Poster- Christianity inherently abusive

[OkToBeTakei]

It's nice that you don't judge. I do. When I realize that I do I try to study, use my empathy and understand the person better, which most of the time makes me stop judging. Until I do it again in a different situation/with a different person.

I never said that she should have an inkling as to who the people IN heaven are. What I said was: That does entail that not everyone will get to go to heaven. Or is there a possibility that Hitler will also be there? If you presume that not everyone gets to go then you also should have an inkling as to who these people may be. "these people" meaning the people who DON'T get to go. That is IF she presumes that not everyone gets to go. I'm just curious.

I said I TRY not to judge.

I still think you are missing the point. But hey ho.

[zcccrv]

I said I TRY not to judge.

I still think you are missing the point. But hey ho.

What is the point?

Mine is more or less that I've never met an idea of heaven that didn't differentiate between people. Hoping that your actions will lead you there is kind of a nice way of saying that not everyone gets to go. In which case it seems contradictory to say that no one knows what happens except for God.

[Arete]

I'm asking sincerely, since I am still trying to wrap my brain around non-literal Christians. In light of the statement above, how do you interpret Mark 16:16, Luke 13:3, John 8:24, John 3:16-17, Romans 6:23 and 2Thessalonians 1:8?

Just so you can understand how I go about reading the Bible, I do not hold to Sola Scriptura, do not believe the Bible is a historical account of all mankind, do not believe it should be read literally but as metaphor and parable. I believe its a collection of documents written by many people who were trying to understand and teach the mystery of the divine. With that disclaimer out of the way:

Mark 16:16

According to the Bible I have in the original Greek, Verses 9-20 do not appear in the earliest manuscripts of this Gospel. The NRSV in English also has a notation that these verses were added latter to the Gospel. I have to ask why the need for the addition, and what was the motivation? Verse 16-The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, the one who does not believe will be condemned, does not appear in the other Synoptic Gospels about the post resurrection Jesus. Since they are written latter than Mark, it tells me this verse is an add on. I give more weight to the multiple mentions through all the Gospels of Jesus in his ministry phase addressing questions about what one must do to achieve eternal life. His answers are consistently recorded as "follow the Golden Rule" and "love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength, and your neighbor as yourself."

Luke 13:3

No, I tell you, unless you repent, you will all perish as they did. The word translated as "repent" in Greek is "metanoia". Metanoia literally means change, change yourself. When the Jesus or John the Baptist call people to repent, they are literally saying "Change yourself!" I do not interpret "perish as they did" as literal death. I interpret it as a metaphor to mean that we all have to change to become better people, or we may fall into evil and get cut off from the presence of God.

John 8:24

I told you that you would die in your sins unless you believe that I am he. John is the Gospel that starts mixing the Greek philosophy with the Second Temple Judaism. The writer most likely was the head of a community of Christians who were thrown out of their local synagogue, and he has a BIG axe to grind. It is by far the most anti Semitic Gospel, and parts of it are in the classic ancient polemic style. The interpretation I take is that this Gospel reports Jesus is saying if you do not recognize him as the son of God, you will die and that will be the end. No theosis. I just don't see how that can be literally true. My understanding of God is that he/she/it is way bigger than heads you win, tails you lose.

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world, he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. My interpretation-God loves us so much that he sent his son into the world to point the way, to not despair death as the end. I do not interpret it as the mere belief in Jesus as the son of God is enough to get you theosis. It's a lifelong process and you can't be a lying thief, say you believe in Jesus, and use that as a cosmic get out of jail card.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sin seperates us from God. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus should inspire the Christian to do the Lord's work on earth, to avoid since and be worthy of unity with God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8

in flaming fire, inflicting vengence on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Paul is addressing a persecuted community. In the verses before Paul says that God will repay with affliction those who afflicted this community, and give relief when Jesus is revealed from heaven with "his mighty angels, in a flaming fire......." Paul thought the end was coming just around the corner and he would get to see Jesus do this. He was wrong, and in light of that I am not particularly invested in his description of the Second Coming.

[Arete]

Hoping that your actions will lead you there is kind of a nice way of saying that not everyone gets to go

Defnitely not everyone gets to go. We know that being evil (genocide, rape, murder) is going to get you separated from God. Using and abusing your fellow human being is going to get you separated from God. Temporarily? Permanently? No one can say.

For most Christians who are not genocidal rapists/murders, best to concentrate on not using and abusing your fellow human being. Your fellow Christians should do likewise, and not sit and say, "you are the wrong kind of Christian, and you, you aren't even a Christian, so there is nothing for you but hell, hell, hell, which is hot, hot, hot."

[Sobeknofret]

Thanks AreteJo. Your explanations are very interesting and there's some food for thought in your translations of the original Greek for us. I regret that my Greek is poor and I've never been able to improve it. It's nice to have someone to translate for us!

[treehugger]

But you must have a higher degree of certainty that you yourself, through having a relationship with God, will achieve it. Why would you otherwise even engage? So you may think it is likely for you but there is no way of telling for the others. If I'm understanding correctly, that's kind of a very exclusive, one-person club.

I am not seeing what the big deal is. If you believe in heaven (and possibly hell) then you will probably do what it takes to get there (heaven, not hell ;) ), but if you don't believe in either, then why do you care if other people do? Especially if they are simply concerned with their own salvation and lives and not bothering you with their religion? It can only be an exclusive club if you believe it to be real and you believe there are only a few people who can go there. I am Christian, but I don't think getting into heaven is an exclusive club, since I believe that anyone who believes in Jesus and lives a life of love and service to others goes there. That is something anyone can do if they want - so it isn't exclusive. My beliefs are very personal, and I do not presume to impose them on anyone. I respect that some people think I am believing in a fairytale and that is okay. I also do not know who is saved and who isn't - so I really don't judge people based on that. Jesus taught love and kindness always, and His ethical code is what I try to follow in my life.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thanks AreteJo. Your explanations are very interesting and there's some food for thought in your translations of the original Greek for us. I regret that my Greek is poor and I've never been able to improve it. It's nice to have someone to translate for us!

Agreed! As someone who isn't Christian, I'm enjoying the theological discussion about the differences between different groups within Christianity, particularly as I hadn't known the unique theology of the Orthodox churches.

[AVENues]

I think the only reason she asked is because another poster said that the Bible is built around one core truth.

You forget one thing. One little, teeny tiny thing here.

NO NORTON ANTHOLOGY OF THE ENGLISH LITERATURE IS OUT THERE TO BRAINWASH, MANIPULATE, CONTROL, SHAME, SPREAD HATRED, IMPLANTS FALSE IDEAS INTO PEOPLE'S HEADS, STOP THEM FROM LEARNING ACTUAL SCIENCE (eg. denying the existence of carbon time trials which totally debunks the 5000yo bullshit).

I was typing very slowly, I promise.

And no, you cannot compare any brainwashing, nonsensical religious books to any other literature because people do not build entire religions upon other literature. Especially not for the sake of financial gain, control, oppression of women, condemnation of the homosexuals.

At least what happened to gay people, the Bible should have been marked as a literature with dangerous ideas. Mein Kampf is a book that you don't want to whip out in public.

AND YES, people do interpret the Bible as the words of God, and even if they add their own fucking stupid, torture porn kind of ideas to it (like the molten metal in the ears...) they will whip, squash, threaten, brainwash children into believing their horror shit. Live in fear and indoctrination. Later on, like it was a hamster's wheel... they would shove this holy, torturous crap down other children's throats.

And yes, formergothardite's question was very valid and USEFUL, unlike your little comparison here. Not THAT was challenging, lol... bai... (REALLY.)

[zcccrv]

I am not seeing what the big deal is. If you believe in heaven (and possibly hell) then you will probably do what it takes to get there (heaven, not hell ;) ), but if you don't believe in either, then why do you care if other people do? Especially if they are simply concerned with their own salvation and lives and not bothering you with their religion? It can only be an exclusive club if you believe it to be real and you believe there are only a few people who can go there. I am Christian, but I don't think getting into heaven is an exclusive club, since I believe that anyone who believes in Jesus and lives a life of love and service to others goes there. That is something anyone can do if they want - so it isn't exclusive. My beliefs are very personal, and I do not presume to impose them on anyone. I respect that some people think I am believing in a fairytale and that is okay. I also do not know who is saved and who isn't - so I really don't judge people based on that. Jesus taught love and kindness always, and His ethical code is what I try to follow in my life.

How is it not exclusive if you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven? Everyone can make themselves believe if they want? I strongly disagree. Either you believe or you don't. It's like saying: gays have the same rights as everyone else since they are free to marry a person of the opposite sex just like heterosexual people do.

I don't believe in heaven or hell so it doesn't bother me what happens when we all die. It does bother me what happens now. And I find it interesting how people's minds work.

I understand folks who think they know exactly what principles everyone should live by (like fundies) so if you don't comply they say: well, you're not going to heaven. It's IMO incredibly dumb but at least it tries to apply the same principles to everyone. But people who say: I'm only concerned with myself and my own salvation, seem to think that that statement doesn't say anything about anyone else, when in my view it does. You believe and act in accordance to your belief so that your chance of going to heaven is increased. It seems like you think that your life as you live it today is more likely to deserve eternal reward than for example mine is. That says something about here and now, not about when we die.

And what happens if the murderer/rapist was in fact a deeply troubled and tortured individual? Or if they all are? Do they still not get to go to heaven? (I'm not saying that it's so, I'm just talking theoretically). Is it perhaps possible for your God to be the kind of dude who forgives murderers and rapists?

[France Nolan]

If you're looking at it from a Lutheran perspective, there is nothing a person can do to earn salvation. We don't get extra credit for being "good" people. Actually classic Lutheran theology holds that people are not capable of being "good". Good is reserved for God alone. People are capable of good works but those works are the fruit of their faith, not a way to curry favor with God.

Salvation is not earned, it is a gift from God. A person can choose to accept or reject salvation, however accepting God does not cause salvation. It's there for people to take it or leave it.

[fatcat]

Wow, this thread is really interesting to me, partly also because I am writing my current dissertation on issues having to do with religion. I have realised from the discussion here that I have kind of been describing much of Christianity wrong in my work. I always thought of the Protestant, Calvinist modern American type Christianity as being the most 'traditional' and biblical form of Christianity, but now I see more clearly that it is not in many ways. This is making my head spin now. One thing I always disliked about the fundie/ Baptist beliefs I've been exposed to is that people are not even allowed to feel negative things (anger, lust, etc.), and that feeling them is almost the same as acting on them. Another thing I really dislike is the whole God as father/ husband description. Yuck.

Personally, I don't consider myself a Christian at all, but I'm not sure how I would classify my beliefs. I'm not an atheist either. Maybe I will figure it out for sure someday. Probably not, since I'm the kind of person who always wants to see something from every available angle.

Actually classic Lutheran theology holds that people are not capable of being "good". Good is reserved for God alone

That's what I heard in sermons in Baptist churches as well (went there a few times, never again). It just seems so depressing. I mean, obviously some people's actions are better than others.

[zcccrv]

If you're looking at it from a Lutheran perspective, there is nothing a person can do to earn salvation. We don't get extra credit for being "good" people. Actually classic Lutheran theology holds that people are not capable of being "good". Good is reserved for God alone. People are capable of good works but those works are the fruit of their faith, not a way to curry favor with God.

Salvation is not earned, it is a gift from God. A person can choose to accept or reject salvation, however accepting God does not cause salvation. It's there for people to take it or leave it.

That's really interesting. I should look up more. So we know nothing about him or his actions/choices yet we know that he exists? What makes Lutherans certain that there is in fact a God, when he's so incomprehensible?

[France Nolan]

I will say that my church didn't subscribe to that line of thinking and the pastors didn't preach it. We were given theological texts and ideas and were encouraged to think critically about what we believed. There's a heavy emphasis on Bible study as well as reading Luther's works. For example, over the course of my church education I read the Bible cover to cover, Luther's catechism, The Augsburg Confessions, and The Book of Concord.

That being said, modern Lutheran churches have publicly rejected some of his writings. Luther was virulently anti-Semitic and his writings on the Jews are awful. Throughout history they have been used to justify the persecution of Jews, including the Holocaust. The ELCA (and I'm fairly certain most other churches) have since come out against the writings.

Zccrv: You're confusing belief and knowledge. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I know He exists beyond a shadow of a doubt? No.

[Mrs Ms]

Over the last few years I've started using a very simple question to see if I will (probably) get along with christians (haven't interacted with people of other faiths where their faith was part of our conversation in the last few years)

Do they identify as God FEARING or God LOVING christians?

The "Loving" ones are usually the ones who have a private relationship with their version of God (no witnessing, etc)

Their faith is a positive part of their life

They focus on the positive aspects of the Bible such as helping the less fortunate and not judging others

The "Fearing" ones are usually shouting at the top of their lungs about persecution because somebody wished them a "happy holiday" instead of "merry christmas"

Witness all.the.time

Are sure that their church is the ONLY true church and the only way to heaven

Seem to be quite burdened by their faith

Aaaand are into the child-beating, woman-suppressing, anti-gay, racism, bigotry and/or all the other lovely things we discuss here - "because the Bible says so!"

Obviously this is very simplistic! With a few exceptions it has worked surprisingly well though. Of course this probably only works here in New Zealand where I only hear God "fearing" from the more evangelical crowd and the nuttier fringes of christianity....

[Arete]

But people who say: I'm only concerned with myself and my own salvation, seem to think that that statement doesn't say anything about anyone else, when in my view it does. You believe and act in accordance to your belief so that your chance of going to heaven is increased. It seems like you think that your life as you live it today is more likely to deserve eternal reward than for example mine is. That says something about here and now, not about when we die.And what happens if the murderer/rapist was in fact a deeply troubled and tortured individual? Or if they all are? Do they still not get to go to heaven? (I'm not saying that it's so, I'm just talking theoretically). Is it perhaps possible for your God to be the kind of dude who forgives murderers and rapists?

To the first bolded, why do you think I believe my life is more worthy of heaven than yours because I concern myself only with my own relationship with God? You have it backwards. It is because my life is NOT more worthy than yours that I concern myself only with my own relationship with God. How do I get to have any insight anyone else's worthiness of heaven when I don't live their life and don't have access to their conscience? How can I say that God prefers me as a Christian to an atheist that lives a just and moral life. I act in accordance with my belief on earth to do my part to bring the kingdom of God to the here and now, or at least lay the stones for the foundation of the future. Not to wait for heaven, but to help bring about a more just society. At the very least not to become an impedment to a more just society.

To say I can't know about anyone else's journey with God does not mean I don't know that crimes like rape and murder can cut us off from God.

It is quite possible my God is the kind of dude who forgives murderers and rapists. But in the words of Jesus "You shall not tempt the Lord your God". There have been argements by some Orthodox theologians that in the end even Satan is reconcilled with God. Those are mysteries that as an Orthodox Christian I don't have answers to. No one needs me to wave a Bible in their face and preach hellfire and damnation. But there are people who need me to listen when they are hurt, drive them to rehab when they fall off the wagon again, visit them in the hospital, amuse a kid for a few hours so mommy can screw her head back on, visit them period because they are old and can't get out much anymore. There have been times in my life when someone has needed to pick me up, dust me off, and say "one step at a time, right foot, left foot, that's it!" That brings on the kingdom of heaven, that works to salvation. Not because you acts are somehow earning points in the Cosmic Treasury, but because they are helping out here on earth.

[zcccrv]

I will say that my church didn't subscribe to that line of thinking and the pastors didn't preach it. We were given theological texts and ideas and were encouraged to think critically about what we believed. There's a heavy emphasis on Bible study as well as reading Luther's works. For example, over the course of my church education I read the Bible cover to cover, Luther's catechism, The Augsburg Confessions, and The Book of Concord.

That being said, modern Lutheran churches have publicly rejected some of his writings. Luther was virulently anti-Semitic and his writings on the Jews are awful. Throughout history they have been used to justify the persecution of Jews, including the Holocaust. The ELCA (and I'm fairly certain most other churches) have since come out against the writings.

Zccrv: You're confusing belief and knowledge. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I know He exists beyond a shadow of a doubt? No.

I don't think I am. Knowledge is a subset of belief. You can believe things based on good reasons or bad reasons. I may know something for a fact (or to a high percent of certainty which is a realistic version of a fact most of the time) but I don't have to believe it. Vice versa. You either believe in a God (theist) or you don't (atheist). Whether you think you know (or if it is knowable) is a matter of a/gnosticism. You can be a gnostic atheist, an agnostic atheist, a gnostic theist or a agnostic theist.

(1) To know something you do not need to be certain about it. You simply need to have a firm belief.

(2) To believe something firmly, first you need to believe it. Belief is not replaced by knowledge, rather, knowledge is a subset of belief.

[zcccrv]

To the first bolded, why do you think I believe my life is more worthy of heaven than yours because I concern myself only with my own relationship with God? You have it backwards. It is because my life is NOT more worthy than yours that I concern myself only with my own relationship with God. How do I get to have any insight anyone else's worthiness of heaven when I don't live their life and don't have access to their conscience? How can I say that God prefers me as a Christian to an atheist that lives a just and moral life. I act in accordance with my belief on earth to do my part to bring the kingdom of God to the here and now, or at least lay the stones for the foundation of the future. Not to wait for heaven, but to help bring about a more just society. At the very least not to become an impedment to a more just society.

To say I can't know about anyone else's journey with God does not mean I don't know that crimes like rape and murder can cut us off from God.

It is quite possible my God is the kind of dude who forgives murderers and rapists. But in the words of Jesus "You shall not tempt the Lord your God". There have been argements by some Orthodox theologians that in the end even Satan is reconcilled with God. Those are mysteries that as an Orthodox Christian I don't have answers to. No one needs me to wave a Bible in their face and preach hellfire and damnation. But there are people who need me to listen when they are hurt, drive them to rehab when they fall off the wagon again, visit them in the hospital, amuse a kid for a few hours so mommy can screw her head back on, visit them period because they are old and can't get out much anymore. There have been times in my life when someone has needed to pick me up, dust me off, and say "one step at a time, right foot, left foot, that's it!" That brings on the kingdom of heaven, that works to salvation. Not because you acts are somehow earning points in the Cosmic Treasury, but because they are helping out here on earth.

Or maybe your life is more worthy? Who's to know? I sure don't. How do you not see that by concerning yourself with pleasing God through acts that are deemed "good" you automatically enter the comparison game because it's quite obvious that various people do "good" in various amounts. Some perhaps very little. It seems they deserve a reward a bit less than you do. At least to me.

To the last paragraph, perhaps you would do all those good deeds even if you didn't believe? Because there are people who do.

[LeatherCouch]

Just so you can understand how I go about reading the Bible, I do not hold to Sola Scriptura, do not believe the Bible is a historical account of all mankind, do not believe it should be read literally but as metaphor and parable. I believe its a collection of documents written by many people who were trying to understand and teach the mystery of the divine. With that disclaimer out of the way:

Mark 16:16

According to the Bible I have in the original Greek, Verses 9-20 do not appear in the earliest manuscripts of this Gospel. The NRSV in English also has a notation that these verses were added latter to the Gospel. I have to ask why the need for the addition, and what was the motivation? Verse 16-The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, the one who does not believe will be condemned, does not appear in the other Synoptic Gospels about the post resurrection Jesus. Since they are written latter than Mark, it tells me this verse is an add on. I give more weight to the multiple mentions through all the Gospels of Jesus in his ministry phase addressing questions about what one must do to achieve eternal life. His answers are consistently recorded as "follow the Golden Rule" and "love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength, and your neighbor as yourself."

Luke 13:3

No, I tell you, unless you repent, you will all perish as they did. The word translated as "repent" in Greek is "metanoia". Metanoia literally means change, change yourself. When the Jesus or John the Baptist call people to repent, they are literally saying "Change yourself!" I do not interpret "perish as they did" as literal death. I interpret it as a metaphor to mean that we all have to change to become better people, or we may fall into evil and get cut off from the presence of God.

John 8:24

I told you that you would die in your sins unless you believe that I am he. John is the Gospel that starts mixing the Greek philosophy with the Second Temple Judaism. The writer most likely was the head of a community of Christians who were thrown out of their local synagogue, and he has a BIG axe to grind. It is by far the most anti Semitic Gospel, and parts of it are in the classic ancient polemic style. The interpretation I take is that this Gospel reports Jesus is saying if you do not recognize him as the son of God, you will die and that will be the end. No theosis. I just don't see how that can be literally true. My understanding of God is that he/she/it is way bigger than heads you win, tails you lose.

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world, he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. My interpretation-God loves us so much that he sent his son into the world to point the way, to not despair death as the end. I do not interpret it as the mere belief in Jesus as the son of God is enough to get you theosis. It's a lifelong process and you can't be a lying thief, say you believe in Jesus, and use that as a cosmic get out of jail card.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sin seperates us from God. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus should inspire the Christian to do the Lord's work on earth, to avoid since and be worthy of unity with God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8

in flaming fire, inflicting vengence on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Paul is addressing a persecuted community. In the verses before Paul says that God will repay with affliction those who afflicted this community, and give relief when Jesus is revealed from heaven with "his mighty angels, in a flaming fire......." Paul thought the end was coming just around the corner and he would get to see Jesus do this. He was wrong, and in light of that I am not particularly invested in his description of the Second Coming.

Thank you! I'm not able to sit and ponder this like I'd like to right now, but I will come back to it. Again, thanks for answering my question!

[Mama Mia]

Or maybe your life is more worthy? Who's to know? I sure don't. How do you not see that by concerning yourself with pleasing God through acts that are deemed "good" you automatically enter the comparison game because it's quite obvious that various people do "good" in various amounts. Some perhaps very little. It seems they deserve a reward a bit less than you do. At least to me.

To the last paragraph, perhaps you would do all those good deeds even if you didn't believe? Because there are people who do.

Why do you insist on telling people that they don't know their own beliefs ? You have been told, repeatedly, by several posters, that it isn't some competition for "goodness" - but you keep saying they must have their own beliefs wrong.

Of course people might do good deeds regardless of if they believe or not. People have told you that too.

You keep saying Christians only do good things in order to curry favor with God. I'll give you the example of someone finding a lost kitten on the street and trying to find the owner. You seem to think that believers will only return the kitten if their is a reward, not just return the kitten because it's the right thing to do.

[Sobeknofret]

NO NORTON ANTHOLOGY OF THE ENGLISH LITERATURE IS OUT THERE TO BRAINWASH, MANIPULATE, CONTROL, SHAME, SPREAD HATRED, IMPLANTS FALSE IDEAS INTO PEOPLE'S HEADS, STOP THEM FROM LEARNING ACTUAL SCIENCE (eg. denying the existence of carbon time trials which totally debunks the 5000yo bullshit).

It is if you take every single story in the Norton as absolutely literal. Murder, rape, hatred, death, homophobia, racism, sexism-- it's all in there. Beowulf? Monster story along the lines of Jonah. Dante's Inferno? Revelations all the way, baby. "Hills Like White Elephants"? Abortion tale. "A Rose for Emily"? ::shudder:: "Sonny's Blues"? Racism. But no one in their right mind believes every single story in the Norton is literally true.

And this is what many of us are trying to say; you have to be discerning when reading the Bible, a literal reading makes no sense at all. The vast majority of Christians, including those of us on this board, Do.Not. believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. A small minority of Christians do believe it's absolutely literal, but they're a small, albeit vocal, minority. You're insisting that there's only one way to read the Bible and that's absolutely literally. Reminds me of Phillips, et. al in a lot of ways. Frankly, you're being as obnoxious as they are:

And yes, formergothardite's question was very valid and USEFUL, unlike your little comparison here. Not THAT was challenging, lol... bai... (REALLY.)

Uncalled for and out of line. An emotional response to someone who was trying to add another facet to an interesting debate.

I get that you've been damaged by fundamentalist Christianity. I get it, and I'm so very, very sorry that someone hurt you in the name of Christ. I grieve deeply for everyone who is hurt by Christianity, including the fundies that we snark on here, and I'm sorry these people were given the power to do so.

ETA: I highly recommend Anglican Bishop John Shelby Spong's book Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism to anyone interested in a refutation of fundamentalist rhetoric. I don't agree with everything he's written, but it's an interesting read.

[treehugger]

How is it not exclusive if you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven? Everyone can make themselves believe if they want? I strongly disagree. Either you believe or you don't. It's like saying: gays have the same rights as everyone else since they are free to marry a person of the opposite sex just like heterosexual people do.

I don't believe in heaven or hell so it doesn't bother me what happens when we all die. It does bother me what happens now. And I find it interesting how people's minds work.

I understand folks who think they know exactly what principles everyone should live by (like fundies) so if you don't comply they say: well, you're not going to heaven. It's IMO incredibly dumb but at least it tries to apply the same principles to everyone. But people who say: I'm only concerned with myself and my own salvation, seem to think that that statement doesn't say anything about anyone else, when in my view it does. You believe and act in accordance to your belief so that your chance of going to heaven is increased. It seems like you think that your life as you live it today is more likely to deserve eternal reward than for example mine is. That says something about here and now, not about when we die.

And what happens if the murderer/rapist was in fact a deeply troubled and tortured individual? Or if they all are? Do they still not get to go to heaven? (I'm not saying that it's so, I'm just talking theoretically). Is it perhaps possible for your God to be the kind of dude who forgives murderers and rapists?

I wasn't very clear in the above paragraph. I'm sorry about that. Let me try again. I believe in salvation by grace alone - not works. Living a life of love and service to others is not what is going to get me into heaven. I try to live a life of love and service because it is what I believe is right. I realize that there are many people who are not Christians who do many, many good things - probably many with a greater impact on the world than I will ever make. I simply cannot look at someone and say, "oh, they don't do as many good things as I do so they aren't going to heaven". I don't know what people do and don't do - and I don't know what their belief system is. I can't judge someone based on their works or what they do and don't do, wear or don't wear, etc.

I believe that God's grace alone is what saves me. His grace is open to absolutely anyone (hence why I don't see it as exclusive - although I can see where you could view it as such). I believe people can choose to accept his grace or reject it - the choice is up to them. I firmly believe God loves everyone, and that rapists and murderers can go to heaven. I believe God is bigger than the little boxes people put him in - and I will probably be hugely surprised by who is and isn't in heaven. I think God can forgive anyone and that he is much more merciful than I can ever guess - so yes, there will probably be children, people who have never heard about God, and tortured individuals in heaven. But do I really know? Not really. So I can't act towards someone in judgement because of what they believe or don't believe. All I can do is live the golden rule of "loving my neighbour as myself". And, while the Bible has many debatable and contradictory passages that are open to a variety of interpretations, the "believe and you will be saved" verses are pretty consistent.

Of course, there are many different religions in the world, and all sorts of versions of heaven and how to get there. I realize that there are a lot people who take the Bible way too literally and to the extremes (hence why we snark on them here and why their extreme beliefs are dangerous), but you have extremists with most religions - and that does not necessarily mean the whole thing is horrible.

*Edited for riffles...

[formergothardite]

Treehugger, do you believe that people who reject God(like many of us here) go to hell?

[zcccrv]

How in the world am I compromising someone's belief here? I have never said nor thought that Christians only do good things in order to curry favor with God. I think they do good for a multitude of reasons, like non Christian people also do. Some of those reasons perhaps do have something to do with pleasing Lord. Or are at least interpreted as such by the Christians themselves.

[debrand]

My fellow bible class brainwashing recoveree. Thank you. Okay it wasn't poured in the ears. Chugging down molten metal is much better...

I think that one sick lesson I learned from the story of Moses was to be thankful no matter how crappy your life. The people of Israel were hungry so of course, they grumbled. God sent them manna. Mann is nice but who wants to live off manna all day. Apparently, complaining at all really pisses god off.

Numbers 11:5 The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, “If only we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost—also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. 6 But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!â€

Who wants to eat the same food every single day? We are talking about an all powerful god. He could have found the people a few melons or leeks, I'm sure.

God, this supposedly loving god, gets angry that anyone asks for more than he wants to give.

8 “Tell the people: ‘Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow, when you will eat meat. The Lord heard you when you wailed, “If only we had meat to eat! We were better off in Egypt!†Now the Lord will give you meat, and you will eat it. 19 You will not eat it for just one day, or two days, or five, ten or twenty days, 20 but for a whole month—until it comes out of your nostrils and you loathe it—because you have rejected the Lord, who is among you, and have wailed before him, saying, “Why did we ever leave Egypt?â€â€™â€

Like a very immature child, god throws a tantrum. How dare Israelites not be a hundred percent grateful for what he allows them to have. Didn't he leave them in slavery for four hundred years and let them wander in the desert for forty years a distance of about three hundred miles? And they dared want some variety in their diet?

I learned this story as an example as to why I should never, dare ask god for more than he gave me.

Biblical god is a giant, spoiled, all powerful child. No wonder people who believe in a literal, biblical god often seem cruel to their kids

[formergothardite]

I think that one sick lesson I learned from the story of Moses was to be thankful no matter how crappy your life. The people of Israel were hungry so of course, they grumbled. God sent them manna. Mann is nice but who wants to live off manna all day. Apparently, complaining at all really pisses god off.

Numbers 11:5 The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, “If only we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost—also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. 6 But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!â€

Who wants to eat the same food every single day? We are talking about an all powerful god. He could have found the people a few melons or leeks, I'm sure.

God, this supposedly loving god, gets angry that anyone asks for more than he wants to give.

8 “Tell the people: ‘Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow, when you will eat meat. The Lord heard you when you wailed, “If only we had meat to eat! We were better off in Egypt!†Now the Lord will give you meat, and you will eat it. 19 You will not eat it for just one day, or two days, or five, ten or twenty days, 20 but for a whole month—until it comes out of your nostrils and you loathe it—because you have rejected the Lord, who is among you, and have wailed before him, saying, “Why did we ever leave Egypt?â€â€™â€

Like a very immature child, god throws a tantrum. How dare Israelites not be a hundred percent grateful for what he allows them to have. Didn't he leave them in slavery for four hundred years and let them wander in the desert for forty years a distance of about three hundred miles? And they dared want some variety in their diet?

I learned this story as an example as to why I should never, dare ask god for more than he gave me.

Biblical god is a giant, spoiled, all powerful child. No wonder people who believe in a literal, biblical god often seem cruel to their kids

He reminds me of Junie B. Jones. Anyone who has read those book knows Junie would have smote people who didn't adore her at all time if she could have. :lol: