Poster- Christianity inherently abusive

[formergothardite]

Sorry, formergothardite. The last paragraph was for AVENues, not yourself. My apologies for not making that clear.

I am not going to argue the Bible with you, FG, just because I am pretty sure you know it far better than I do. I didn't become a Christian until I was an adult. Like I said, my faith is very personal, mostly because I became a Christian after a very severe bout of depression. I guess you could say my faith gives me something to live for. When I speak of salvation and grace, it is because I do feel like God saved me from myself (in the most literal sense) and gave me a hope and something to live for. When I imagine a life without God I remember what it was like before I became a Christian - which is why I believe hell (aka, an existence without God) would be horrible. Obviously, of course, it is all very personal - and I realize that others with a different experience would not view an eternity without God as anything bad. I realize this isn't a universal statement, or anything terribly profound - but hopefully it kind of answers your question?

I wasn't actually trying to argue the Bible with you. I really didn't understand your definition of salvation and grace. The way I have heard these terms used is that everyone needs salvation because hell is bad and God showed grace to people by not deciding to torture everyone, just the ones who don't "get saved". And it didn't seem like you were using the terms in that way. But now I see that for you not everyone needs God or salvation, but for those who do, God will give it to them. What you wrote now makes sense to me.

[France Nolan]

I don't proselytize people or even share my faith with other people because I don't think it's appropriate. I don't believe that all the non-Christians need to be "saved" and that by bombarding them with pamphlets and knocking on their doors I'll accomplish that. No soul winning here, sadly. I also don't think I"d be giving people any "new" information, especially in the U.S. where Christianity is so prevalent. If people are Jewish, atheist, Muslim, whatever... that's fine. It's very much not my business.

Now, if someone asks me to explain my faith to them or have a conversation about my beliefs that's a different story. I'm happy to share what I believe but it stops at sharing what I believe. I'm not out to force anyone to believe and practice the way I do.

[Ruby Slippers]

Mine neither, as long as their ideology isn't shoved down the throats of the innocent, forcefully, since they have no choice. And they keep it to their fucking selves, behind doors. You don't whip out your privates in public and try to shove it down people's throats. I don't know why dangerous ideologies are allowed to be spread.

As long as they keep it the fuck to themselves, don't harm other people directly or indirectly and they don't force their children to accept it. From that on, I won't have a say to what fucking mambo jambo book they consider as holy, what freaking imaginary creature they worship or what color is the ceiling they freaking talk to.

Just to be clear, are you comparing religion to genitals, and proselytizing to sexual assault?

[AVENues]

Just to be clear, are you comparing religion to genitals, and proselytizing to sexual assault?

Like shoving down a penis on someone's throat is a SEXUAL ASSAULT, shoving down dogmas forcefully on people's throats, especially if they cannot or are not allowed to protect themselves from it, is a MENTAL ASSAULT. Seeeeeeeeee? :doh: Stupid. You came here and you're going to show them free thinkers who's boss around here? Next time try to seem like someone smart enough to tell the difference between physical and non-phisical actions, even though, luckily for tools like you, mental assaults, spiritual, mental and emotional abuse that your religion is built on hasn't been made punishable by law, but I'm going to live to see that, I promise. :twisted:

[Ruby Slippers]

I am dying-- dying-- at the crazy you just unleashed here. Can you show me one post where I stated I am a Christian? Can you please show me one post where I stated that I have any religion at all? Go on now. Search through my posts on this board: all 30 of them. When you're done looking through them and realize that you just made a faulty inference, you can come on back and apologize for your crazy.

I didn't call your ass out because I am a defensive Christian (because I'm not). I called you out for the logical fallacy of false analogy, which in this case is reasonably offensive to anyone who cares about sexual assault, and because you are making atheists look stupid with that shit. Atheists face enough prejudice in this world. They don't need your tomfuckery to make it harder to be legitimized.

Go on now and search my posts for a shred of evidence that I am a religious tool endorsing abuses of religion. When you're done, up your meds.

[Arete]

I don't proselytize people or even share my faith with other people because I don't think it's appropriate. I don't believe that all the non-Christians need to be "saved" and that by bombarding them with pamphlets and knocking on their doors I'll accomplish that. No soul winning here, sadly. I also don't think I"d be giving people any "new" information, especially in the U.S. where Christianity is so prevalent. If people are Jewish, atheist, Muslim, whatever... that's fine. It's very much not my business.

Now, if someone asks me to explain my faith to them or have a conversation about my beliefs that's a different story. I'm happy to share what I believe but it stops at sharing what I believe. I'm not out to force anyone to believe and practice the way I do.

[zcccrv]

I don't proselytize people or even share my faith with other people because I don't think it's appropriate. I don't believe that all the non-Christians need to be "saved" and that by bombarding them with pamphlets and knocking on their doors I'll accomplish that. No soul winning here, sadly. I also don't think I"d be giving people any "new" information, especially in the U.S. where Christianity is so prevalent. If people are Jewish, atheist, Muslim, whatever... that's fine. It's very much not my business.

Now, if someone asks me to explain my faith to them or have a conversation about my beliefs that's a different story. I'm happy to share what I believe but it stops at sharing what I believe. I'm not out to force anyone to believe and practice the way I do.

I also don't go around telling everyone who has two ears about what I (don't) believe. It's not a topic I usually start with acquaintances. The internet however is a different place. I also think there is a such a thing as being too reserved about these issues in real life. If everyone is extremely polite than some things don't get aired out and the differences build up through non communication. Yes, it's very important to try and be respectful but I find it is just a smidgen more important to keep the conversation alive.

[treehugger]

I wasn't actually trying to argue the Bible with you. I really didn't understand your definition of salvation and grace. The way I have heard these terms used is that everyone needs salvation because hell is bad and God showed grace to people by not deciding to torture everyone, just the ones who don't "get saved". And it didn't seem like you were using the terms in that way. But now I see that for you not everyone needs God or salvation, but for those who do, God will give it to them. What you wrote now makes sense to me.

Oh good - I was starting to be afraid that I had lost the ability to write a coherent paragraph :lol: . I am actually glad you made me write it out and explain it. I haven't ever had to explain what I believe before - and to be honest, it was more of a challenge than I thought. But I am glad it finally makes a wee bit of sense.

FWIW, I have always been in awe of your ability to debate the Bible - and I love reading your posts.

[OkToBeTakei]

I also don't go around telling everyone who has two ears about what I (don't) believe. It's not a topic I usually start with acquaintances. The internet however is a different place. I also think there is a such a thing as being too reserved about these issues in real life. If everyone is extremely polite than some things don't get aired out and the differences build up through non communication. Yes, it's very important to try and be respectful but I find it is just a smidgen more important to keep the conversation alive.

That's a really good point. I can safely say I have never been evangelised in real life and wonder if this is cultural? If you recall the Scottish guy in Duggars ignorantly do Europe he answered politely, but with a kind of WTF expression on his face. I would find it a total invasion in the same way I find tele-sales or political pamphlets through my door. It's just...you know..rude :lol:

The only type of evangelising I would be familiar with would be door to door Mormons or JW's. But as I am always politely 'I am not interested, Thank you.' I have never felt pressured or religiously invaded (if that's a term.) Strangely they all seem to be from the US.

As for the ones who stand in the street 'Preaching' there is probably a universal thought that they are just nuts and people politely feel sorry for them, the more unkind laugh.

But it's true the conversation needs to be alive. Conversation and debate are good. People feeling they are right and everybody else is wrong are just sadly deluded and require a total body swerve :lol:

[zcccrv]

@Oktobetakei

Yeah, I don't think it's quite enough to share what I believe (or don't) if asked about it and leave it at that. I think it is very important to try and explain the almighty "why". Which can lead to some heated situations but the alternative, to avoid them completely, could produce a contrary effect to the desired one.

Do you engage in the "whys" with your friends and family? Especially people who hold the opposite view?

[France Nolan]

I also don't go around telling everyone who has two ears about what I (don't) believe. It's not a topic I usually start with acquaintances. The internet however is a different place. I also think there is a such a thing as being too reserved about these issues in real life. If everyone is extremely polite than some things don't get aired out and the differences build up through non communication. Yes, it's very important to try and be respectful but I find it is just a smidgen more important to keep the conversation alive.

I agree, but I also think there's a time and a place. As I said, if people want to talk about religion with me I'm more than happy to have the conversation. If someone asks to attend church with me so they can see what our services are like, they are more than welcome to. We'll even serve them lox and cream cheese afterwards.

In my community interfaith dialogue events are pretty common. Pastors, priests, rabbis, imams, and adherents to so many different religions come together to discuss issues. It's absolutely fascinating. The Catholic college I attended even has an institute dedicated solely to interfaith dialogue. The panels there would not only include religious leaders but scientists, most of whom identified as atheist or agnostic. And that was okay by everyone in attendance. It was never about converting each other or convincing each other of the rightness of our religions, it was about having a conversation.

On Long Island we also have a wonderful organization called the Interfaith Nutrition Network or the INN that provides help to the hungry and homeless. They help all people, and their donations come from different communities and faiths. Their annual Kosher BBQ is being held soon. There's a lot of interfaith cooperation that goes on but that doesn't make for good headlines I guess.

This is probably one of the big differences between fundies and liberal/mainstream Christians like those of us on FJ. We're willing to have a conversation where all parties can participate. Fundies solely want to proselytize and subjugate. They are right, everyone else is wrong, and they will shout at everyone until they submit.

I guarantee that by fundie standards I'm not a Christian. I've been told by fundies that I haven't been saved and that I need to repent and blah blah blah. Frankly it's annoying and insulting to my intelligence. I wouldn't want to subject anyone else to that bullshit.

[zcccrv]

@France Nolan

That seems like a pretty great community you have there. That's awesome.

I've been told by fundies that I haven't been saved and that I need to repent and blah blah blah. Frankly it's annoying and insulting to my intelligence. I wouldn't want to subject anyone else to that bullshit.

I don't know if this is true but I have a hunch that an atheist would find it easier to be subjected to the stuff because, well, we don't believe in a God so a big weapon in their arsenal kind of falls on deaf ears. I think many of them find the situation very irritating. Which is actually not very productive to communication so there's that. My advantage squashed. It's now up to you to talk some sense into them ( :mrgreen: ).

[zcccrv]

Just to add a small thing. I think that, when it comes to these sensitive topics, all conversation is good (more or less) but one on one, face to face conversation with a person of the opposite view is in a league of it's own. Nothing makes you grow like having to explain something to a person that can hardly grasp what you're all about. And then try to understand what he/she is saying in response. It stretches the mind in a very useful way IMO.

[Arete]

Just to add a small thing. I think that, when it comes to these sensitive topics, all conversation is good (more or less) but one on one, face to face conversation with a person of the opposite view is in a league of it's own. Nothing makes you grow like having to explain something to a person that can hardly grasp what you're all about. And then try to understand what he/she is saying in response. It stretches the mind in a very useful way IMO.

It certainly does. When both parties enter a dialogue voluntarily, both can come out enriched, without either having been "converted" to the other's view. I'm not opposed to discussing my faith positions. If someone asks out of curiosity or to further and dialog or understanding, I will almost always engage.

I will be honest and say that I avoid engaging "soul winners", people who think they have a "ministry" and other various forms of coersive communication by fundementalists Christians. It makes me feel violated. They don't want to dialog, there is no give and take in these conversations. Their agenda is to either scare you or guilt you into a "personal relationship with Jesus". If I as a Christian can feel violated, how much more so a person of another faith or no faith?

Like France Nolan, they most certainly would not consider me a Christian. To them, I am a straight up idolator with no concept of needing to be saved from hell. I'm a slut who has not kept her purity for a husband. These two things alone would make anything coming out of my mouth invalid to their ears. If that isn't enough, they claim to represent "true Christianity", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, and have made signifigant headway in the US in having their beliefs associated with defining Christianity to non Christians in this country. So to almost all fundementalists, I am not really a Christian. Thanks to their aggressive proselytizing and political influence, a lot of non Christians in the US have come to associate all Christians with people who think the Earth is 6,000 years old, care more about controlling a woman's uterus than making sure every child has a good education and food on the table, and would just as soon stone a gay person as look at one. God I try not to, but I really hate them sometimes.

[zcccrv]

It certainly does. When both parties enter a dialogue voluntarily, both can come out enriched, without either having been "converted" to the other's view. I'm not opposed to discussing my faith positions. If someone asks out of curiosity or to further and dialog or understanding, I will almost always engage.

I will be honest and say that I avoid engaging "soul winners", people who think they have a "ministry" and other various forms of coersive communication by fundementalists Christians. It makes me feel violated. They don't want to dialog, there is no give and take in these conversations. Their agenda is to either scare you or guilt you into a "personal relationship with Jesus". If I as a Christian can feel violated, how much more so a person of another faith or no faith?

Like France Nolan, they most certainly would not consider me a Christian. To them, I am a straight up idolator with no concept of needing to be saved from hell. I'm a slut who has not kept her purity for a husband. These two things alone would make anything coming out of my mouth invalid to their ears. If that isn't enough, they claim to represent "true Christianity", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, and have made signifigant headway in the US in having their beliefs associated with defining Christianity to non Christians in this country. So to almost all fundementalists, I am not really a Christian. Thanks to their aggressive proselytizing and political influence, a lot of non Christians in the US have come to associate all Christians with people who think the Earth is 6,000 years old, care more about controlling a woman's uterus than making sure every child has a good education and food on the table, and would just as soon stone a gay person as look at one. God I try not to, but I really hate them sometimes.

I can understand that it can be extremely irritating. But I don't think the best response to extremists is to simply avoid them (even though I certainly occasionally do) because that widens the imaginary world they inhabit. Bitter conflict is probably even worse because I think it reenforces their zeal for righteousness.

My (non-believing, be warned) view goes something like this: there are aspects of traditional religion of almost any kind that establish God as the moral compass. He knows what's right better than we do. It is quite easy to interpret that as meaning that human ethic is somehow lacking. I am aware that there are many believers who don't agree but there are also many who do, not all extreme in their social actions. Then there is another important distinction: does God influence our physical world, interfere, makes stuff happen... or is he not really detectible and influences us only after we die (the free will debate) or in such subtle ways that are deemed "mysterious" (which is the middle ground approach). I would again think that many, if not most, believers believe in an interventionist God. Those two beliefs combined, God who knows better than we do and who actually does stuff in our lives, can produce a passive existence for the human. Fundies have embraced this position in a big way, given up on some basic human freedoms willingly and by the token of punishing themselves feel the "justice" in punishing others as well by ignoring their freedoms. Which the rest of us haven't given up, thankyouverymuch. I'd say that fundies are probably very scared individuals who resort to such measures because they can't even the playing field in any more sensible way.

[OkToBeTakei]

@Oktobetakei

Yeah, I don't think it's quite enough to share what I believe (or don't) if asked about it and leave it at that. I think it is very important to try and explain the almighty "why". Which can lead to some heated situations but the alternative, to avoid them completely, could produce a contrary effect to the desired one.

Do you engage in the "whys" with your friends and family? Especially people who hold the opposite view?

I would echo what AereteJo said to be honest.

My demographic involves many different religions and whilst yes as a student many years ago I engaged in the deep and meaningful as I got older and life happens it becomes more of a live and let live and not so much trying to find all the answers but find a way, a common ground in which to co-exist without religion being a defining maxim in which to define how we live. If that makes sense.

Extremes of opinion always worry me. This is not to say I am wishy washy, more that I find trying to understand why a person may feel that way, more important than their trying to change mine. I tend to find people like this one dimensional and unintelligent. Here's the funny thing. I actually respect people who are different to me, have different opinions say about politics, religion, child rearing etc. Where I utterly hate them is when they try to influence me because you know...they are right. Fuck right off :lol:

I do with family and close friends discuss the more delicate areas of life that would not be appropriate at say a dinner party. Let's face it. If some random person asks me my religion at a business dinner I am attending with my partner, you just know they are an arsehole. (For the record I generally say Gin is my chosen path.)

But no. In general it is akin to asking or discussing how much money you earn. Therefore to me somebody evangelising is just plain ignorant and rude with no respect.

[zcccrv]

I would echo what AereteJo said to be honest.

My demographic involves many different religions and whilst yes as a student many years ago I engaged in the deep and meaningful as I got older and life happens it becomes more of a live and let live and not so much trying to find all the answers but find a way, a common ground in which to co-exist without religion being a defining maxim in which to define how we live. If that makes sense.

Extremes of opinion always worry me. This is not to say I am wishy washy, more that I find trying to understand why a person may feel that way, more important than their trying to change mine. I tend to find people like this one dimensional and unintelligent. Here's the funny thing. I actually respect people who are different to me, have different opinions say about politics, religion, child rearing etc. Where I utterly hate them is when they try to influence me because you know...they are right. Fuck right off :lol:

I do with family and close friends discuss the more delicate areas of life that would not be appropriate at say a dinner party. Let's face it. If some random person asks me my religion at a business dinner I am attending with my partner, you just know they are an arsehole. (For the record I generally say Gin is my chosen path.)

But no. In general it is akin to asking or discussing how much money you earn. Therefore to me somebody evangelising is just plain ignorant and rude with no respect.

Sure, it makes sense. My partner is someone I would tentatively describe as similar. He doesn't have a lot of interest in discussing religion and also thinks extremists are unintelligent. We argue around this point because I disagree and think it's quite an offensive thing to say. I guess I see the potential in religion to turn people into fundies more than he does. People like you and him probably have more of a "people ultimately choose that what suits them" approach while I tend to lean toward "people choose that what makes them think good about themselves" view.

[OkToBeTakei]

Sure, it makes sense. My partner is someone I would tentatively describe as similar. He doesn't have a lot of interest in discussing religion and also thinks extremists are unintelligent. We argue around this point because I disagree and think it's quite an offensive thing to say. I guess I see the potential in religion to turn people into fundies more than he does. People like you and him probably have more of a "people ultimately choose that what suits them" approach while I tend to lean toward "people choose that what makes them think good about themselves" view.

:lol:

I think you are right.

I agree with you to some extent about people making what I would consider the wrong choice because they have some 'need.' I just don't see though how I can change them. If they feel some need or lacking and religion fills it, well it is better than say many other life coping mechanisms if you are damaged. Just as long as they keep it to themselves. Not like you hear many evangelising for heroin.

Sadly religion is used as an excuse for all sorts of extremes. But this is where it is important for me to separate individuals from mass generalisation or hysteria.

[Anxious Girl]

Well, I'm so sorry if I don't care for Christians' feelings. The harm that they have done has far outweighed the good, imo. Fundie Christians don't identify people who are Christians who are pro-choicers and feminists as true Christians, yet these Christians who're feminists and who're pro-choice don't acknowledge fundie Christians as Christians. If fundie Christians are the 1s who're being heard the loudest, then why aren't there any changes being made? Who should I believe? This is why I don't care for Christian feelings.

[France Nolan]

I've always found Fowler's Stages of Faith to be fascinating:

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/fowler.htm

Yet another way to psychoanalyze fundies.

[OkToBeTakei]

Well, I'm so sorry if I don't care for Christians' feelings. The harm that they have done has far outweighed the good, imo. Fundie Christians don't identify people who are Christians who are pro-choicers and feminists as true Christians, yet these Christians who're feminists and who're pro-choice don't acknowledge fundie Christians as Christians. If fundie Christians are the 1s who're being heard the loudest, then why aren't there any changes being made? Who should I believe? This is why I don't care for Christian feelings.

The harm they have done has far outweighed the good? Really?

Those who are heard loudest make the majority? Really?

You don't care for christian's feelings? You sound like a toddler having a strop. Your view is almost as naive as a toddlers. I would imagine most christians, muslims, jews and every other religion is too busy getting on to care what you think. But I would imagine most are hoping you are not judging them by a few idiots who happen to be the loudest extremes of their respective religion.

OH wait. You just did. What is the bigger problem. The fundamental implacable religious nuts? Or those like you who cannot differentiate :think:

Judgemental is judgemental. It's never good.

[Anxious Girl]

How come it's ok for Christians to judge without being reprimanded by fellow Christians? How come it's not ok for non-Christians to judge Christians, but for Christians to judge Christians? How am I being childish if Christians elect politicians that are anti-LGBT and anti-choice? I'm more childish than them? Really?

[Sobeknofret]

Well, I'm so sorry if I don't care for Christians' feelings. The harm that they have done has far outweighed the good, imo. Fundie Christians don't identify people who are Christians who are pro-choicers and feminists as true Christians, yet these Christians who're feminists and who're pro-choice don't acknowledge fundie Christians as Christians. If fundie Christians are the 1s who're being heard the loudest, then why aren't there any changes being made? Who should I believe? This is why I don't care for Christian feelings.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. I don't even understand what you're trying to say. This has so far been an interesting and thought provoking conversation, and I've been enjoying it thoroughly. Sweeping generalizations and interjecting bizarre assertions into the convo contributes nothing.

[Anxious Girl]

This makes absolutely no sense at all. I don't even understand what you're trying to say. This has so far been an interesting and thought provoking conversation, and I've been enjoying it thoroughly. Sweeping generalizations and interjecting bizarre assertions into the convo contributes nothing.

So it's ok for Christians to do it, but if non-Christians generalize Christians, then it's a no-no?

[Sobeknofret]

How come it's ok for Christians to judge without being reprimanded by fellow Christians? How come it's not ok for non-Christians to judge Christians, but for Christians to judge Christians? How am I being childish if Christians elect politicians that are anti-LGBT and anti-choice? I'm more childish than them? Really?

Yes. Your debating technique and assertions are deeply flawed. If you can't make the logical leap that not all Christians believe nor support the same things, then yeah you are being childish in your thinking.