there is someone who is better than this. This is the flaw with modern dating. The one we are with is not good enough, so chase the 20% thinking that someone out there is better. Hopefully, Jessa is conscious of this flaw that is in every woman. There are no perfect men, but we find a person who is right for us and we can deal with whatever flaw that possess and still love them unconditionally.

I don't think people (men & women) think of people they are dating as "flawed". Sometimes a person who looks good on paper is just not a good fit for one or both parties. It boils down to: He/she is just not that into you. No explanations are required and nothing is wrong with anyone.

[formergothardite]

(This is not an attack.)

This common in the girls world. We get a person who has all the qualities but in the back of our mind, we think there is someone who is better than this. This is the flaw with modern dating. The one we are with is not good enough, so chase the 20% thinking that someone out there is better. Hopefully, Jessa is conscious of this flaw that is in every woman. There are no perfect men, but we find a person who is right for us and we can deal with whatever flaw that possess and still love them unconditionally.

What the every loving fuck are you going on about. Common in the "girl's world"? :angry-banghead: "Conscious of this flaw that is in every woman" :angry-banghead: "Flaw in modern dating" :cray-cray:

The first guy I dated seemed like the ideal person but after time I realize that all the things I thought I really wanted in a guy wasn't really what I wanted. It isn't a flaw to break up with a person you thought would be a good fit after realizing that you really want something different. The flaw is thinking that you HAVE to marry this and all their flaws even though you don't really want to.

[twinmama]

This common in the girls world. We get a person who has all the qualities but in the back of our mind, we think there is someone who is better than this. This is the flaw with modern dating. The one we are with is not good enough, so chase the 20% thinking that someone out there is better. Hopefully, Jessa is conscious of this flaw that is in every woman. There are no perfect men, but we find a person who is right for us and we can deal with whatever flaw that possess and still love them unconditionally.

I actually consider this to be a positive about dating. There is less pressure to get married (in the real world, not necessarily the fundie world), so there is less need to marry someone who isn't 100% what you want. And other than an X chromosome, there is nothing at all that is "in every woman." And even that X chromosome is up for debate.

[TeaELSee]

What exactly is "Modern dating"? My parents met in 1954 at college, (not a christian one). My grandparents met at a dance and dated... Even Laura Ingalls Wilder went out with Almanzo unescorted. How far are we going back?

[Mela99]

What exactly is "Modern dating"? My parents met in 1954 at college, (not a christian one). My grandparents met at a dance and dated... Even Laura Ingalls Wilder went out with Almanzo unescorted. How far are we going back?

That always makes me wonder. They're supposed to be huge fans of the LHOTP books.

[BravaAmica]

I think this is most likely to be women who have absorbed the "prince charming" Disneyfied culture. I have a friend who is 42 years old and has never been on a second date. She has had plenty of very good first dates, but she turns down a second every time because she is expecting some huge romantic moment on a first date to prove that he is "the one". She also has one of those lists that young evangelical women are told to make of all the traits of her perfect spouse. So she is looking for a man who will sing to her and wears the right socks and a whole bunch of other stupid and rather shallow crap that no person will ever live up to. I thought maybe, by now, she would see how ridiculous this all is. But she told me last spring that "he is out there" and "God will bring him".

I wonder if people like your friend actually want a long term partner? Like they've made the standard so high no one will ever meet it. So then they can say, "I'm looking for someone. It's not my fault no one has the qualities I'm looking for."

[singsingsing]

They want a fairy tale, someone who will magically meet all of their needs, make them perfectly happy, and never cause them any grief or annoyance.