Poster- Christianity inherently abusive

[formergothardite]

I have a question for people who believe pretty much everyone, even if they don't believe in Jesus goes to heaven, what exactly was the point of Jesus dying on the cross then? Or do you not believe that actually happened? If everyone gets into heaven without Jesus, then God just sent his son to be tortured and killed for no reason.

[AVENues]

I have a question for people who believe pretty much everyone, even if they don't believe in Jesus goes to heaven, what exactly was the point of Jesus dying on the cross then? Or do you not believe that actually happened? If everyone gets into heaven without Jesus, then God just sent his son to be tortured and killed for no reason.

Because the biblical gawd just *loves* him some good torture and sacrifices. Asked Abraham to kill Isac, telling him, lol bro, JK last minute. Flooded the Earth. Tortured the family of Job just to show off to Saytn. He raided entire cities (Sodoma and Gomorrha) before someone asks, oh what cities? He sent all kinds of shitty things to make Egyptian inhabitants miserable. Then, surprise surprise, holy ass almighty had taken their firstborns! Adviced a man to fornicate with a servant - that's fucking RAPE because I doubt she was attracted to 90yo Senior Citizen who just so happened to be the boss, and after Sarah had gotten pregnant at age 1111leventy, he told "dad" to get rid of the "bastard child" (HATE that word) and send them to the desert. WTF dude?

[AVENues]

bar3GOzDNzg

The homophobic and slut shaming, misogynist god from the bible destroys Sodom and Gomora. *check out the whipped up, blood covered, bruised and battered Jesus with his "father".

[AVENues]

Bible kill count. How many did the biblical god kill out of boredom, rage, self-righteousness, fun, showing off, intolerance, hatred, jackassery, and other very valid and acceptable reasons? Nearly half as many Jews Hitler killed during his reign.

[AVENues]

*I forgot to mention jealousy. Sickly jealousy which is a red flag for people when dating. Sickly jealous people are usually usurping psychopaths that don't treat human beings as individuals but as their own belongings.

Like when Almighty ordered for the golden calf to be torn apart and melted. And they had to pour molten gold in people's ears. Exodus at it's best. No wonder it took them forty years to settle down with hiccups like that.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Like when Almighty ordered for the golden calf to be torn apart and melted. And they had to pour molten gold in people's ears. Exodus at it's best. No wonder it took them forty years to settle down with hiccups like that.

I don't believe there was any pouring of molten gold into ears.

[AVENues]

Without that part, would you say that the biblical god's obsessive behaviour is acceptable in general? I'm currently googling it but I have you know, this bit was taught throughout high school bible classes and at the confirmation, we were required to repeat it before the whole church, as a truth from the bible. Again, without it, all the other stuff is okay, would the fact that if I had bullshit shoved down my throat, make a homophobic, sadistic, woman-hating and sacrifice-loving god acceptable and lovable to you?

[formergothardite]

I don't believe there was any pouring of molten gold into ears.

The gold was melted, ground up and they had to drink it. I think a bunch of people got killed by God too.

[Sobeknofret]

All of these objections are true *IF* you accept the Bible as literal and completely inerrant. Most Christians do not believe that, and no one with any amount of reason believes that.

For example, the Exodus. The Book of Exodus simply cannot be literally true. The Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt, although they did live there. There is no shred of archaeological evidence that more than a million people made a single long trek through the desert to Caanan. There was no huge "exodus" of well over a million people in the reign of any pharaoh that is even hinted at in Egyptian records, and given that the Egyptians had a bureaucracy par excellance, something that big would have been noticed. The first record of Israelites anywhere in Egypt comes from a stele erected by the pharaoh Merenptah, a son of Rameses II. He mentions them as being one of a number of foreign countries that he had conquered and carried off plunder from. So by then, Israel was a well established nation, and had established cities and villages that were plundered and raided.

What happened in the Exodus? *Something* happened, something large enough to remain etched in the memories of Hebrew writers, who were compiling a history of their people, endeavoring to show how they were favored by God. Perhaps it was that a group of Hebrew settlers had the military might to establish a permanent capital for the Hebrew tribes to slowly, gradually, gravitate to. Perhaps it was something else entirely that led them to remember this. But a literal interpretation is not possible; there's simply no support for it. Most Christians don't take it as literal either. A small subsect *does* insist on a literal interpretation. Those of us who see the Bible as a book written by men for men, filled with legend, metaphor, allegory, and poetry, which have an underlying kernel of truth to it, get tarred with their brush, and it's simply not the case.

[formergothardite]

So is Jesus part of legend part? Or is that part actually true in your opinion?

[AVENues]

The gold was melted, ground up and they had to drink it. I think a bunch of people got killed by God too.

My fellow bible class brainwashing recoveree. Thank you. Okay it wasn't poured in the ears. Chugging down molten metal is much better...

[formergothardite]

My fellow bible class brainwashing recoveree. Thank you. Okay it wasn't poured in the ears. Chugging down molten metal is much better...

I don't think it was hot metal, just after the calf was melted it was allowed to harden, then it was ground up and THEN people were forced to drink it. And then a whole bunch of people got smote anyway. There was a snake invasion at one point too where God sent vipers to kill people and you had to look at a special rod or you would die.

It is always good to find out that a childhood of brainwashing can eventually come in handy. :lol:

ETA: The snake thing is when they realized that it shouldn't take that long to cross the desert, they had no food or water and they complained. So God sent vipers to kill them. So then Moses made some sort of snake and if people looked at it they wouldn't die.

[AVENues]

Yes, sort of. You know I think if you weren't here and if you would not represent former branwashees as an established and valued member, I don't think that newer members would have the courage to speak up. Molten or not, horrible. Horrible. Even if they had been forced to eating it with Iranian caviar, it's awful. As to the very material itself: I remember *most* of the bible to a certain extent so that I know what I'm standing up to. : ) Thanks for the correction. : ) One less mistake I will make in the future.

[formergothardite]

Yes, sort of. You know I think if you weren't here and if you would not represent former branwashees as an established and valued member, I don't think that newer members would have the courage to speak up. Molten or not, horrible. Horrible. Even if they had been forced to eating it with Iranian caviar, it's awful. As to the very material itself: I remember *most* of the bible to a certain extent so that I know what I'm standing up to. : ) Thanks for the correction. : ) One less mistake I will make in the future.

Well I was forced to memorize large portions of the Bible. That helps. I can still quote a good portion of Matthew. Some people have cartoon jingles that stay with them from childhood. I have the Bible.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Without that part, would you say that the biblical god's obsessive behaviour is acceptable in general? I'm currently googling it but I have you know, this bit was taught throughout high school bible classes and at the confirmation, we were required to repeat it before the whole church, as a truth from the bible. Again, without it, all the other stuff is okay, would the fact that if I had bullshit shoved down my throat, make a homophobic, sadistic, woman-hating and sacrifice-loving god acceptable and lovable to you?

I think about it everyday. I have a lot of questions, a lot of problems reconciling the old and new testaments. I am really not the person to ask religious questions at this point; I'm too confused about it myself.

[Sobeknofret]

So is Jesus part of legend part? Or is that part actually true in your opinion?

Why does my opinion even matter? We're not debating my personal belief.

What I was getting at, and perhaps poorly (I love history/archaeology and get long-winded)was that most Christians do not accept the inerrancy of the Bible, view is as a book written by and for humans, shrouded in metaphor and allegory, built around a core of truth. That we have to discern the truth of the Bible, and that it's open to interpretations. The Biblical literalists believe that every word is directly from God and must be taken at face value. Which is weird, because several people on here, atheist or agnostic or whatever, keep insisting that there is only One True Way to read the Bible, and that is Absolutely Literally, and ignoring those of us who keep saying that there's nuance and metaphor.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

My fellow bible class brainwashing recoveree. Thank you. Okay it wasn't poured in the ears. Chugging down molten metal is much better...

LOL well if it makes it any better, it was scattered into water and THEN they had to drink it.

[AVENues]

*Yes, now that you mention, some story with a snake emerges from the dumpster loo of the back of my mind. Moses waving around his two eyed snake. Isn't it like, it would turn into a real snake? There was an episode on X files where they pulled that bit off.

**I have the Bible (mixed with bullshit), Slavic pagan mythology, cartoons (Smurts and South Park), the X files and some movies. It is a horrible, nauseating mixture of unhealthy brainfood. Like chocolatte dipped bacon with whipped cream and ketchup, frozen as a sundae. My mind is effed up. :ew:

PPS: hooh! So many replies! Can't... keep... up!!! Hayulp! :P

[AVENues]

NALLY: gold really is edible. Glod flakes, not nuggets, though : )))

But I guess this *isn't* quite what they were offered : )

[formergothardite]

Why does my opinion even matter? We're not debating my personal belief.

What I was getting at, and perhaps poorly (I love history/archaeology and get long-winded)was that most Christians do not accept the inerrancy of the Bible, view is as a book written by and for humans, shrouded in metaphor and allegory, built around a core of truth. That we have to discern the truth of the Bible, and that it's open to interpretations. The Biblical literalists believe that every word is directly from God and must be taken at face value. Which is weird, because several people on here, atheist or agnostic or whatever, keep insisting that there is only One True Way to read the Bible, and that is Absolutely Literally, and ignoring those of us who keep saying that there's nuance and metaphor.

I was just curious. How do you choose which parts of the Bible to say aren't real and which parts to believe actually happened? I was not raised to view the Bible that way and it is hard for me to understand. Posters here have said that God isn't abusive because he isn't REALLY going to send people who don't have a relationship with him to hell, but if that is true, then the parts of the Bible about Jesus coming here as a Savior and dying are completely irrelevant. So I was just curious if Jesus enters into the legend part of the bible for at least your branch of Christianity.

What is the core truth that the Bible is built around?

[AVENues]

What is the core truth that the Bible is built around? - I know you weren't talking to me. But I love, love that question.

No. One. Knows.

I've seen the movie, Book of Eli... he made it through the desert just to carry the one bible left and deliver it in the new civilization. So that the bullshit will happen all over again.

[France Nolan]

I was taught that NONE of the Bible is to be taken literally. Adam and Eve? Story. Noah and the Ark? Story. Jesus' miracles? Stories, including when he rose from the dead. I don't know if this is an official Lutheran position, but I was taught that Jesus did not literally rise from the dead. No one had a tape recorder, and often the stories were recorded long after the events were supposed to have taken place. Everything in the Bible is a metaphor.

Then again, while I was raised Lutheran my family is also Unitarian meaning we reject the idea of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). We believe in one God and view Jesus more as a great prophet/teacher. We don't view him as a separate entity from God.

Again, this is not an official Lutheran position/theological argument, but I was also raised to believe that to say only the "Christian" God and Jesus was the "true" God is to limit God. God is limitless. If God wanted to appear as someone/something else, He can. My parents didn't refute that Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, and other religions could be "true" religions.

[formergothardite]

I was taught that NONE of the Bible is to be taken literally. Adam and Eve? Story. Noah and the Ark? Story. Jesus' miracles? Stories, including when he rose from the dead. I don't know if this is an official Lutheran position, but I was taught that Jesus did not literally rise from the dead. No one had a tape recorder, and often the stories were recorded long after the events were supposed to have taken place. Everything in the Bible is a metaphor.

Then again, while I was raised Lutheran my family is also Unitarian meaning we reject the idea of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). We believe in one God and view Jesus more as a great prophet/teacher. We don't view him as a separate entity from God.

Again, this is not an official Lutheran position/theological argument, but I was also raised to believe that to say only the "Christian" God and Jesus was the "true" God is to limit God. God is limitless. If God wanted to appear as someone/something else, He can. My parents didn't refute that Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, and other religions could be "true" religions.

This approach to the Bible actually makes sense to me. The approach that says Jesus literally was the son of God and died for our sins and rose again, but you don't need Jesus to go to heaven doesn't because then there was just no point in Jesus at all. Unless God just wanted to torture His son for fun.

[danvillebelle]

I have a question for people who believe pretty much everyone, even if they don't believe in Jesus goes to heaven, what exactly was the point of Jesus dying on the cross then? Or do you not believe that actually happened? If everyone gets into heaven without Jesus, then God just sent his son to be tortured and killed for no reason.

I will answer as best I can from an Orthodox perspective (one that is still learning and makes mistakes).

The Orthodox understanding of the crucifixion is NOT the same as the Protestant one. It was not some judicial process where Jesus was being *punished* for our sins. Christ died on the cross and then went to hell to destroy DEATH. The troparion we sing on Pascha and for weeks afterwards is "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life." I remember reading a piece by Frederica Mathewes-Green once, where she was trying to explain to an Orthodox bishop from another country the Protestant understanding of the crucifixion, and he was horrified and said "They actually believe that?!?"

I have asked many Orthodox priests if people who never heard of Christ are in hell, and the answer is always no. Orthodoxy is much more open to leaving things as mysteries we perhaps don't fully understand, and is not obsessed with explaining and analyzing everything down to the last jot and tittle.

Edited to add: this understanding of the crucifixion was the universally accepted one in the Church for a thousand years. Only after the Great Schism in 1066 and then the Protestant Reformation 500 years later did the meanings begin to be changed. People forget that all during the Middle Ages when Catholicism was predominant in Europe, and after all the fallout and splitting of the Reformation, Orthodoxy was always still just chugging along in the East, unchanged.

And another thing - from the Orthodox perspective the Bible was NEVER meant to be pulled out of the entirety of the Church (scripture, tradition, worship) and used by itself. Sola Scriptura makes no logical sense from an Orthodox point of view.

[France Nolan]

Yeah, we also weren't taught that Jesus died as a punishment for our sins. We were taught that he died for us because he loved us and wanted to "take away the sin of the world". The church line was that he died so that death "could hold no more dominion over us".