Poster- Christianity inherently abusive

[Anxious Girl]

Yes. Your debating technique and assertions are deeply flawed. If you can't make the logical leap that not all Christians believe nor support the same things, then yeah you are being childish in your thinking.

How am I childish if for years and years Christians have been so anti-everybody except for them, and now they want us to realize that they're not all like that? Tell that to Christians who don't support LGBT and po-choice. Do you see any atheists, jews or Muslims harassing patients at abortion clinics? No. But you do see religious people protesting LGBT rights.

[Sobeknofret]

So it's ok for Christians to do it, but if non-Christians generalize Christians, then it's a no-no?

Honestly, are we even reading the same thread? Two people have been guilty of making bizarre claims and acting, frankly, more than slightly unhinged, and neither have been the Christians.

[Anxious Girl]

Honestly, are we even reading the same thread? Two people have been guilty of making bizarre claims and acting, frankly, more than slightly unhinged, and neither have been the Christians.

I apologize to everyone. I am just so sick and tired of hearing politicians using Christianity as a reason why they're against something, so when the op posted this photo, I thought that people would understand and sympathize with why not some people might not trust Christians. I'm tired of people such as my dad who're Christian and using the Bible to support why they think that gay marriage shouldn't be law. I really am sorry. I was an asshole. I'm just tired of hearing politicians using Christianity as a tool to pander to their leghumpers.

It gets me so angry that I become frustrated at Christianity. I know that not all Christians are like this, but it gets me so mad when politicians use religion to get their votes. If you don't trust me because of my insane posts, I understand.

[OkToBeTakei]

How come it's ok for Christians to judge without being reprimanded by fellow Christians? How come it's not ok for non-Christians to judge Christians, but for Christians to judge Christians? How am I being childish if Christians elect politicians that are anti-LGBT and anti-choice? I'm more childish than them? Really?

Yes.

Because you are tarring millions, billions even based on your own belief or ire.

Politics and religion for example play no part in my country . So no, I find your comments pointedly naive.

Also just to say your comment is confusing. Who am I meant to be judging? Why would I want to judge them? They are just blips. IF you mean the US nutjobs well I think the US voted well last November so it does not seem a clear and present danger :lol:

We are not all Umerrican Anxious Girl.

[Anxious Girl]

Yes.

Because you are tarring millions, billions even based on your own belief or ire.

Politics and religion for example play no part in my country . So no, I find your comments pointedly naive.

Also just to say your comment is confusing. Who am I meant to be judging? Why would I want to judge them? They are just blips. IF you mean the US nutjobs well I think the US voted well last November so it does not seem a clear and present danger :lol:

We are not all Umerrican Anxious Girl.

I know. I apologize for being an ignorant American asshat. :embarrassed: It's just I don't like how politicians in my country use religion for their base. And then I think that some of these people may be interacting with some other politicians from around the world and will impact other countries' view of us.

[OkToBeTakei]

I know. I apologize for being an ignorant American asshat. :embarrassed: It's just I don't like how politicians in my country use religion for their base. And then I think that some of these people may be interacting with some other politicians from around the world and will impact other countries' view of us.

No I have faith in humanity in general. Every country has their 'issues.'

I don't judge your country on it's extremists no more than I do Iraq on theirs. Or any country really.

[France Nolan]

Anxious Girl, speaking for my pocket of the States there ARE some Jews, Muslims, and others who express anti hay and anti choice sentiments. There are also Jews, Muslims and others who express the opposite views.

Your anger and frustration are valid. I'm angry that my religion is used as a piss poor excuse for discrimination. I'm an American Christian, and I'm part of thr LGBT community. I'm tired of my faith being hijacked by lunatics.

[danvillebelle]

My spiritual father (Orthodox term for an experienced person who guides you on your spiritual path with advice and prayer, for those who aren't familiar with the term) posted this tonight on fb. It elaborates a bit on the position AreteJo and I were trying to explain earlier.

"You cannot be too gentle, too kind. Shun even to appear harsh in your treatment of each other. Joy, radiant joy, streams from the face of him who gives and kindles joy in the heart of him who receives. All condemnation is from the devil. Never condemn each other. We condemn others only because we shun knowing ourselves. When we gaze at our own failings, we see such a swamp that nothing in another can equal it. That is why we turn away, and make much of the faults of others. Instead of condemning others, strive to reach inner peace. Keep silent, refrain from judgement. This will raise you above the deadly arrows of slander, insult and outrage and will shield your glowing hearts against all evil."

St. Seraphim of Sarov

I wish some of the hate-filled fundies that get discussed here could read this and absorb it.

[Arete]

Fundie Christians don't identify people who are Christians who are pro-choicers and feminists as true Christians, yet these Christians who're feminists and who're pro-choice don't acknowledge fundie Christians as Christians.

I apologize to everyone. I am just so sick and tired of hearing politicians using Christianity as a reason why they're against something, so when the op posted this photo, I thought that people would understand and sympathize with why not some people might not trust Christians. I'm tired of people such as my dad who're Christian and using the Bible to support why they think that gay marriage shouldn't be law. I really am sorry. I was an asshole. I'm just tired of hearing politicians using Christianity as a tool to pander to their leghumpers.

It gets me so angry that I become frustrated at Christianity. I know that not all Christians are like this, but it gets me so mad when politicians use religion to get their votes. If you don't trust me because of my insane posts, I understand.

To the first bolded, yes I do acknowledge fundie Christians and Christians. Just as I acknowledge far rightwing American asshats as Americans.

I am sick of politicians using Christianity as a reason why they are against something as well. In addition to it being intellectually lazy, there is too much diversity in how American Christians experience and live their faith for anyone to think they can speak for all of us. Believe me, I do sympathize and understand why people may not trust Christians. I do not have issue with answering criticism. What I have issue with is gross caricatures of who Christians are and how they all think. I don't have a good answer as to what is to be done about those who scream the loudest and are the most reactionary. Use the vote, use the pocketbook, explain, educate. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's the best I've got right now, but I am willing to listen to any solution someone else has on how to stop the crazy train short of book banning and re-education camps.

[zcccrv]

My spiritual father (Orthodox term for an experienced person who guides you on your spiritual path with advice and prayer, for those who aren't familiar with the term) posted this tonight on fb. It elaborates a bit on the position AreteJo and I were trying to explain earlier.

"You cannot be too gentle, too kind. Shun even to appear harsh in your treatment of each other. Joy, radiant joy, streams from the face of him who gives and kindles joy in the heart of him who receives. All condemnation is from the devil. Never condemn each other. We condemn others only because we shun knowing ourselves. When we gaze at our own failings, we see such a swamp that nothing in another can equal it. That is why we turn away, and make much of the faults of others. Instead of condemning others, strive to reach inner peace. Keep silent, refrain from judgement. This will raise you above the deadly arrows of slander, insult and outrage and will shield your glowing hearts against all evil."

St. Seraphim of Sarov

I wish some of the hate-filled fundies that get discussed here could read this and absorb it.

Can you at the same time strive to reach your inner peace and condemn another person's actions? I don't think those two are mutually exclusive. And there is perhaps a distinction to be made between condemning the action and the person. The world where everything is about love and understanding is just not the world that exists in reality. I think that judging has become a taboo of sorts when many times it is just a stepping stone for widening your personal acceptance. If everyone is in constant state of trying not to judge it produces an over sensibility to disagreements or simply to misunderstandings. Those two happen all the time and nothing wrong with that.

Didn't you judge the fundies in the last sentence? Do you think it is possible that their twisted way of showing love is in trying to get people closer to their mean God? After all, they are afraid of Him and think he is very real.

[debrand]

What would you like me to do - say all religion is inherently evil and become an atheist? .

I wanted to answer this but had difficulty forming my thoughts into words.

I came to atheism unwillingly. Giving up my faith was not something that I wanted to do but I could not turn off my brain and just accept. Because deconversion for me was difficult, I do not actively try to create more atheists. To be honest, I don't think that the world would be better or worse without religion. Some people need assurances that life has order and meaning. Tho

However, I do think that certain aspects of Christianity are very harmful. Not all Christians hold those beliefs. (Hell, any type of evangelism, dislike of science, the tendency to put people into groups of us versus them, believing that the individual is worthless without god or can't be good, dominionism etc)

I would like for people who decide to remain religious to question their faith and move a bit more to the left. If we met in real life, you'd probably be surprised how open I would be to showing your faith respect. If you prayed, I would politely bow my head. If you wanted to go to church and needed a ride, I'd give you one and sit with you in the pew. I'd do the same thing for a Hindu, Buddhists or Satanist. Hell, I'll even strip naked and join someone for a pagan meeting in the moonlight.

However, if we are in an online debate where people are free to leave the discussion, I will gladly point out that almost every bit of the Jesus story is borderline crazy. Think about it from a nonbeliever's point of view. A god impregnates a virgin who gives birth to him. His son is him but not him. The god preaches common Jewish teachings for three years(seriously, Jesus just taught nothing unusual according to Jewish moral teachings). He then goes to a city to commit suicide by cop. Knowing that he will raise from the dead and be the most powerful person in the universe, god lets himself be killed and raises himself from the dead. Somehow this is considered beautiful even though it doesn't really seem like a sacrifice to me. For some reason, god needed to sacrifice himself to himself in order for humans. Oh and the entire story was borrowed from different similar religious teachings of the time.

So, my answer is I don't care if you believe or not. You seem like a sweet person and I'm glad that your faith(even though it seems crazy to me) gives you peace.

[formergothardite]

Debrand, your post reminded me of the missionary who went to a tribe in Brazil to try and convert them. No one in the tribe believe in any sort of God and their belief system was that people should enjoy the here and now. They didn't keep any sort of history or pass down stories because they saw no point in focusing on things they couldn't see. Their whole society was built around the idea that you don't tell other people what to do and they were very happy and peaceful.

When presented with the stories of Jesus they found them laughable. The idea that people would base their life around something they can't see and don't know actually happened was just silly to them. Faith was not something they had a concept of. They told him that they were happy how they were and they liked him, but they didn't have any use for Jesus. They thought all the wars fought by America and it being common for American parents to hit their children just awful. Eventually they converted the missionary to being an atheist. :lol: He wrote a book about it, but I can't remember the name at this moment.

Anyway, you mentioning your deconversion and how the stories of Jesus look to people who have no faith reminded me of this guy.

[danvillebelle]

Can you at the same time strive to reach your inner peace and condemn another person's actions? I don't think those two are mutually exclusive. And there is perhaps a distinction to be made between condemning the action and the person. The world where everything is about love and understanding is just not the world that exists in reality. I think that judging has become a taboo of sorts when many times it is just a stepping stone for widening your personal acceptance. If everyone is in constant state of trying not to judge it produces an over sensibility to disagreements or simply to misunderstandings. Those two happen all the time and nothing wrong with that.

Didn't you judge the fundies in the last sentence? Do you think it is possible that their twisted way of showing love is in trying to get people closer to their mean God? After all, they are afraid of Him and think he is very real.

I don't think they are mutually exclusive either. Nor did I ever say I don't judge. Obviously, since I post here, I do. The quote was not from me, it was from a SAINT who spent decades in solitary communion with God as a monastic. That is how he achieved that level of humility and joy.

[formergothardite]

I would think that it would be considerably easier to reach that level of joy and humility if you spend a good chunk of time alone. :lol:

[danvillebelle]

I would think that it would be considerably easier to reach that level of joy and humility if you spend a good chunk of time alone. :lol:

Exactly! ; )

He did spend a lot of time with people also...just AFTER the solitude part. That's a pretty common theme in the lives of Orthodox saints...a lot of time alone and at the same time a lot of counsel and prayer with laypeople.

[zcccrv]

I don't think they are mutually exclusive either. Nor did I ever say I don't judge. Obviously, since I post here, I do. The quote was not from me, it was from a SAINT who spent decades in solitary communion with God as a monastic. That is how he achieved that level of humility and joy.

I understand that the quote was not yours but it seemed like you presented it as something to look up to. Please correct me if I misinterpreted you. I personally don't feel like saying All condemnation is from the devil is something that will lead humans to a better place. It's more likely to make them frightened or out of touch with their human nature. Nature that is prone to judging but also learning new stuff from the judgement.

[Arete]

I'll throw in my 2 cents to say I think it is important that the translation uses the word condemnation. At least to me, it doesn't mean you have looked at a person's action and merely judged them to be harmful in whatever context you are using, but that you write that person off as incapable of learning or change. That is what condemning someone means.

[zcccrv]

I'll throw in my 2 cents to say I think it is important that the translation uses the word condemnation. At least to me, it doesn't mean you have looked at a person's action and merely judged them to be harmful in whatever context you are using, but that you write that person off as incapable of learning or change. That is what condemning someone means.

That would mean something quite different to what I assumed. Sorry, English is not my first language. I would agree that writing someone off is not a desirable thing 99% of the time. I still question bringing the Devil into play but I understand the message better.

[Arete]

That would mean something quite different to what I assumed. Sorry, English is not my first language. I would agree that writing someone off is not a desirable thing 99% of the time. I still question bringing the Devil into play but I understand the message better.

This is a very common way of Orthodox monastics to speak. I remember visiting a Orthodox female monastic community. The abbess and I were talking, and I had mentioned that I carried guilt for a particular action that was hardly a credit to my character. The first thing she said to me was "Guilt is of the devil. Change yourself." Meaning not that I should not have felt regret, but staying there without doing something to change left me with no way to go forward or to grow. Or even make restitution.

[zcccrv]

This is a very common way of Orthodox monastics to speak. I remember visiting a Orthodox female monastic community. The abbess and I were talking, and I had mentioned that I carried guilt for a particular action that was hardly a credit to my character. The first thing she said to me was "Guilt is of the devil. Change yourself." Meaning not that I should not have felt regret, but staying there without doing something to change left me with no way to go forward or to grow. Or even make restitution.

I see. So is the devil also the being who tries to lure you to the bad side throughout your life with a chance that he might succeed if you don't make a conscious effort to fight it, or is he just a description for every event in which your (or anyone's) particular weakness gets in the way of your strength/happiness?

[Arete]

In Orthodox theology, the devil is an actual entity. A further spin on Satan. The devil is also used symbolically. Yeah, I know, how come it's both ways....but in this part of the Christian spectrum that's how we roll. One of his big handles in the Orthodox world is "The Liar" or "The Deceiver". So in the examples of the monastics we are discussing, the concept represents a believer not being able to see a solution or a way out, even though it's there or in front of them.

Yes, the devil is also considered a mischief maker in his own right in this system. However, you aren't allowed to hang your personal sins on him or anyone else. Full accountability for what you do. "The devil made me do it" is not an acceptable explaination.

[zcccrv]

In Orthodox theology, the devil is an actual entity. A further spin on Satan. The devil is also used symbolically. Yeah, I know, how come it's both ways....but in this part of the Christian spectrum that's how we roll. One of his big handles in the Orthodox world is "The Liar" or "The Deceiver". So in the examples of the monastics we are discussing, the concept represents a believer not being able to see a solution or a way out, even though it's there or in front of them.

Yes, the devil is also considered a mischief maker in his own right in this system. However, you aren't allowed to hang your personal sins on him or anyone else. Full accountability for what you do. "The devil made me do it" is not an acceptable explaination.

It's interesting to learn more about your religion. I am personally only familiar with Catholicism. To try and draw a comparison- if I view Catholicism as a self-help book in a sense that it does provide a framework that ought to "help" (provide answers, security and comfort) but it never actually tests out if the content applies, I view Orthodox theology as a children's parable. It's bound to apply because that's the whole point. It looses some of the Catholic gravitas and consistency (imagined by me as a make-belief believer) in favor of greater applicability.

Not to seem like I'm only asking question, if there are things about atheism that I can answer I'd be happy to.

[Boogalou]

Debrand, your post reminded me of the missionary who went to a tribe in Brazil to try and convert them. No one in the tribe believe in any sort of God and their belief system was that people should enjoy the here and now. They didn't keep any sort of history or pass down stories because they saw no point in focusing on things they couldn't see. Their whole society was built around the idea that you don't tell other people what to do and they were very happy and peaceful.

When presented with the stories of Jesus they found them laughable. The idea that people would base their life around something they can't see and don't know actually happened was just silly to them. Faith was not something they had a concept of. They told him that they were happy how they were and they liked him, but they didn't have any use for Jesus. They thought all the wars fought by America and it being common for American parents to hit their children just awful. Eventually they converted the missionary to being an atheist. :lol: He wrote a book about it, but I can't remember the name at this moment.

Anyway, you mentioning your deconversion and how the stories of Jesus look to people who have no faith reminded me of this guy.

Was it Don't Sleep, There are Snakes: life and language in the Amazonian Jungle by Daniel L. Everett about the Piraha?? It sounds like it (although I remember their beliefs slightly differently, they had gods that appeared to them in the Jungle that took the form of people.... I can't really remember, I read it four or five years ago, I think). The guy went to them as a missionary to learn their language and then translate the Bible. First, he translated and recorded the New Testament and everyone listened to the part where John the Baptist got beheaded over and over again because they thought it was hilarious. They also thought the missionaries testimony was funny. But yeah, this guy ended up losing his belief and divorcing his wife because of his work in the Amazon. He also argued against Noam Chomsky's theory of universal grammar. He packed a whole lot into that book, lol. That is if we are thinking of the same book. If not, maybe it is a more common phenomenon than I thought.

[formergothardite]

Was it Don't Sleep, There are Snakes: life and language in the Amazonian Jungle by Daniel L. Everett about the Piraha?? It sounds like it (although I remember their beliefs slightly differently, they had gods that appeared to them in the Jungle that took the form of people.... I can't really remember, I read it four or five years ago, I think). The guy went to them as a missionary to learn their language and then translate the Bible. First, he translated and recorded the New Testament and everyone listened to the part where John the Baptist got beheaded over and over again because they thought it was hilarious. They also thought the missionaries testimony was funny. But yeah, this guy ended up losing his belief and divorcing his wife because of his work in the Amazon. He also argued against Noam Chomsky's theory of universal grammar. He packed a whole lot into that book, lol. That is if we are thinking of the same book. If not, maybe it is a more common phenomenon than I thought.

I think it is and I am probably just misremembering parts.

Here is a video about the guy if anyone else is interested:

[thoughtful]

I just read through this thread and the "buffet" one, and have pretty much the same thing to say about both.

I'm an atheist because I just can't make myself believe in anything supernatural. That doesn't affect my respect for people who believe, if they are not harming others. And the people of faith that I know are not hurting anyone with their beliefs. Atheism is not automatically the same as anti-theism.

Fundies who are harming their children, and those shoving religion into government -- that's a different story. But I don't think all of Christianity (or any other faith) should be condemned for that.