Poster- Christianity inherently abusive

[2xx1xy1JD]

It is quite sad if you think that something like this is possible in the modern world today.

:shock: 1945 was not ancient history.

My Russian SIL dealt with a government that identified Jews in their passports. 1991 was not ancient history.

Bosnian Muslims were facing genocide in the mid-1990s. Not ancient history.

My FIL was stopped for 2 hours at the US border a few years ago because, even though he has a Canadian passport, it says that he was born in Iraq. Not ancient history.

The former premier of Quebec made a point of blaming the loss of his referendum on separation on "money and the ethnic vote" and then clarified that yes, he was in fact blaming the Jews. In 1995. Not ancient history.

Now, I'm not an anti-government paranoid freak. I like to be optimistic - but I'm not naive either. I have enough faith in my government and neighborhood that I'm not in deep hiding as a Jew. I have a mezuzah on the door, and walk to synagogue, and shop at a kosher supermarket and send my kids to a Jewish school. At the same time - after Mumbai, there is an armed police officer at the synagogue. The doors of the school are locked and you need to be buzzed in. We are aware of security issues, and I am acutely aware that schools and community centers and synagogues HAVE been attacked in recent years. I'm proud that my husband wears a kippah (Jewish head covering), but know about the patient who refused to be seen by his colleague (with the clearly Jewish name) and who suddenly bolted out of the office when my husband turned his back so that the kippah was visible. A few years ago, I had an online friend who was a former neo-Nazi, and she'd send me emails saying things like "an event in planned about 50 km from you this weekend. Please stay safe."

Tell me, in what parallel universe has all religious discrimination been eliminated from the world?

[France Nolan]

Religious prejudice, persecution, and genocide are still very much a reality in 2013. I don't know if you live under a rock or are just willfully ignorant. Either way, I think it's quite sad that you're so ignorant and arrogant as to think religious persecution is a thing of the past.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/37281

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/ ... 4B20130611

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22708715

The Muslim minority in Myanmar (Burma) are being terrorized as we speak. People are afraid to leave their homes. People have been killed. The government is also poised to adopt a "2 child" policy for the Rohingya (Muslim minority). This policy will not be extended to the general population. They are being specifically targeted because of their religious and ethnic identities.

Iran continues to persecute and harass members of the Bahai faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... %27%C3%ADs

Islamophobia is alive and well in the U.S. and Europe. So no, it's not a cultural thing. Europeans are quite capable of bigotry. Americans don't have a monopoly on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophob ... of_America

[Mama Mia]

Actually, yes. I've seen hundreds of episodes of a show called The Atheist Experience where people (believers and non-believers) call in to talk to atheists. By what I heard, directly from the mouths of the de-converted, a huge number of them stated that leaving religion was traumatizing, personally and/or socially. On a personal level, the fear of hell built in from the childhood is often talked about. Adjusting to the concept of exclusive personal responsibility takes some time. On a social level, loosing your community. I even provided a link to The Clergy Project here.

That example makes absolutely no sense. That is a self selected group who are calling specifically to talk to athiests. OBVIOUSLY this is going to be a group of people who are more likely to feel strongly about their beliefs and their experiences and more likely to be traumatized by religion or leaving religion. You could just as easily watch any number of born-again programs and hear about how horrible peoples lives were until the found Jesus. They would talk about how they lost all their friends and family by becoming religious and how their lives before were filled with crime and drugs and adultery. Does that make it a representative cross section of people who were athiest and then became religious and the impact on their life ? NO, of course not.

[SpeakNow]

It is quite sad if you think that something like this is possible in the modern world today.

IMO this is precisely why religion is so divisive. Everybody wants their own terms. But when terms inhibit communication, differences multiply.

I think you're misunderstanding me. Where I live (in the Bible Belt...TN to be exact) people will evangelize anywhere from the supermarket to the gas station to your front door. If these fundies knew where the non-Christians lived, all the non-Christians would get constantly evangelized. I have no problem discussing religion, but I don't want to have to talk about it all the time because fundies can't mind their own damn business. If I don't want to discuss religion at any particular moment, I shouldn't have to. That's what I mean by discussing religion on my own terms. I'm not sure where you live, but it's clear our experiences in this regard are quite different.

[zcccrv]

1. Obviously I was not talking about Burma, Iran... I was taking about the US, Canada, Australia, Europe. I meant that when I said "modern world" (wrong expression I guess)

2. Please don't speak about Bosnia, I do live in Croatia and am aware of what went on in the 1990ies. People here have never hidden their religious identity but not hiding it was not the reason for war (these are very small countries, everyone knows what you are even if you never disclose). Religious differences do flourish in extreme circumstances but the culprit is almost always political or economical. In todays money hungry world it would be so even more.

3. There are organizations such as the UN that would not permit people being marked with a Judo star as was the example I commented on. Yes, many have prejudice but how is silence going to change them?

@SpeakNow

Do you feel harassed by the people that evangelize so extensively? Do you feel like they should not be able to come to your door? What happens if you just politely say "thanks, but I'm Jewish and too busy to discuss it"?

Edited for finding more accurate words.

[zcccrv]

Tell me, in what parallel universe has all religious discrimination been eliminated from the world?

Because it's so convenient to claim that is what I said. Please provide a quote.

I have only repeatedly asked how is staying silent going to help matters change and tried to provide arguments as to why I think NOT staying silent might.

Edited to add:

Based on what was described in this thread the worst thing that can realistically happen to a US citizen living in the US on grounds of religious discrimination is screening and being evangelized to. While unpleasant how in the world does it connect to "but Nazis!!!"?

[OkToBeTakei]

1. Several posters gave examples of European issues.

2. It was you who said you would find it hard to believe that atrocities such as the holocaust or the forced declaration of your religion could happen in the modern age. Yet what you are asking is that people forcibly declare their religion, maybe not by wearing a badge but by having to declare it. I think you have to agree this has never really worked out well in times of war. As you correctly said the causes of war may initially be economic, or territorial as in the Bosnian war. But nevertheless as time immemorial teaches the vehicle of war will be used to perpetuate the worst in humanity. Rape. Ethnic cleansing. Society falls apart.

How convenient say for those who have an evil prejudice to be able to access Census information which quite conveniently tells them where they need to go and who they need to go to. Surely you must see that?

Does everybody in Croatia wear a religious badge? Because seriously I have visited your beautiful country and would be hard pressed to identify religions by walking down a street. There are though apparently 303 Jedi in Croatia as per the 2012 census. Feel the Force.

3. It is a nice dream. One word. Syria. The UN is a marvellous ideal. Unfortunately in practice it is not infallible. To put such faith in this is naive. But of course you do not believe in the concept of faith.

Again because maybe you are confusing YOUR thoughts and beliefs of ending prejudice, bigotry, racism by transparency, dialogue, education, mutual respect and understanding, which would be the ideal and wonderful and probably what the majority of humanity would also like. But all it takes is one person to use that type of information for their own agenda and POOF.

You can't judge human nature on an ideal.

[zcccrv]

2. It was you who said you would find it hard to believe that atrocities such as the holocaust or the forced declaration of your religion could happen in the modern age. Yet what you are asking is that people forcibly declare their religion, maybe not by wearing a badge but by having to declare it. I think you have to agree this has never really worked out well in times of war. As you correctly said the causes of war may initially be economic, or territorial as in the Bosnian war. But nevertheless as time immemorial teaches the vehicle of war will be used to perpetuate the worst in humanity. Rape. Ethnic cleansing. Society falls apart.

They could happen. So could WW3, armageddon or alien invasion. Not a reason to live like it is around the corner. I completely agree with you on the subject of war. Which is precisely why religious discrimination in war or genocide can not be viewed as a separate phenomenon but as a part of "in what ways does the worst in humanity come out". And there are many ways.

3. It is a nice dream. One word. Syria. The UN is a marvellous ideal. Unfortunately in practice it is not infallible. To put such faith in this is naive. But of course you do not believe in the concept of faith.

Once again, I am not speaking about the Middle East. I am speaking about the US, Canada, Europe, Australia.. Very different subjects.

Again because maybe you are confusing YOUR thoughts and beliefs of ending prejudice, bigotry, racism by transparency, dialogue, education, mutual respect and understanding, which would be the ideal and wonderful and probably what the majority of humanity would also like. But all it takes is one person to use that type of information for their own agenda and POOF. You can't judge human nature on an ideal.

That's a little bit paranoid IMO when it comes to the topic of census. I don't think I am trying to idealize human nature. I am just trying to discuss a path that me as an atheist and someone as a Christian, Jew or Muslim might have in common and what it might entail. For the future. Even if we are mean and selfish today. I refuse to live in the fear of persecution, holocaust, terrorism, war, exploitative government. I will do what I can to try and find common ground with people regardless of those Big Fears.

[zcccrv]

Does everybody in Croatia wear a religious badge? Because seriously I have visited your beautiful country and would be hard pressed to identify religions by walking down a street. There are though apparently 303 Jedi in Croatia as per the 2012 census. Feel the Force.

I missed this one, sorry. Everybody in Croatia is required to state their religious identity. That's all there is to it, no street recognition required. Everybody who cares knows who is (not) going to church or (not) sending their kids to religious teaching. Small community.

[zcccrv]

That example makes absolutely no sense. That is a self selected group who are calling specifically to talk to athiests. OBVIOUSLY this is going to be a group of people who are more likely to feel strongly about their beliefs and their experiences and more likely to be traumatized by religion or leaving religion. You could just as easily watch any number of born-again programs and hear about how horrible peoples lives were until the found Jesus. They would talk about how they lost all their friends and family by becoming religious and how their lives before were filled with crime and drugs and adultery. Does that make it a representative cross section of people who were athiest and then became religious and the impact on their life ? NO, of course not.

I am aware of the bias but that's the best one can do. Listen to what people who have been through it say. Yes, on either side. The side that lands in minority after conversion is usually the one that suffers greater change.

As I stated, people call the show for very different reasons, religious and non-religious alike and some patterns do repeat themselves. It's in no way scientific information but if you are interested enough in the subject, give it a try.

[OkToBeTakei]

Because it's so convenient to claim that is what I said. Please provide a quote.

I have only repeatedly asked how is staying silent going to help matters change and tried to provide arguments as to why I think NOT staying silent might.

Edited to add:

Based on what was described in this thread the worst thing that can realistically happen to a US citizen living in the US on grounds of religious discrimination is screening and being evangelized to. While unpleasant how in the world does it connect to "but Nazis!!!"?

Not my place to answer really. There is such a cultural difference it's really quite astounding. I think if you look at the Constitution of America and how strongly they believe in it. I find that really odd. I also stupidly once said the UK did not have something similar. DOH apparently we do, but I would be hard pressed to quote it as literally as those in the US do theirs. (Apparently although there is no death penalty in the UK. Swans are the Queen's property and if I kill one she can execute me. I kid you not. )

The US is made up of so many diverse cultures, all with history. Most endured hardship to be there. Some pack a terrible history of persecution, prejudice from their countries of origin. When you think how many cultures have collided to make one country it is actually amazing it worked at all, all that with only one war (internal.) Also not to be derogatory to our friends across the Sea. It is a very, very young country. We in Europe have had centuries to fuck up, yet still we are learning.

The distrust of government. I don't honestly get that. But so many were probably out doing their own thing making a living (pioneers) that govt made no impact on their lives. I would probably be fairly annoyed if all of a sudden I was not in sole charge of my own life if it was what I was used to.

The fact there is 50 odd, basically countries all with different laws calling themselves one country? Boggles the mind.

It astounds me the amount of patriotism they have yet distrust their own government. The whole making up your own religion and fitting it to your needs is bizarre. I will never understand the fear of socialism, in particular healthcare and welfare. Their free speech laws.We are all bound by our own views, mine are here to see. It is in trying to understand it that understanding comes. Not necessarily telling people that there is a better way and you have it.

Finally and tongue in cheek. Every country has it's fair share of nutters I reckon the more people you have the more nutters.

It is quite fascinating the differences and I am absolutely sure my naive attempt at even a semblance of understanding is probably way wrong. Apologies US folks.

[OkToBeTakei]

I missed this one, sorry. Everybody in Croatia is required to state their religious identity. That's all there is to it, no street recognition required. Everybody who cares knows who is (not) going to church or (not) sending their kids to religious teaching. Small community.

So it is a law. Is their penalties for not? Where is this required? Just census? As you walk in to a shop do you say. 'Hi, atheist here, how are you today?' Seriously give a more detailed response.

You know the religious identity of your whole country because it is a small community?

[OkToBeTakei]

They could happen. So could WW3, armageddon or alien invasion. Not a reason to live like it is around the corner. I completely agree with you on the subject of war. Which is precisely why religious discrimination in war or genocide can not be viewed as a separate phenomenon but as a part of "in what ways does the worst in humanity come out". And there are many ways.

Once again, I am not speaking about the Middle East. I am speaking about the US, Canada, Europe, Australia.. Very different subjects.

That's a little bit paranoid IMO when it comes to the topic of census. I don't think I am trying to idealize human nature. I am just trying to discuss a path that me as an atheist and someone as a Christian, Jew or Muslim might have in common and what it might entail. For the future. Even if we are mean and selfish today. I refuse to live in the fear of persecution, holocaust, terrorism, war, exploitative government. I will do what I can to try and find common ground with people regardless of those Big Fears.

You just really don't get it do you. How very convenient you can dismiss Syria. The world does not operate under how you wish to discuss it, subject of your choice. You claimed the UN would prevent atrocities. I see now you obviously meant they would prevent atrocities ONLY in Europe. That's convenient.

[zcccrv]

So it is a law. Is their penalties for not? Where is this required? Just census? As you walk in to a shop do you say. 'Hi, atheist here, how are you today?' Seriously give a more detailed response.

You know the religious identity of your whole country because it is a small community?

Yep, just census. You have to say it, no way around. I don't know what happens if you decline, I honestly have never heard of such an example.

Each person knows the religious identity of most people in their vicinity (which is a much bigger percentage of all people then it would be in the US). Because Croatia is a heavily Catholic country it is very easy to know these things if you are really that interested. It is discussed publicly, measured, analyzed. Religious people are often critical of the Church and there are civil attempts to try and bring new ideas into the old, backward thinking, meddling into social/political issues kind of religion. It's a whole lot of everything but it seems like it is all much more out in the open.

You just really don't get it do you. How very convenient you can dismiss Syria. The world does not operate under how you wish to discuss it, subject of your choice. You claimed the UN would prevent atrocities. I see now you obviously meant they would prevent atrocities ONLY in Europe. That's convenient.

No, it's not convenient. It's sad. Really, really sad that the differences between some parts of the world seem to be that great. I don't feel educated enough on the subject of Syria to go into this discussion. Which is privileged and stupid of me, I am aware of this fact.

[OkToBeTakei]

So the 303 Jedi's were prosecuted?

Because you do realise that was actually a protest.

[OkToBeTakei]

No, it's not convenient. It's sad. Really, really sad that the differences between some parts of the world seem to be that great. I don't feel educated enough on the subject of Syria to go into this discussion. Which is privileged and stupid of me, I am aware of this fact.

No. It was convenient of you to use it in debate.

I was in my 20's during the Bosnian war. I was horrified 'at the differences between some parts of the world.' It was not long ago. I viewed your country as you now view Syria. I watched it on the news over many long nightshifts and thought what a very backward country, that would never happen here. I was young, idealistic and ignorant. I did not think I was privileged. I am older now but still consider myself ignorant. I think it is important, or it is to me, to never presume otherwise, because then my mind will be closed.

Syria geographically is as close to you, as Croatia is to me.

It started as many do as a political conflict.

Syria's upwardly spiraling violence has resulted in the confirmed killings of almost 93,000 people, the United Nations' human rights office said Thursday but acknowledged the real number is likely to be far higher.

Have they? Have they not?

Asked about Russia's questioning of U.S. evidence that Syria forces used chemical weapons multiple times, killing between 100 to 150 people, Rhodes said the information provided to Putin's government included samples of sarin gas and other "convincing" evidence.

There are calls now for the UN to enter Syria.

"There are also well-documented cases of individual children being tortured and executed, and entire families including babies being massacred — which, along with this devastatingly high death toll, is a terrible reminder of just how vicious this conflict has become,"

So really you feel that the UN will step in to stop countries wearing badges of religion?

I suppose I don't need to remind you that it took this before they acted in the Bosnian war.

The events in Srebrenica in 1995 included the killing of more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys, as well as the mass expulsion of another 25,000–30,000 Bosnian Muslim civilians, in and around the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina, committed by units of the Army of the Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić.[7][8]

[Arete]

zcccrv, I gave a specifically European example. I don't know what the worst is that could happen in the US if a person's religion was disclosed. I live in a liberal state, work in an extremely liberal field, and anyone who would proselytize would get laughed out of society. I am not a Muslim in the Bible Belt, I am not a Hindu in a small mid Western town, where I am you can't throw a rock without hitting an atheist. If I were a Jew in a small Southern town, I can tell you being the target of proselytizers would get very old, very fast.

When I was young, my religious community was specifically targetted for proselytizing by Jehovah's Witnesses in our area. Sure, the adults in our community told them to fuck off (sometimes nicely, sometimes not) when they came to the door. But what if they had actually had political power in our community, not just this zeal to show us the light? I'm sure we would have been FAR more careful and circumspect then.

So let's ask the question of what this "talking" between the Eastern Orthodox and the JWs got us. It got us parents who developed a lifelong revulsion to Protestants, ALL Protestants. It made those who had been born abroad hunker down and view all their non tribal members with suspiscion and distrust. It got the kids in these families the advice to stay away from Protestants in general and JWs in particular, don't be friends with them, don't bring them home. So you can see, proselytizing is NOT an activity that does not do damage just because it doesn't kill people in the States. It breeds distrust, disgust, and actually leads to more ghettoization, not less.

I also know what does work. Keeping your religious thoughts to yourself unless asked. Understanding is built one at a time, on the basis of millions of individual friendships. The people who invite you to an Easter or an Eid or a Passover dinner because they want to share food and company, not because they want to make a religious statement, are the ones who are furthering the conversation. As is the atheist who reads the Bible to his mother because she is a believer who has gone blind. The government collecting data and putting it in shiny graphs builds no bridges.

[zcccrv]

No. It was convenient of you to use it in debate.

I was in my 20's during the Bosnian war. I was horrified 'at the differences between some parts of the world.' It was not long ago. I viewed your country as you now view Syria. I watched it on the news over many long nightshifts and thought what a very backward country, that would never happen here. I was young, idealistic and ignorant. I did not think I was privileged. I am older now but still consider myself ignorant. I think it is important, or it is to me, to never presume otherwise, because then my mind will be closed.

Syria geographically is as close to you, as Croatia is to me.

It started as many do as a political conflict.

I'm not sure I understand your point entirely. As I already said I think shit can go down anywhere but some parts of the world (which Croatia is only in the process of entering) have a system for protection much, much stronger then others. I'm as ignorant now about Syria as you were about Croatia or Bosnia. We agree, no? Shit is far less likely to go down in the US or in Europe then it is in the Middle East. That's just a fact. So if you and I live in a fear of things potentially going south, what are the people of Syria supposed to say? I remember the war. You continue to live your life and hold onto the same values you had before, as much as you can.

@AreteJo

Proselytizing has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I do not think it is a constructive means for communication. It puts one person in charge, so to speak. But I'm still very interested in what people of different religious backgrounds believe and why. Better understanding equals greater tolerance equals less divisiveness. The only platforms where no one is in charge and everyone is on equal terms that I know of are: the official one (everybody is, above all, a citizen) and the free media one (internet). You really think that everyone minding their own business is a realistic scenario? There are more and more both atheists and fundamentalists. It doesn't lead me to believe that the tide is swinging towards people minding their own business but towards greater outspoken polarization. Maybe this is only my impression, it's possible. But if it is turning towards speaking out, as much different people as possible should speak out. Not just those who are seemingly in stark opposition.

[France Nolan]

Look. A few months ago I turned on the television and a report flashed that a Muslim store owner was murdered... because he was Muslim. Because Muslims are all terrorists. Because they want to take over our country and impose Sharia law and blah blah blah. It made me sick to my stomach.

And then my dad called and asked if I'd seen the report. It turns out that this was someone my family knew. Someone from our community. Someone my father respected. Now he's dead because of his religion. This was in the United States, in New York City, one of the most liberal parts of the country. If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere.

I have Muslim friends who were genuinely afraid for their lives after 9/11. People were calling their mosques and threatening them. Some mosques were vandalized. One of my friend had to stay home from school for several weeks because it just wasn't safe for her or her family to leave their home. It was bad enough for the men, but worse for the women because they wore the hijab and were easy targets for people to scream at them, threaten them, and spit on them. My Hindu and Sikh classmates endured the same because they "looked" Muslim.

Are there more protections for religious minorities in countries like the U.S. and those in western Europe? Yes. Does that mean the protections are impregnable? No. Not at all. You can certainly look at Nazi Germany as an example. Under the Weimar Republic, Jews played important roles in society and government. The Weimar Republic was relatively friendly to them. Jewish scholarship blossomed in Germany. http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/micro ... 207794.pdf

It's quite possible for a formerly friendly or tolerant government to persecute minorities, especially during times of economic and social turmoil. Let's face it, this is the case even in the U.S. and Western Europe. Look at the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. What is to keep the American government from deciding that Muslims pose the same "threat" that the Japanese did and put them internment camps? The same Constitution was in place.

If we think it can't happen in our countries, then we'll be oblivious to the discrimination and persecution as it happens. I'm so, so tired of people saying "never again" when it continues the world over.

[Anxious Girl]

zcccrv, I gave a specifically European example. I don't know what the worst is that could happen in the US if a person's religion was disclosed. I live in a liberal state, work in an extremely liberal field, and anyone who would proselytize would get laughed out of society. I am not a Muslim in the Bible Belt, I am not a Hindu in a small mid Western town, where I am you can't throw a rock without hitting an atheist. If I were a Jew in a small Southern town, I can tell you being the target of proselytizers would get very old, very fast.

When I was young, my religious community was specifically targetted for proselytizing by Jehovah's Witnesses in our area. Sure, the adults in our community told them to fuck off (sometimes nicely, sometimes not) when they came to the door. But what if they had actually had political power in our community, not just this zeal to show us the light? I'm sure we would have been FAR more careful and circumspect then.

So let's ask the question of what this "talking" between the Eastern Orthodox and the JWs got us. It got us parents who developed a lifelong revulsion to Protestants, ALL Protestants. It made those who had been born abroad hunker down and view all their non tribal members with suspiscion and distrust. It got the kids in these families the advice to stay away from Protestants in general and JWs in particular, don't be friends with them, don't bring them home. So you can see, proselytizing is NOT an activity that does not do damage just because it doesn't kill people in the States. It breeds distrust, disgust, and actually leads to more ghettoization, not less.

I also know what does work. Keeping your religious thoughts to yourself unless asked. Understanding is built one at a time, on the basis of millions of individual friendships. The people who invite you to an Easter or an Eid or a Passover dinner because they want to share food and company, not because they want to make a religious statement, are the ones who are furthering the conversation. As is the atheist who reads the Bible to his mother because she is a believer who has gone blind. The government collecting data and putting it in shiny graphs builds no bridges.

Even though we disagree and such about who we consider as trolls, I love you for this. I wish more people thought the way you did. Why isn't there a heart smiley? :(

[zcccrv]

Look. A few months ago I turned on the television and a report flashed that a Muslim store owner was murdered... because he was Muslim. Because Muslims are all terrorists. Because they want to take over our country and impose Sharia law and blah blah blah. It made me sick to my stomach.

And then my dad called and asked if I'd seen the report. It turns out that this was someone my family knew. Someone from our community. Someone my father respected. Now he's dead because of his religion. This was in the United States, in New York City, one of the most liberal parts of the country. If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere.

I have Muslim friends who were genuinely afraid for their lives after 9/11. People were calling their mosques and threatening them. Some mosques were vandalized. One of my friend had to stay home from school for several weeks because it just wasn't safe for her or her family to leave their home. It was bad enough for the men, but worse for the women because they wore the hijab and were easy targets for people to scream at them, threaten them, and spit on them. My Hindu and Sikh classmates endured the same because they "looked" Muslim.

Are there more protections for religious minorities in countries like the U.S. and those in western Europe? Yes. Does that mean the protections are impregnable? No. Not at all. You can certainly look at Nazi Germany as an example. Under the Weimar Republic, Jews played important roles in society and government. The Weimar Republic was relatively friendly to them. Jewish scholarship blossomed in Germany. http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/micro ... 207794.pdf

It's quite possible for a formerly friendly or tolerant government to persecute minorities, especially during times of economic and social turmoil. Let's face it, this is the case even in the U.S. and Western Europe. Look at the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. What is to keep the American government from deciding that Muslims pose the same "threat" that the Japanese did and put them internment camps? The same Constitution was in place.

If we think it can't happen in our countries, then we'll be oblivious to the discrimination and persecution as it happens. I'm so, so tired of people saying "never again" when it continues the world over.

I'm not saying "never again", I'm saying "hopefully getting better". Feminism made rapid changes in society. Gay rights advocates made some incredible progress over the last couple of decades. What they probably had in common was that they saw the potential for people to change for the better.

Isn't there a thread on FJ about terrorism killing less people than preschoolers? Are people in the US more afraid of preschoolers than of terrorists? I doubt it.

Shit happens everywhere. I know I have it much better then many people on this planet because the likelihood of shit happening to me is less then the average one. To live in fear of shit happening is to me just not a reasonable way to live.

[Arete]

Aw, thanks Anxious Girl. :group-hug:

[Arete]

zcccrv,

No one can ask people who have been the victims of crimes and discrimination, or who have an entire generation of their family or culture missing because of genocide, to simply trust. That is not possible. You can hope, but you cannot trust.

I don't live as a cypto-Christian and don't know anyone else who actually takes the precaution of hiding their religious identity. Still, I choose what and when to share. On a site like this, we are discussing religious fundementalism, so telling people who may think that Christianity is only the Jim Bob Duggars of the world, or that the sum total of Islam is represented in Osama Bin Laden-that there are other practices and that these practices are actually not a minority is just adding to the conversation. Someone asking a question about a specific point or practice in another religion for their information is also adding to the conversation. Forcing religious views on someone either because they are a captive audience or because you are attempting to legislate your beliefs is not adding to the conversation. Dismissing the fears of minority groups by saying "You shouldn't live that way" also does not forward the conversation.

We all want to believe we'll do better and act better than the ones who came before. That if economic pressures that give rise to the demagogues and the haters prevailed that we would rise up and silence them. But the truth is, we don't know how we will react under pressure until we get tested, so no one is in a position to give anyone else absolute assurances unless they have already been tested and met the challenge.

[Mama Mia]

There were over 1,000 hate crimes based on religion in the United States in 2011. This doesn't include all of harassment and bullying that isn't reported. As you can see, crime against someone based on their being an athiest was the least frequent.

Here is the FBI source:

fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2011/narratives/incidents-and-offenses

[SpeakNow]

1. Obviously I was not talking about Burma, Iran... I was taking about the US, Canada, Australia, Europe. I meant that when I said "modern world" (wrong expression I guess)

2. Please don't speak about Bosnia, I do live in Croatia and am aware of what went on in the 1990ies. People here have never hidden their religious identity but not hiding it was not the reason for war (these are very small countries, everyone knows what you are even if you never disclose). Religious differences do flourish in extreme circumstances but the culprit is almost always political or economical. In todays money hungry world it would be so even more.

3. There are organizations such as the UN that would not permit people being marked with a Judo star as was the example I commented on. Yes, many have prejudice but how is silence going to change them?

@SpeakNow

Do you feel harassed by the people that evangelize so extensively? Do you feel like they should not be able to come to your door? What happens if you just politely say "thanks, but I'm Jewish and too busy to discuss it"?

Edited for finding more accurate words.

Do I feel harassed? Sometimes. It depends on who is proselytizing

Should they not be able to come to my door?

That isn't what I was talking about. Sure, they can come to my door. My problem was with the census. I live in a part of town that has several Jewish families. If we had to declare our religion I could see the number of proselytizers going way up. I don't want to be bothered as such.

What happens if I say no?

It depends. Some will just let it go. Others will keep taking and talking. I've had to pry myself away from one who wouldn't shut up.