Poster- Christianity inherently abusive

[holierthanyou]

I saw this on facebook this morning and had to share here:

[Magdelope]

Those words makes me so uncomfortable.

It's a good point.

...ugh, seriously uncomfortable.

[yewchapel]

If by 'Christianity' you mean 'particular strands of Christian theology', then maybe. But it does not apply to all Christian theology. WASP Christianity does not equal the whole of Christianity.

[debrand]

If by 'Christianity' you mean 'particular strands of Christian theology', then maybe. But it does not apply to all Christian theology. WASP Christianity does not equal the whole of Christianity.

A lot of American Christianity has been strongly influenced by Calvinists. Even people who are not Calvinists seem to have adopted some of their teachings.

Tell me if this is incorrect, Catholics(and I suppose Anglicans) do not believe that human nature is evil but that having grace helps lead people more easily to being good. I probably explained that badly but Catholics and Anglicans view human nature differently than a lot of American evangelicals, Baptists etc.

The meme explains many of the Christians in my area and those who lean politically to the right

[OkToBeTakei]

A lot of American Christianity has been strongly influenced by Calvinists. Even people who are not Calvinists seem to have adopted some of their teachings.

Tell me if this is incorrect, Catholics(and I suppose Anglicans) do not believe that human nature is evil but that having grace helps lead people more easily to being good. I probably explained that badly but Catholics and Anglicans view human nature differently than a lot of American evangelicals, Baptists etc.

The meme explains many of the Christians in my area and those who lean politically to the right

I'm no expert. yewchapel does this stuff regarding religion really well. But for what it is worth it is the 'I will punish you' 'You are unworthy' 'Obey me' and 'I do everything for you' that absolutely has no bearing in the way I was brought up (religiously, that is RC btw.)

Talk about your fire and brimstone. Which was cartoonish religion when I was growing up. When you are taught that God will forgive even the worst sinner and sin then you kind of ignore that bullshit.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't believe in an anthropomorphic (human-like) deity, but do believe that human-like language was used because that's what people were able to relate to.

While many metaphors for God are used in the Bible, one of them is a jealous husband. It's quite likely that people of the time related, and reacted with terror, to the image of a violently jealous husband. When shit happened around them (ie. pretty brutal siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in the middle of the summer, with people dying of thirst and starvation), that was how they related to it.

[rward]

I don't believe in an anthropomorphic (human-like) deity, but do believe that human-like language was used because that's what people were able to relate to.

While many metaphors for God are used in the Bible, one of them is a jealous husband. It's quite likely that people of the time related, and reacted with terror, to the image of a violently jealous husband. When shit happened around them (ie. pretty brutal siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in the middle of the summer, with people dying of thirst and starvation), that was how they related to it.

This isn't exactly evidence of God, you know. It's evidence that a violent, abusive people made up a violent, abusive god to lead them.

[LeatherCouch]

All of those statements are based on scripture.

Deut 11:28, Deut 8:19, Deut 7:4, Deut 5:7, Ex 20:3, Ex 18:11, Josh 24:19-20....I could go on and on, but they aren't hard to find. The Bible is full of stories of God's cruelty and jealousy. I think that poster represents God, not Christianity, and I do believe there is a distinction.

[holierthanyou]

All of those statements are based on scripture.

Deut 11:28, Deut 8:19, Deut 7:4, Deut 5:7, Ex 20:3, Ex 18:11, Josh 24:19-20....I could go on and on, but they aren't hard to find. The Bible is full of stories of God's cruelty and jealousy. I think that poster represents God, not Christianity, and I do believe there is a distinction.

Yes, the subject title was just a subject title, not theologically thought out argument.

I do think that poster represents the Christian Bible's (no difference to me whether a Catholic Douey-Rhimes Bible, Fundy KJV 1611 Bible, or NRSV "WASP" Bible)depiction of God and His relationship with people on earth.

It makes me uncomfortable as well, but I appreciated it for the discomfort it brought me as someone still identifying as Christian in some way.

[Ruby Slippers]

lolyshit.

[yewchapel]

A lot of American Christianity has been strongly influenced by Calvinists. Even people who are not Calvinists seem to have adopted some of their teachings.

Tell me if this is incorrect, Catholics(and I suppose Anglicans) do not believe that human nature is evil but that having grace helps lead people more easily to being good. I probably explained that badly but Catholics and Anglicans view human nature differently than a lot of American evangelicals, Baptists etc.

The meme explains many of the Christians in my area and those who lean politically to the right

I couldn't tell you about Catholics and Anglican theology varies so much - you get Calvinistic Anglicans (Sydney Archdiocese, for example).

It's not the Calvinism here, it's the particular atonement theology (atonement theology is theology dealing with the meaning of the crucifixion) that is hinted at, that is penal substitutionary atonement. 'Christus Victor' is the classical atonement theory for Catholicism and traditional Anglicanism, but I know of Anglican churches who only preach PSA. PSA is the one about how people are so sinful, only Jesus' death could make God love them (paraphrasing) - Christus Victor is more about Jesus defeating death, rather than a focus on people's sinfulness. So the kind of Christianity in the image? Absolutely exists. Readings of the Bible that line up with that absolutely exist. But most Christians in the world are either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, whose theologies are rather different.

[Dinorah]

It might relate to some strands of Christianity, but otherwise I find it's really an oversimplification.

[Mama Mia]

Doesn't sound anything like any church I've ever been to. Except the "I Love You" part.

[formergothardite]

I really had no idea so many Christian churches taught that God doesn't need to be put first in the lives of followers, that his commandments don't have to be obeyed or that he doesn't see and know everything people are doing and thinking. That is interesting. I guess because I am surrounded by IFB and SB who seem to teach that, it feels that everyone teaches those things. I grew up singing songs about being careful what you think because God is watching and can see. The Father up above is looking down with love so you better be careful!

[France Nolan]

This is definitely not what I got from my mainstream, ELCA upbringing. We see salvation as a gift from God, and we only need to accept it. There is nothing we can do to "make" God save us. There is also nothing we can do to make God love us any less.

The ELCA does not subscribe to the idea that the Bible is the actual, literal word of God. The Bible is a book written by man and therefore open to interpretation.

I have no doubt that some Christians believe these things. I just don't think it's fair to paint all Christians with the same brush. Christianity is an umbrella term for many different denominations.

[holierthanyou]

This is definitely not what I got from my mainstream, ELCA upbringing. We see salvation as a gift from God, and we only need to accept it. There is nothing we can do to "make" God save us. There is also nothing we can do to make God love us any less.

The ELCA does not subscribe to the idea that the Bible is the actual, literal word of God. The Bible is a book written by man and therefore open to interpretation.

I have no doubt that some Christians believe these things. I just don't think it's fair to paint all Christians with the same brush. Christianity is an umbrella term for many different denominations.

Fine, the thread should have been titled "Poster: The Book that all of Christianity is based on is inherently abusive"

[keen23]

Fine, the thread should have been titled "Poster: The Book that all of Christianity is based on is inherently abusive"

I'd fix that for you, but it's too long of a title.

But, yeah, my idea of Christianity isn't too far away from what the poster is saying, and I was raised in Catholicism and UCC Congregationalist. "God is watching you and everything you do" is a freaky concept to me.

[Rachel333]

I remember seeing this when I was just starting to transition out of Christianity. It made quite an impact, actually, as rang quite true to me and really made me think.

[debrand]

I want to be fair to Christianity. Jesus taught many positive concepts; however, he didn't teach anything new to Jewish thought. Infact, Hillel taught a version of Jesus' golden rule. The Old Testament, for all its violence, does teach that we should help the poor and needy.

Decent people design a loving god to worship and will pick out bible verses that support a kind, loving being. I don't have any problem with that. Life is tough, if you want to believe in a loving creator/savior, I don't care.

There are aspects to Christianity that can easily be twisted to hurt people. I happen to think that the concept of free will can be very hurtful. I was taught that suffering happens because of free will. Why is there free will? So, humans will decide freely to love god but that means that all the rapes of children, torture of innocent people, starvation etc occurs because an all powerful being wants love. That is pretty narcissistic.

Yet, not having free will is also problematic because you end up with an all powerful god sending most of humankind to an eternity of torture.

I meet many Christians who believe that a person can not be 'good' unless they are Christian. They often deny any wrong that other Christians do by claiming that bad people are not 'real' Christians. Those are usually the ones who believe that they are worthless without god(Like the meme)and tend to focus on Paul to the exclusion of Jesus.

Some Christians(Burris, I think is one) do not believe in hell nor do they take the bible literally. They tend to be more liberal and put more emphasis on how they as individuals follow Christ instead of what others do. Overall, they tend to be more positive representatives of their faith(actually, I think most FJer Christians are good representatives of their faith)

Christians sometimes accuse other churches of believing that they are saved by works. However, if you ask the members of those 'saved by works' churches, they also say that they believe that they are saved by grace. :shrug: I think that some Christians believe that they are safe from the more negative aspects of their belief system if they believe in faith alone(or some form) but I don't think that is true.

I'd like to start a thread on American Christianity because some of the European Christians make me think that the way you practice faith is different from the Christianity I grew up with(yeah, I ended on a preposition)

[2xx1xy1JD]

This isn't exactly evidence of God, you know. It's evidence that a violent, abusive people made up a violent, abusive god to lead them.

I wasn't trying to prove the existence of God.

There are actually several anthropomorphic metaphors used for God throughout the Bible, in different parts and at different times.

God as a violently jealous husband is definitely one of them, esp. in the Prophets. When people in the northern kingdom were conquered by Assyria, and the southern kingdom was conquered by Babylonia, times were brutal. Out of the different preachers and prophets around, only the ones with the darker visions would have seemed credible - even though those same preacher/prophets would have been previously rejected for being TOO dark and pessimistic.

Other metaphors are quite the opposite. God as a loving parent is also used. In some cases, the language is quite feminine. One of the names used is El Shaddai - which is related to the Hebrew word for breasts. Another is ha-rahamim (the merciful) - which is related to the Hebrew word for uterus.

[yewchapel]

I really had no idea so many Christian churches taught that God doesn't need to be put first in the lives of followers, that his commandments don't have to be obeyed or that he doesn't see and know everything people are doing and thinking. That is interesting. I guess because I am surrounded by IFB and SB who seem to teach that, it feels that everyone teaches those things. I grew up singing songs about being careful what you think because God is watching and can see. The Father up above is looking down with love so you better be careful!

I think that most Christian churches do teach those things but from a different perspective. Most churches, for example, will teach that God is omniscient but not in a way that mean He is looking out for things to punish you for. Similarly, following God's commandments means loving God and loving others to most Christians. While a different emphasis might seem like a minimal difference, in reality it makes a big difference to how a person's faith shows itself.

Like I said, most Christians in the world are either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, with smaller amounts of Anglicans and Lutherans and other Mainline Protestant denominations. IFB and SB theology is a tiny minority.

[Mama Mia]

I think that most Christian churches do teach those things but from a different perspective. Most churches, for example, will teach that God is omniscient but not in a way that mean He is looking out for things to punish you for. Similarly, following God's commandments means loving God and loving others to most Christians. While a different emphasis might seem like a minimal difference, in reality it makes a big difference to how a person's faith shows itself.

Like I said, most Christians in the world are either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, with smaller amounts of Anglicans and Lutherans and other Mainline Protestant denominations. IFB and SB theology is a tiny minority.

Exactly. I never thought the idea of obeying the commandments was so that God doesn't look down on you and smite you - I thought the idea of the commandments was to have a set of pretty basic ethics to live by. Not that falling short in following them will lead to eternal damnation. And the commandments if you look at them are mostly basic common sense - don't steal, don't kill, don't cheat etc.,

[LeatherCouch]

I really had no idea so many Christian churches taught that God doesn't need to be put first in the lives of followers, that his commandments don't have to be obeyed or that he doesn't see and know everything people are doing and thinking. That is interesting. I guess because I am surrounded by IFB and SB who seem to teach that, it feels that everyone teaches those things. I grew up singing songs about being careful what you think because God is watching and can see. The Father up above is looking down with love so you better be careful!

Me too. I did not know any Christians who believed differently than ^that^ until I was in my 30's. I still have a difficult time wrapping my head around Christians who don't take at least some of the old testament literally. They might be the minority, but that is the norm where I live. God is watching everything, the punishment for sin is eternal death (hell), so love me or else. The majority of the Bible Belt would agree with that, I suspect.

[formergothardite]

In these other denominations is hell not the punishment for sin? Or is it more like a universal reconciliation thing where everybody goes to heaven so there is no punishment for not having a relationship with God?

There was also a ton of commandments more than just lying, stealing, cheating when I was growing up! Thinking bad things was just as bad as doing them. This is based off Jesus saying that anyone who looked at a woman with lust in his heart was committing adultery. So God could see your thoughts and just thinking angry thoughts was as bad as if you had acted on them.

It is amazing how people can read the Bible and walk away with completely different ideas on what it actually said.

[OkToBeTakei]

In these other denominations is hell not the punishment for sin? Or is it more like a universal reconciliation thing where everybody goes to heaven so there is no punishment for not having a relationship with God?

There was also a ton of commandments more than just lying, stealing, cheating when I was growing up! Thinking bad things was just as bad as doing them. This is based off Jesus saying that anyone who looked at a woman with lust in his heart was committing adultery. So God could see your thoughts and just thinking angry thoughts was as bad as if you had acted on them.

It is amazing how people can read the Bible and walk away with completely different ideas on what it actually said.

In all the years (some twenty) of attending a catholic church, being educated in catholic schools, going on retreats, the nuns, the priests the whole catholic shebang. I have never read the bible. I was never instructed to read the bible. Parts of it maybe. But not to the extent of 'Bible Study' I see mentioned here. Even then I assumed, or I assume I was led to believe it was a guide not a literal instruction in how to live. How could it be, it was interpreted by men. Honestly no idea wether I had a shockingly lax religious upbringing or I was asleep.

Hell was only for those who did not repent. Oh and Glaswegian protestants who supported Rangers Football club :lol: