Close Encounters of the Fundie Kind

[MamaJunebug]

Yesterday, I drove past 2 groups of moms and kids waiting for school bus(ses) .... the groups were standing on opposite corners of a residential street at its intersection with a four-lane thoroughfare.

One group was garden-variety blue jeans, slacks, etc. The other was all decked out in hijabs and abayas.

Hours later, I noticed a minivan parked at the entrance to yet another residential street, at an odd angle to the four-lane (different four-lane from above). A woman seemed to be loading some kind of sign - maybe a realtor's shingle - into the back of the van. Her black hijab was tucked into the collar of her short red coat, and her floor-length skirt was very full - I mean, you could've fitted a skirt hoop underneath it.

I wondered why she'd want to fuss with all that excess fabric whilst driving, packing/unpacking.

Couldn't help but wonder what they believe about things like non-believers and the afterlife, and separation of state and church here, in the States. I think I better start paying more attention to traffic and less to folks on the side of the roads!!! :mouse-shock: Distracted driver /=/ good driver.

[RachelB]

I see Mennonites every family reunion, but I don't consider them to be fundies. No one I'm related to dresses cray-cray, the just dress simply and wear tiny caps. And cook well. I've had dealings with Amish most of my life, and they don't strike me as fundies maybe because they don't have that element of crazy I associate with fundies, they just want to worship how they want to worship.

Yup. I have some relatives by marriage who are Mennonites. I do not like them, but that has nothing to do with their religious practices: it's because when my cousin was suffering PPD and they lived much closer to her than any other family members, they threatened to call CPS instead of saying, "Hey, we love you and we know you're hurting. Is there anything we can do to make your life easier at the moment?" Insensitive, jerky people come in all religious and non-religious flavors.

[mypsychoticself]

Today I was introduced to a woman who "had a calling" to go on a mission trip to China. I also met a guy who went to Liberty University.

Someone my dad knows is attending Liberty University online, and she had to interview him for one of her classes. Apparently she was pretty shocked at how different his philosophy is from what she's used to. :lol:

[neuroticcat]

So I stopped by the Christian Heritage Conference today. Here are my general thoughts and then I'll post my summary of the saddest-panel-ever with four SAHDs. I took some photos but didn't want to be too creeper about it, so they're mostly of the hallways in between sessions.

General first impressions:

--There were a lot less people there this year than last year. Way less cars/RVs in the parking lot and I peeked in on the end of one general session and it was pretty sparse. There were also less vendors – last year there was a whole roomful and then others spilling out around the second floor – this year there was only the roomful. We can hope this is because of scandal and people rethinking their connection, but who knows? This is from the back of the main auditorium

--Fundies I spoke with:

--rep for Oakbrook Law School – it is not accredited and is mostly online. The young man I spoke with has finished and took and passed the bar in California and now in Washington. Although not every state allows them to take the bar.

--rep for the Homeschool Defense people. Pretty creepy because they were selling: your children are in danger because CPS might come take them away because of spanking or vaccinations (which, of course, led hypochondriac me to wonder how many unvaccinated children were running around and if I was now exposed to measles and whooping cough). Anyway, a bit of the “protect your God-given right to spank your kids†vibe and fear-mongering. I asked whether CPS was ever called for religious reasons, and he said he didn’t know of any instances of people who hate Christians calling CPS.

--One young woman at the welcome table was sitting on her own so I asked her what her experience with homeschooling had been. She was very sweet and basically said it was the greatest gift her parents could have given her. She is a SAHD but it has given her a lot of ministry opportunities, so she is happy about that. It does sound like she has had quite a bit of interaction with the outside community with her music, though, so perhaps fundie-lite.

--I thought it was interesting to watch the teenagers. There was almost no cross-gender interaction unless family members were present. The young men walked around in packs, but really no checking the girls out or anything. Most of the young women stayed with their families, although there were a few packs of girls as the day went on. Lots of teenaged siblings hanging out together. Quite odd.

--So many “security†people. Read, young men with ear pieces and navy blazers doing Important Things. Mr. Ncat and I had a lot of fun watching them as they took their job – whatever it was – very seriously. No ear pieces for the young women. They were all stationed at the welcome or information table – minimal interaction between them.

--Lots of pregnant women and megafamilies. A handful of non-white faces – most were adopted/fostered children, though there were a few non-white families.

--No recognizable fundie sightings. I did see the younger Craig family (Neil Craig was a speaker), and they seemed pretty polished and important, though I can’t find much online. And I heard one woman say to her daughters, “I need to go meet Mrs. Bradrick.†So I followed her down the hall – yes, I am officially a creep – and she made her way to a partitioned off section. I peeked in but I could only see the back of an older woman’s head, so not the younger Bradricks. No sight of anything Vision Forum anywhere.

On the whole, it was fascinating to people-watch and speculate what drew these people to the movement. At one point, I was outside at lunchtime and it looked so wholesome – brothers and sisters playing nicely together, large families, lots of smiling faces – that I had to remind myself of the sinister controlling underbelly. More on that to come where I summarize the depressing workshop we attended.

I took a few photos, but I need to figure out how to resize them to add.

[neuroticcat]

This is me in my quasi-fundie-approved uniform. I did notice that when I was talking to law-school-grad he was either checking out my name-tag a lot or I chose the wrong shirt. Because where he looks is my responsibility. :penguin-no:

So this from the back row of the main session. You can see that there are a lot of empty seats - and that's just on the first level.

A general picture of the hallway - I just took some quick shots because I didn't want to be too creeper...maybe I've already crossed that line?

[Mary C Doates]

neuroticcat, thank you for your sacrifice on behalf of FJ. I would have elbowed my way past everyone for a possible Sippy Cup sighting, so you showed admirable self-restraint. Maybe those "security" people were Bradrick! graduates--big on self-importance, short on actually doing anything.

Why don't these fundies ever come to the evil Northeast? I miss all the fun :cry: :cry: :cry:

[OkToBeTakei]

If you see Kelly 2 chicken breasts, tell her a concerned European counter-culture sceptic is willing to send her kids food. Tell her that is really the only stand out feature of her 'ministry.'

[thoughtful]

Thanks for the review, neuroticcat! Glad to hear it is dinkier than last year -- hope that's a trend!

I love the picture of you -- posing in front of the "Read Rushdoony" banner was just perfect! :lol:

[neuroticcat]

And I went to a workshop where I took copious notes for a book project I'm working on. Below is the description and my detailed notes. Prepare yourself for a depressing read. I will keep my commentary in parentheses.

"Young Ladies: Pursuing Life's Opportunities - Panel Discussion - What's an unmarried young lady to do? Come and hear the various ways young ladies are currently ministering to their families, reaching out to the needs of others, and pursuing personal development, as panelists answer questions posed by moderator, Dr Tom Lamar. In addition, time will be given to questions from the audience. This session is presented to encourage young ladies to maximize their time at home."

(I would like to re-title this panel: How to Train Your Daughter to Become a Codependent Victim. The workshop was packed -standing room only with mostly moms and young women and girls. A few young men "security forces" near the back. The beautiful young ladies got the questions ahead of time.)

There were four young women panelists, whom the moderator called "beautiful young ladies" at least three times in the introduction. He said we were there to hear how these beautiful ladies maximize their time by ministering to their family, reaching out to others, and pursuing personal development.

Meet the girls: Brigitta, age 21 - 2nd oldest of seven children; Anna, age 25, 5th of 8; Leanne, age 25, oldest of 2; Rebekah, age 21, oldest of 3. Brigitta was recently married.

(Moderator consistently messed up Briggitta's name and made jokes about it throughout. Made my head explode because 1. it is not a hard name 2. it felt disrespectful to make a joke out of it).

Q: The idea of staying at home is different and controversial. Why do you do it?

Anna: Many young ladies know it's the right thing to do and see other godly young ladies doing it. Growing up she was marinated in the Scriptures - so blessed and thankful for that - she has a sense that it's a part of what she ought to do. But she doesn't choose it because it's the right thing, but because IT'S HER NATURE. God created the family unit - woman to help a man - and we need to understand who we are as woman. She doesn't stay-at-home because it's the right thing, but because it is her nature.

Brigitta - It is the way she can serve God most fully. There are gender roles int eh family - fathers have headship. Later, it will be the husband, but your father is your headship and you are under him. Your mother is also your authority and coheadship. Mothers are not in the same role as fathers but are still in authority. Staying at home is the best way to serve Christ. If you focus on your fathers and you family for their sakes, you can lose your focus on God. You will be discontent at home if you do it for people and not for God.

Rebekah - Home is the SAFEST place for an unmarried girl. Her role is to be protected by a man and be helped by him. Staying at home is not like college or an apartment complex (yes, those were her examples) where there is no protection. Also, she cultivates deep relationships with family members. She learns to relate to guys in family by her brothers and fathers.

Leanne - She is not just there to help the family but also to learn from them, to grow and be refined by struggles at home. You WILL be around people 24/7 for the rest of your life. How does God want you to act? You are there to help with the chores but also to encourage others. When they come home tired from running errands or a bad day you can make a joke, make a meal or clean up the house for them.

Q: Did this idea to be a SAHD evolve over time or did you always know you wanted to be one?

Brigitta - It evolved. She was "strong-willed" and had a desire to serve the Lord more than anything, but thought she had to do something that everyone else would thing was huge. She wanted to go to university and have a career. Then she realized she was doing the socially acceptable thing but now had lost opportunities to minister. She regrets losing that time with her family. Being a SAHD lets her have less constraints on her time and the ability to serve is greater. Going out of the home was not serving God, and her parents made it easy for her to transition to SAHD.

Rebekah - ever since she was little Mother always told her God's plan for a lady (and yes she referred to Mother w/out definite article) was to stay at home and have children. Mother was the best example of this - she is so blessed that Mother was always there and ready to help. She made staying at home look fun. Also you can pass your family's vision on to the next generation.

Q: What influences or resources have been useful to you in maximizing your time?

Leanne: PARENTS and THE BIBLE (this was a recurring theme). If you think you've studied the Bible, study it more. She also read Elizabeth Elliott's Passion in Purity and Passionate Housewives Desperate for God. Even though she is not a housewife the principles were applicable to her bad attitude problems and enabled her to work through her struggles with God's help.

Anna:SCRIPTURE - all other helps are written by someone fallible, but Scripture is infallible. Live and breathe the Scriptures - that is the only thing to keep you on the right track. Nobody arrives -w e all walk with the Lord in faith and learn how to use our single years for God's glory one faith step at a time.

Q: What are some ways you are currently ministering or have reached out to the needs of others and pursued personal development?

Leanne: She is at home with a small family. Laundry is her responsibility, and she keeps up with regular chores so Mom can do things like pay the bills and other more technical things. ( :wtf: ) She works in the vegetable garden because she likes being outside - sells the extrra at farmstand. She encourages Mom and Dad.

Rebekah: My mother says she worked herself into a managerial position. She runs a well-maintained household. In the summer she and her sister would trade of weeks to plan and cook meals. She does the laundry and tidies the house in case someone stops by.

Brigitta - Laundry and cleaning, but more importantly, you are surrounded by people - siblings, going shopping, ministry opportunities through church - all those people you are surrounded by are IN NEED of something. When your eyes are on Christ, God will give you opportunities to serve. She also babysits for couples who can't hire sitters, helps with grocery bags, nursing homes and hospitals to minister.

Anna - Her highest priority is serving the Lord and God will bring her opportunities. Trust in the Lord and live in complete contentment to what God has called you to. God has given you gifts. Ask your parents for advice in what your gifts are. She graduated high school at 19 and took over the kitchen - all meals and all dishes for eight people 3X a day - she loves it - she loves hospitality. HEr dad is in pastoral ministry so their house is a revolving door. She also has trained as a doula - so that she can not be afraid of childbirth. She relishes the idea of accepting as many of God's blessings as she possibly can.

(Also, they had index cards for the audience to ask questions, and it so happened that the helpers sorting them were near them. I heard them say: no marriage questions, which was too bad because I wanted to ask what would happen if they never married? But they were weeding through the questions anyway).

Okay, part two in a few minutes.

[Palimpsest]

Brilliant reporting so far, Neuroticcat! Thanks for taking one for the team!

[neuroticcat]

Part 2 of SAHD panel

Q: STRUGGLES, have you had any? Lots of laughter. How do you deal with negativity?

Anna - Her #1 biggest challenge is when other Christians look down on what she's chosen to do with her life - the world's opinions don't bother her, but other believers are a challenge. God has developed boldness in her - you have to know why you're doing what you're doing - God has designed her to be a SAHD, and she takes hold of it, come what may.

Brigitta - Yes to everything Anna said. It is harder to hear from Christians. She expects criticism from unbelievers. Her struggles are with self - she needs to learn dependence of God and members of her family rather than independence of self. Instead of having the mindset of: I will plan for my life, she is putting herself in a dependent position. All outer feeling of control over her life is an illusion anyway. Her advice is to remember that she's in a household with others. She has to be more flexible and help others. She has to make time for family and her church family and to help others.

Leanne - It is hard when other family members are not on board. Extended family don't understand; holidays are hard. She is tempted to keep defending, but she doesn't want to be snarky or proud or scornful of their worldview. So she struggles to cheerfully and gently explain that she's prayed and talked to her parents and being a SAHD is what she wants to do.

Q: Imagine you are talking to a 14-17 year old young lady who is conflicted about what to do. Advise her.

Leanne - She reads the Scripture describing a daughter in a household - Psalm 144:12 - our daughters are like pillars carved to adorn a palace. You are there to be a support but a beautiful one. Make yourself nice and cheerful and happy. (I kid you not those words came out of her mouth). You might be in a pit of despair because you are 25 or 35 and still there, but God has put you there. Put on a happy face and go out and encourage someone and the encouragement will come back to you.

Rebekah - God has you here for a reason. He is faithful and true to keep his promises. Trust him and he will come through for you. Trust Jesus and your parents - they are your biggest fans and support and they have been through this - and your Bible.

Brigitta - (This is when the interviewer was all: I'm not even going to try your name - haha :roll: ) Decide God's calling on your lfe and then examine your struggles. Why do you want other options? What is it about this? In the multitude of counselors there is wisdom. Talk with your parents and spiritual mentors and read the Bible. IF the reason you don't want to be a SAHD is selfish, like, why do I have to always clean the living room? - you should try and sort out your priorities so you can decide based on Christ and not on your self.

Anna - 1 Corinthians 7:34 - An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world--how she can please her husband. - Understand who you are and your nature as a woman - have a soft and pliable heart.

Now Questions from the audience

Q for Rebekah - tell us about your position as Christian Heritage publicity coordinator. She told her mother she'd never need a job talking on the phone or writing sentences, but then she got asked to do this job...and she has to talk on the phone and write things. (!!!) She had 9000 brochures to pass out for the conference and only has 93 left. And she made 1200 cold calls. God gave her the strength to do it.

Q for Anna - Have you taken classes to pursue eduction? She is taking classes at Koinonia Institute, an online Bible college and seminary. It is great because she can share what she is learning at breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Q: Is anyone else doing college? Because as a SAHD your education doesn't have to end.

*crickets* Nope.

Brigitta says she did some other courses around her high school graduation, but she is married now.

Some cross talk about how education doesn't have to end and they don't just sit at home on the couch eating twinkies. "No, bonbons," one of them says. Laughter.

Q: A girl in the audience lives at home in a different country and doesn't have a driver's license. How can she not be discontent?

Leanne - Realistically, discontentment comes with the neighborhood. When you are most discontent is when you should sit down and study the Word. This will also carry you through when you're married (lots of WHEN you are married comments).

Q: What keeps you going when you think, "What's the point?"

Rebekah - God has me here for a reason. You are in the position you are in because God believes you will be sanctified most and he will be most glorified where you are out.

Q: What if your parents don't think you should be a SAHD?

Various young ladies answer - Honor your Father and your Mother and it will go well with you. The same principles apply as those for a woman with an unbelieving husband. God will honor you for honoring your parents. It might not be the ideal thing for you according to the Scriptures if you can't be a SAHD, but your father is your head, and he will answer to God for you. God will not zap you for not staying at home if your parents don't want you to. Make a plea to your parents from the Scriptures and pray, pray, pray that God will open their hearts.

Q: For Brigitta - Why do you love your family so much?

Brigitta - awkward pause. There are so many things. It is hard to answer WHY. Because they are my family. Because fo the relationship we have and growing together. Because Christ teaches us to love them.

End of panel. Apparently, there is also one for the young men, and I wonder what sort of things they are discussing. I did hear some girls later on wondering why there were boys in the panel - they speculated that they thought it was to know what their future wives were up to, but they thought it was awkward.

[neuroticcat]

Honestly, I felt like crying at the end of the panel. I think the conference might be the high point for many of these families. So here were these women getting their moment in the spotlight - being held up as the model for fundie girls everywhere. And they want so earnestly to do God's will and please their parents and do the right thing. And it just felt like such a waste. They will go back to their 364 other days of mindless drudgery and meeting the needs of others. Nowhere in there did they say what they enjoy (the closest thing was the vegetable gardening woman who likes to be outside), what makes them unique, what they have to offer. It all is about meeting the needs of those around them, denying their selfish desires, and finding contentment.

I wanted to know what the hell their parents were doing. Really? Does Mother need all the chores done so she can pay bills? Is there SO much laundry for a family of four with grown children? And it makes me boiling mad that it's all done in the name of God. God doesn't want you to X. God wants you to Y. :angry-banghead: Also the continual reference to Scripture telling them to do this.

I feel so sad for them and all the younger girls in that room. In the very last row (we were standing in the back) was a mom with three very young girls and a new baby. They were remarkably quiet for the whole session and near the end one of the daughters - maybe about four years old - stood on her chair. And the mom got down right in eye level and said. "You may not do that. On the way in a I told you to stay seated and YOU ARE DISOBEYING ME." I mean, there is zero personal ownership even over the idea that she could stand up if she felt she had been sitting for too long.

I mean, I think we all come from dysfunctional families - there were certainly some triggers for me, because although my family wasn't fundie, I did have a controlling narcissistic mother, but all I could think was that they have completely stripped away any sense of self from these girls...and they have told themselves that is a Good Thing. And the daughters are now taking up the torch and denying and repressing any individuality and telling themselves that's what God Wants.

it gave me a whole new perspective on Doug Phillips and Gothard's sex abuse. It's not just that these women have been programmed to think of themselves as less than. They have been systematically taught to repress their needs, ignore their feelings,and meet the needs of EVERYONE else around them. And to do it while looking beautiful with a smile on their faces.

Well done fundie parents. You have groomed your daughters to be victims. :clap:

[Palimpsest]

Honestly, I felt like crying at the end of the panel. I think the conference might be the high point for many of these families. So here were these women getting their moment in the spotlight - being held up as the model for fundie girls everywhere. And they want so earnestly to do God's will and please their parents and do the right thing. And it just felt like such a waste. They will go back to their 364 other days of mindless drudgery and meeting the needs of others. Nowhere in there did they say what they enjoy (the closest thing was the vegetable gardening woman who likes to be outside), what makes them unique, what they have to offer. It all is about meeting the needs of those around them, denying their selfish desires, and finding contentment.

I wanted to know what the hell their parents were doing. Really? Does Mother need all the chores done so she can pay bills? Is there SO much laundry for a family of four with grown children? And it makes me boiling mad that it's all done in the name of God. God doesn't want you to X. God wants you to Y. :angry-banghead: Also the continual reference to Scripture telling them to do this.

I feel so sad for them and all the younger girls in that room. In the very last row (we were standing in the back) was a mom with three very young girls and a new baby. They were remarkably quiet for the whole session and near the end one of the daughters - maybe about four years old - stood on her chair. And the mom got down right in eye level and said. "You may not do that. On the way in a I told you to stay seated and YOU ARE DISOBEYING ME." I mean, there is zero personal ownership even over the idea that she could stand up if she felt she had been sitting for too long.

I mean, I think we all come from dysfunctional families - there were certainly some triggers for me, because although my family wasn't fundie, I did have a controlling narcissistic mother, but all I could think was that they have completely stripped away any sense of self from these girls...and they have told themselves that is a Good Thing. And the daughters are now taking up the torch and denying and repressing any individuality and telling themselves that's what God Wants.

it gave me a whole new perspective on Doug Phillips and Gothard's sex abuse. It's not just that these women have been programmed to think of themselves as less than. They have been systematically taught to repress their needs, ignore their feelings,and meet the needs of EVERYONE else around them. And to do it while looking beautiful with a smile on their faces.

Well done fundie parents. You have groomed your daughters to be victims. :clap:

To the bolded: This! A thousand times THIS!

It breaks your heart, doesnt it?

Thanks again for the excellent reporting. I wish some of the details surprised me. :cry:

[Tesseract]

Thank you so much for the report. All of those girls/women... Such a shame, really.

[OkToBeTakei]

Well done you. No idea why you put yourself through that.

Worst thing?

EVERYTHING they described? I did as a teen whilst still going to Uni and having a life. I lived with my family. I did endless chores. I gardened even. I actually still do. They just don't understand the difference between negativity surrounding the phrase 'You can have it all.' With actually just having a fulfilling life without being labelled as a 'feminist' (I use this loosely as it really does seem such a different and misused label recently in the US compared to where I am from. )

It sounds very depressing. What they describe sounds just like what we all probably felt to some varying degree (I'm old-ish) WILL I ever meet Mr right? Will I ever get it right? WILL I ever be blissfully happy like XYZ? All to some extent impossible goals. Teenage angst without God and bible, sounds very similar.

The big difference? The parents.

[lilith]

Thank you so much Neuroticcat.

It's interesting that they held this on the same weekend as the ATI Big Sandy conference. You would think there would be a lot of ATI families who would have attended if it was on a different weekend.

[Evil Feminist]

Honestly, I felt like crying at the end of the panel. I think the conference might be the high point for many of these families. So here were these women getting their moment in the spotlight - being held up as the model for fundie girls everywhere. And they want so earnestly to do God's will and please their parents and do the right thing. And it just felt like such a waste. They will go back to their 364 other days of mindless drudgery and meeting the needs of others. Nowhere in there did they say what they enjoy (the closest thing was the vegetable gardening woman who likes to be outside), what makes them unique, what they have to offer. It all is about meeting the needs of those around them, denying their selfish desires, and finding contentment.

it gave me a whole new perspective on Doug Phillips and Gothard's sex abuse. It's not just that these women have been programmed to think of themselves as less than. They have been systematically taught to repress their needs, ignore their feelings,and meet the needs of EVERYONE else around them. And to do it while looking beautiful with a smile on their faces.

Well done fundie parents. You have groomed your daughters to be victims. :clap:

:wtf: I know someone who is volunteering there. She SO does not need to here shit like this.

I talked to a mom last year at a fundie homeschool conference I made mistake of going to. ( the botkinettes and doug the tool were there) She is a pharmacist, but her husband wants her to stay at home. Because as a man, its his role to be the bread winner even though she would earn significantly more. He works a blue collar job, because he doesn't have a college education, and he doesn't see the value in one. The cognitive dissonance this woman was experiencing at this convention was heartbreaking. She was hearing all the 'College is evil and will lead your kids astray" crap, but really wanted both her son and daughter to get a good college education. :angry-banghead:

Thanks Neuroticcat for braving the fundies and frump to give an inside report.

Seriously, 'What Not To Wear' needs to stage a fundie frump intervention at a homeschool conference! It was beyond painful and almost damaged my eyes.

[neuroticcat]

Thank you so much Neuroticcat.

It's interesting that they held this on the same weekend as the ATI Big Sandy conference. You would think there would be a lot of ATI families who would have attended if it was on a different weekend.

That's a really great point. I wonder if that's part of the reason for the low turnout. Judging by the parking lot alone, I would say it was half or a third of what it was last year.

I did see one ATI fundie family I personally recognized - I went to elementary school with their son until they pulled him out to homeschool and they would occasionally visit us when they were road-trip/fellowshipping to Knoxville for the ATI convention there. Anyway, they were at this convention and not ATI - so there is hope! Maybe they left it behind! Of course all the kids are grown except for the youngest two who must be early 20s but were still at the conference. Incidentally the boy I knew grew up, did the whole ALERT thing, joined the military after, and if the profanity on his facebook page is any indication - left the cult behind.

[salex]

ENTS and THE BIBLE (this was a recurring theme). If you think you've studied the Bible, study it more. She also read Elizabeth Elliott's Passion in Purity and Passionate Housewives Desperate for God. Even though she is not a housewife the principles were applicable to her bad attitude problems and enabled her to work through her struggles with God's help.

Anna:SCRIPTURE - all other helps are written by someone fallible, but Scripture is infallible. Live and breathe the Scriptures - that is the only thing to keep you on the right track. Nobody arrives -w e all walk with the Lord in faith and learn how to use our single years for God's glory one faith step at a time.

Q: What are some ways you are currently ministering or have reached out to the needs of others and pursued personal development?

Leanne: She is at home with a small family. Laundry is her responsibility, and she keeps up with regular chores so Mom can do things like pay the bills and other more technical things. ( :wtf: ) She works in the vegetable garden because she likes being outside - sells the extrra at farmstand. She encourages Mom and Dad.

Rebekah: My mother says she worked herself into a managerial position. She runs a well-maintained household. In the summer she and her sister would trade of weeks to plan and cook meals. She does the laundry and tidies the house in case someone stops by.

The thing that came to mind for me reading this was the book "Like Water for Chocolate" Mom needs a slave.

[Vivi_music]

Q: Did this idea to be a SAHD evolve over time or did you always know you wanted to be one?

Brigitta - It evolved. She was "strong-willed" and had a desire to serve the Lord more than anything, but thought she had to do something that everyone else would thing was huge. She wanted to go to university and have a career. Then she realized she was doing the socially acceptable thing but now had lost opportunities to minister. She regrets losing that time with her family. Being a SAHD lets her have less constraints on her time and the ability to serve is greater. Going out of the home was not serving God, and her parents made it easy for her to transition to SAHD.

Awwww, this really broke my heart. The poor girl. I just feel like she's suppressing her inner most self.

Thanks Neuroticcat. You have some much more self-control than I would have had in the same situation. I think I would have stood and left way before the end.

[neuroticcat]

Awwww, this really broke my heart. The poor girl. I just feel like she's suppressing her inner most self.

Thanks Neuroticcat. You have some much more self-control than I would have had in the same situation. I think I would have stood and left way before the end.

Yes, Brigitta was almost the hardest to listen to - she definitely felt like the one who had wrestled with having some independent thought and then succumbed to fundie-think. It was sad that she ended up landing on giving it up, staying-at-home, and then marrying young. I hope her husband gives her space to express some of that and they can build a healthier lifestyle.

[Sister Mozz]

Honestly, I felt like crying at the end of the panel. I think the conference might be the high point for many of these families. So here were these women getting their moment in the spotlight - being held up as the model for fundie girls everywhere. And they want so earnestly to do God's will and please their parents and do the right thing. And it just felt like such a waste. They will go back to their 364 other days of mindless drudgery and meeting the needs of others. Nowhere in there did they say what they enjoy (the closest thing was the vegetable gardening woman who likes to be outside), what makes them unique, what they have to offer. It all is about meeting the needs of those around them, denying their selfish desires, and finding contentment.

I wanted to know what the hell their parents were doing. Really? Does Mother need all the chores done so she can pay bills? Is there SO much laundry for a family of four with grown children? And it makes me boiling mad that it's all done in the name of God. God doesn't want you to X. God wants you to Y. :angry-banghead: Also the continual reference to Scripture telling them to do this.

I feel so sad for them and all the younger girls in that room. In the very last row (we were standing in the back) was a mom with three very young girls and a new baby. They were remarkably quiet for the whole session and near the end one of the daughters - maybe about four years old - stood on her chair. And the mom got down right in eye level and said. "You may not do that. On the way in a I told you to stay seated and YOU ARE DISOBEYING ME." I mean, there is zero personal ownership even over the idea that she could stand up if she felt she had been sitting for too long.

I mean, I think we all come from dysfunctional families - there were certainly some triggers for me, because although my family wasn't fundie, I did have a controlling narcissistic mother, but all I could think was that they have completely stripped away any sense of self from these girls...and they have told themselves that is a Good Thing. And the daughters are now taking up the torch and denying and repressing any individuality and telling themselves that's what God Wants.

it gave me a whole new perspective on Doug Phillips and Gothard's sex abuse. It's not just that these women have been programmed to think of themselves as less than. They have been systematically taught to repress their needs, ignore their feelings,and meet the needs of EVERYONE else around them. And to do it while looking beautiful with a smile on their faces.

Well done fundie parents. You have groomed your daughters to be victims. :clap:

Neuroticcat, you just described almost 30 years of my life. I was conditioned to have no needs, to have no opinions, to be the least important. One of my parents literally told me that it was a sign of rebellion to wash my personal laundry separately and not put my dirty clothes in the family pile - never mind that it was just one load a week, or that I still helped with the family laundry. A sign of rebellion (spirit of Jezebel) for washing my own laundry? Yes. That is how bad it was. Never mind that the reason I did it was so that my clothing didn't get "lost" at the never-quite-empty hamper, or similarly "lost" by ending up in with my sisters instead of me. I was 28 years old when that happened.

Thankfully by that time I'd already identified this parent as a bully, and I didn't stop. About a week later there was actually an apology (maybe the other parent told them how ridiculous it sounded, or they remembered to keep me in good graces because I was raising all their other kids?) and "permission" was granted for me to continue.

I'm just so glad my eyes are open to all of this now. I still have a lot of interaction with my siblings, but not so much my emotionally and spiritually abusive parents. My road has been easier than some (no physical or sexual abuse, with healthy friendships who helped show me how to validate and take care of myself), but I wouldn't wish this lifestyle on anyone.

[neuroticcat]

Neuroticcat, you just described almost 30 years of my life. I was conditioned to have no needs, to have no opinions, to be the least important. One of my parents literally told me that it was a sign of rebellion to wash my personal laundry separately and not put my dirty clothes in the family pile - never mind that it was just one load a week, or that I still helped with the family laundry. A sign of rebellion (spirit of Jezebel) for washing my own laundry? Yes. That is how bad it was. Never mind that the reason I did it was so that my clothing didn't get "lost" at the never-quite-empty hamper, or similarly "lost" by ending up in with my sisters instead of me. I was 28 years old when that happened.

Thankfully by that time I'd already identified this parent as a bully, and I didn't stop. About a week later there was actually an apology (maybe the other parent told them how ridiculous it sounded, or they remembered to keep me in good graces because I was raising all their other kids?) and "permission" was granted for me to continue.

I'm just so glad my eyes are open to all of this now. I still have a lot of interaction with my siblings, but not so much my emotionally and spiritually abusive parents. My road has been easier than some (no physical or sexual abuse, with healthy friendships who helped show me how to validate and take care of myself), but I wouldn't wish this lifestyle on anyone.

I am so sorry, Sister Mozz. I can only imagine what that must have been like. Just hearing your description and these women on the panel was soul-crushing - living it must have been beyond awful. I'm so glad you got out and hope that these women will as well. The part where they talked about their disapproving extended family and other Christians who criticized their choice made me hopeful that they might have support to get out should they seek it.

[anniebgood]

Went to the Grand Canyon on Thursday and saw a family of fundies looking at the big canyon. Mom had a normal length dress on but a head covering and little girls had home sewn modest dresses. Dad and sons were in khakis. All around them were people talking about geology and how each little layer represents time and erosion and how many thousand years each was. I took a picture but I'm on the road and I can't get my email on my iPhone to cooperate. The little girls looked puzzled. They were really interested in the female elk that was eating around the parking lots and common areas.

[August]

The 25 year old who does nothing but housework, with a mother who also does nothing but housework, in a house with four adults. What a waste. What an empty, sad, wasted life.

Did she look like she'd catch the eye of a young man who'd be willing to jump through her father's hoops?