Poster- Christianity inherently abusive

[treehugger]

Treehugger, do you believe that people who reject God(like many of us here) go to hell?

Yes. That being said, I believe in the existence of hell as a void. I was not taught that hell was an actual place of fire and brimstone. The book of Revelations is so full of imagery I never took it literally. We were always taught that hell is the place where God isn't. As a person who views God as a source of strength and comfort I personally would not want to be there - however, when I read of the experiences people have with a god who is abusive and hateful, I guess hell wouldn't be so bad.

Also, because I do believe God is merciful and could save anyone he wants, I can't look at it as an "us verses them" thing. I don't know who God will chose to save in the end. All I can be sure of is my own salvation.

[debrand]

I think that it can be very difficult for religious people to understand why nonreligious people find their idea of hell offensive. After all, if you don't believe in hell, why worry about what others think?

However, imagine that we are all close friends. I invite you to my house, watch your kids and express love for you. One day we have a slight disagreement. I announce calmly that you deserve to have a drug cartel, capture you and spend a long time slowly torturing you. Even though you know sociopaths aren't going to show up on your doorstep, you'd probably rethink your friendship or even wonder if I wasn't dangerous.

Even simple separation from god means that I want you locked up somewhere where you will be miserable and away from your loved ones forever.

Of course, nonbelievers find the concept of hell offensive because it means that their friends and loved ones accept that they deserve such treatment.

I'm always relieved when Christians tell me that they don't believe in a literal hell.

This is a fascinating thread and I is an example of why this forum is great.

[zcccrv]

I think that it can be very difficult for religious people to understand why nonreligious people find their idea of hell offensive. After all, if you don't believe in hell, why worry about what others think?

However, imagine that we are all close friends. I invite you to my house, watch your kids and express love for you. One day we have a slight disagreement. I announce calmly that you deserve to have a drug cartel, capture you and spend a long time slowly torturing you. Even though you know sociopaths aren't going to show up on your doorstep, you'd probably rethink your friendship or even wonder if I wasn't dangerous.

Even simple separation from god means that I want you locked up somewhere where you will be miserable and away from your loved ones forever.

Of course, nonbelievers find the concept of hell offensive because it means that their friends and loved ones accept that they deserve such treatment.

I'm always relieved when Christians tell me that they don't believe in a literal hell.

This is a fascinating thread and I is an example of why this forum is great.

Thanks for that. Better explained than I did.

[debrand]

Agreed! As someone who isn't Christian, I'm enjoying the theological discussion about the differences between different groups within Christianity, particularly as I hadn't known the unique theology of the Orthodox churches.

Me too! It fascinates me how people interpret the same book and religion in so many different ways.

[formergothardite]

Yes. That being said, I believe in the existence of hell as a void. I was not taught that hell was an actual place of fire and brimstone. The book of Revelations is so full of imagery I never took it literally. We were always taught that hell is the place where God isn't. As a person who views God as a source of strength and comfort I personally would not want to be there - however, when I read of the experiences people have with a god who is abusive and hateful, I guess hell wouldn't be so bad.

Also, because I do believe God is merciful and could save anyone he wants, I can't look at it as an "us verses them" thing. I don't know who God will chose to save in the end. All I can be sure of is my own salvation.

When you say a place where God isn't, do you mean just living this life, dying and then it is all over? Or after death will those who reject the idea of God be sent some place as some sort of punishment? Is hell/heaven a punishment/reward system for you? If God is saving people from hell, it doesn't sound like it is going to be some sort of fun theme park.

[treehugger]

I think that it can be very difficult for religious people to understand why nonreligious people find their idea of hell offensive. After all, if you don't believe in hell, why worry about what others think?

However, imagine that we are all close friends. I invite you to my house, watch your kids and express love for you. One day we have a slight disagreement. I announce calmly that you deserve to have a drug cartel, capture you and spend a long time slowly torturing you. Even though you know sociopaths aren't going to show up on your doorstep, you'd probably rethink your friendship or even wonder if I wasn't dangerous.

Even simple separation from god means that I want you locked up somewhere where you will be miserable and away from your loved ones forever.

Of course, nonbelievers find the concept of hell offensive because it means that their friends and loved ones accept that they deserve such treatment.

I'm always relieved when Christians tell me that they don't believe in a literal hell.

This is a fascinating thread and I is an example of why this forum is great.

Even as a Christian, I find the concept of hell offensive (even as a void). I wouldn't want anyone to be locked up away from someone and miserable. I really, really don't. I also have a hard time with the idea that people deserve bad things. I don't think anyone deserves to be raped, tortured, hurt, etc... and it saddens me that Christianity has been found guilty of committing so many of these offensive acts. There is still a lot of stuff in the Bible that I have a hard time coming to grips with, and I don't know near all the answers. It is probably hugely inconsistent of me, but I prefer to focus on the good things of Christianity (mostly the teachings of Christ) and hope and pray that in the end, no one goes to hell.

Also, I am so sorry that Christianity and Christians have hurt so many of you. I don't believe that is how it was supposed to be and it breaks my heart that Christians can be so cruel and hateful. I have personally known it only as a religion of love, but I realize that for so many people that is the exact opposite of how they have experienced Christianity.

[treehugger]

When you say a place where God isn't, do you mean just living this life, dying and then it is all over? Or after death will those who reject the idea of God be sent some place as some sort of punishment? Is hell/heaven a punishment/reward system for you? If God is saving people from hell, it doesn't sound like it is going to be some sort of fun theme park.

No, I don't believe it is a reward system. I honestly just believe hell is a void. I know this is going to sound disjointed and weird and I am sorry in advance, I just don't know how else to put it. I find having a belief in God very comforting and fulfilling. For me, personally, to not be able to have God in my life would be horrible. So that is why, I would not want to have that void (wow - I am terrible at explaining things!). I guess for me: heaven=God is there. Hell=God is not there. Does that make any sense at all?

[formergothardite]

No, I don't believe it is a reward system. I honestly just believe hell is a void. I know this is going to sound disjointed and weird and I am sorry in advance, I just don't know how else to put it. I find having a belief in God very comforting and fulfilling. For me, personally, to not be able to have God in my life would be horrible. So that is why, I would not want to have that void (wow - I am terrible at explaining things!). I guess for me: heaven=God is there. Hell=God is not there. Does that make any sense at all?

So no one really needs to be saved because there is nothing to be saved from? It is more like choose what option is best for you?

[AVENues]

You have found comfort in a make-believe imaginary deity that you came up with, all by yourself, spiking it with heavily recited biblical mambo jambo about goodness. That god of yours is entirely a creation of your own mind and the indoctrination that you might have been through.

You have realized that there must be some sort of a force that is stronger than man, stronger than nature, and that force must be on your side and protect you from (maybe other deities that you have heard of.)

To me, this is the adult version of carrying around a raggy napkin that children cannot sleep without. If you truly had an idea what the mainstream deities and those in cults are all about, you would never ever call your protective spirit God.

[Sobeknofret]

So no one really needs to be saved because there is nothing to be saved from? It is more like choose what option is best for you?

I can't speak for Treehugger (love the name BTW!), but as a former Catholic and current Quaker, the concept of "being saved" doesn't really register, nor is it an important part of my faith. I think "getting saved" and being "born again" are particular to certain branches of Christianity, and not others. I remember one of the Orthodox posters saying something similar. Quakers believe that everyone has a bit of the Divine in them, and it's up to the individual to define what "the Divine" is and develop that relationship for themselves, according to their own leadings.

Personally, I remember hearing a quotation that I keep in mind often: "Because God is all-just, we know that there's a Hell. But, because God is all-merciful, we don't know if there's actually anyone in it."

[formergothardite]

I can't speak for Treehugger (love the name BTW!), but as a former Catholic and current Quaker, the concept of "being saved" doesn't really register, nor is it an important part of my faith. I think "getting saved" and being "born again" are particular to certain branches of Christianity, and not others. I remember one of the Orthodox posters saying something similar. Quakers believe that everyone has a bit of the Divine in them, and it's up to the individual to define what "the Divine" is and develop that relationship for themselves, according to their own leadings.

Personally, I remember hearing a quotation that I keep in mind often: "Because God is all-just, we know that there's a Hell. But, because God is all-merciful, we don't know if there's actually anyone in it."

I do realize that some branches of Christianity don't do the whole concept of being saved. But treehugger HAD used the word saved and how since God is merciful he can save whoever he wants, which is why I used that term. If hell(or the void) is not a punishment then God does not need to be merciful and save people from it. The whole concept of salvation is that there must be something to be saved from.

[zcccrv]

Isn't that exactly the same as living your life the way you want to? What does the Divine add or change?

[OkToBeTakei]

You have found comfort in a make-believe imaginary deity that you came up with, all by yourself, spiking it with heavily recited biblical mambo jambo about goodness. That god of yours is entirely a creation of your own mind and the indoctrination that you might have been through.

You have realized that there must be some sort of a force that is stronger than man, stronger than nature, and that force must be on your side and protect you from (maybe other deities that you have heard of.)

To me, this is the adult version of carrying around a raggy napkin that children cannot sleep without. If you truly had an idea what the mainstream deities and those in cults are all about, you would never ever call your protective spirit God.

AVEnues it is very obvious by your anger and emotional responses that this subject is not something you can debate without using your own experience.

Whilst most on this thread believe vastly different things it is being debated respectfully. Whilst you may not agree with treehugger I don't see that as reason to be quite so offensive. I may not agree with her/his beliefs, but appreciate the chance to see things from an angle new to me.

Maybe take a break from the thread if it is upsetting you.

[treehugger]

Yes, formergothardite, it is a choose what option is best for you. The quote by Sobeknofret pretty much sums it up.

Maybe it is all stupid nonsense - as AVENues suggests. But, I still believe it, and since I am not hurting anyone by believing it, why does it bother you?

What would you like me to do - say all religion is inherently evil and become an atheist? I don't believe all religion is inherently evil - I believe there have been good people in all religions, just as there have been bad people in all religions. I also do not believe that an atheist has never done an evil thing. I do not condone any evil (whether it is committed in the name of religion or otherwise) but to say that all religions and beliefs are evil become some religious people have committed acts of evil is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I have a feeling we will never agree with each other on this issue, so if you have a new question, I will try to answer it - but otherwise I really don't have time to argue in circles all day.

[zcccrv]

What would you like me to do - say all religion is inherently evil and become an atheist?

Without saying that this is what you implied, just putting it out there by the token of simple train of thought, atheists don't think all religion is evil. We only have one trait in common which is that we don't believe in a God. For most it boils down to the lack of evidence. There are many atheists who think that believing in God makes your judgment for other issues a bit blurred- if you accept Him without good evidence then you are bound to accept other things in the same manner. But that is by no means a requirement for being an atheist.

[formergothardite]

Yes, formergothardite, it is a choose what option is best for you. The quote by Sobeknofret pretty much sums it up.

Maybe it is all stupid nonsense - as AVENues suggests. But, I still believe it, and since I am not hurting anyone by believing it, why does it bother you?

What would you like me to do - say all religion is inherently evil and become an atheist? I don't believe all religion is inherently evil - I believe there have been good people in all religions, just as there have been bad people in all religions. I also do not believe that an atheist has never done an evil thing. I do not condone any evil (whether it is committed in the name of religion or otherwise) but to say that all religions and beliefs are evil become some religious people have committed acts of evil is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I have a feeling we will never agree with each other on this issue, so if you have a new question, I will try to answer it - but otherwise I really don't have time to argue in circles all day.

You are free to believe what you want. I don't think you are hurting anyone with your religion, but I'm confused about what your concept of grace/mercy/salvation is. What does salvation through grace mean to you since God isn't actually going to punish people who don't believe and hell is as equally pleasant to the occupants as heaven is to those who go there?

[Sobeknofret]

Without saying that this is what you implied, just putting it out there by the token of simple train of thought, atheists don't think all religion is evil. We only have one trait in common which is that we don't believe in a God. For most it boils down to the lack of evidence. There are many atheists who think that believing in God makes your judgment for other issues a bit blurred- if you accept Him without good evidence then you are bound to accept other things in the same manner. But that is by no means a requirement for being an atheist.

What about the original question that treehugger asked? So, again, what do you want believers to do? Become atheists?

[France Nolan]

I don't think God works on a punishment and reward basis. I reject the idea of hell, and I don't think anyone goes to hell regardless of belief or lack thereof. Now if we think of heaven as being in the presence of God and hell as being cut off from God, then someone can choose either or. If you don't believe in God then I don't think existing without him would be painful or bad. It just is. I dont think there is a punishment for lack of belief.

[zcccrv]

What about the original question that treehugger asked? So, again, what do you want believers to do? Become atheists?

That's a strange question. What difference does it make what I want? I don't honestly know what I want believers to do. Think more for themselves about some of these issues that seem contradictory to non-believers? Sure, I want that. I don't have psychic powers so I can't tell what the world with 20, 30 or 60% atheists would look like or if it would be a better place. I like to discuss matters, that's all. I think that is a good path for making progress, whatever the hell that might actually entail.

[zcccrv]

I don't think God works on a punishment and reward basis. I reject the idea of hell, and I don't think anyone goes to hell regardless of belief or lack thereof. Now if we think of heaven as being in the presence of God and hell as being cut off from God, then someone can choose either or. If you don't believe in God then I don't think existing without him would be painful or bad. It just is. I dont think there is a punishment for lack of belief.

So you think that afterlife is basically like life as we know it? Atheists remain atheists and believers continue living in the presence of God.

[France Nolan]

In a metaphysical sense, yes. We have free will to choose a relationship with God. I don't believe that I will be rewarded for my faith, and I don't think you will be punished for a lack of faith. We made different choices by that doesn't mal yours any less valid.

[France Nolan]

Also, ther are plenty of people of faith who do think for themselves. That's why there are many different belief systems. People question. They break off and away. They form new denominations and religions. They question. They think.

And many of us are in favor of actual science. I honestly don't know anyone of any faith who subscribes to creationism.

[treehugger]

Without saying that this is what you implied, just putting it out there by the token of simple train of thought, atheists don't think all religion is evil. We only have one trait in common which is that we don't believe in a God. For most it boils down to the lack of evidence. There are many atheists who think that believing in God makes your judgment for other issues a bit blurred- if you accept Him without good evidence then you are bound to accept other things in the same manner. But that is by no means a requirement for being an atheist.

Of course. I am sorry, I was not very clear.

[treehugger]

You are free to believe what you want. I don't think you are hurting anyone with your religion, but I'm confused about what your concept of grace/mercy/salvation is. What does salvation through grace mean to you since God isn't actually going to punish people who don't believe and hell is as equally pleasant to the occupants as heaven is to those who go there?

Sorry, formergothardite. The last paragraph was for AVENues, not yourself. My apologies for not making that clear.

I am not going to argue the Bible with you, FG, just because I am pretty sure you know it far better than I do. I didn't become a Christian until I was an adult. Like I said, my faith is very personal, mostly because I became a Christian after a very severe bout of depression. I guess you could say my faith gives me something to live for. When I speak of salvation and grace, it is because I do feel like God saved me from myself (in the most literal sense) and gave me a hope and something to live for. When I imagine a life without God I remember what it was like before I became a Christian - which is why I believe hell (aka, an existence without God) would be horrible. Obviously, of course, it is all very personal - and I realize that others with a different experience would not view an eternity without God as anything bad. I realize this isn't a universal statement, or anything terribly profound - but hopefully it kind of answers your question?

[zcccrv]

In a metaphysical sense, yes. We have free will to choose a relationship with God. I don't believe that I will be rewarded for my faith, and I don't think you will be punished for a lack of faith. We made different choices by that doesn't mal yours any less valid.

Why do you think it's a choice? I don't feel like I made a choice when "that doesn't really make sense to me" started happening. Do many people think that (non)belief is choice driven? I'm used to the religious explanation that you just "have faith" like you would have blond hair or brown eyes.