Transgender 6 year old banned from bathroom

[valsa]

I hope the parents aren't emphasizing the idea that there is something wrong with Coy's body. If that were my child, I would stress that her body is a perfectly healthy boy body and everything is functioning as it should. No matter what Coy decides to do as an adolescent or adult, she is going to have to live inside that boy body for many years, so I think it's best for her to learn to feel comfortable in her own skin and not view her body as sick or defective.

A trans friend of mine was suicidal as a teen due to extreme hatred of her male body. She said even having to go to the bathroom felt like a violation. Having a healthy, functioning body that is a wrong gender meant jack all to her.

[valsa]

Because no matter what he thinks he is he's still a boy. Like I said I respect a person's right to do what they want with their bodies but genetics decides what you are and I'm not gonna call them something else just to make them feel better.

What about intersex people who are born with the genitalia of one sex and the genetics of the other?

Just curious, what would you say if he decided in a couple years he wanted to be a boy again? Would you start calling him a he again? What if a few years later he decided he was wrong and liked it better as a girl? Should we just call a person a girl or a boy based on what they feel like at the time?

Sure. Why not.

[formergothardite]

Just from watching the videos it does appear that the mother enjoys all the attention way more than Coy. I think fighting for Coy's rights to be treated as a girl is very important, pushing her into the spotlight if she isn't comfortable with it should be avoided.

[formergothardite]

Because no matter what he thinks he is he's still a boy. Like I said I respect a person's right to do what they want with their bodies but genetics decides what you are and I'm not gonna call them something else just to make them feel better.

Just curious, what would you say if he decided in a couple years he wanted to be a boy again? Would you start calling him a he again? What if a few years later he decided he was wrong and liked it better as a girl? Should we just call a person a girl or a boy based on what they feel like at the time?

I guess you would do this to adult trans people too?

If Coy decides later to be a boy, sure, she can be called a boy. What's the big deal about respecting people's wishes? It doesn't hurt anyone.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think its likely a transgender child would feel there was something wrong with their body on their own, not necessarily something picked up from other people. At 6, a kid would notice that girls have vaginas and boys have penises, and feel theres something wrong because shes a girl and not supposed to have a penis.

Because no matter what he thinks he is he's still a boy. Like I said I respect a person's right to do what they want with their bodies but genetics decides what you are and I'm not gonna call them something else just to make them feel better.

Just curious, what would you say if he decided in a couple years he wanted to be a boy again? Would you start calling him a he again? What if a few years later he decided he was wrong and liked it better as a girl? Should we just call a person a girl or a boy based on what they feel like at the time?

She is not a boy, gender is different to sex. Yes, she has a penis, but thats only because she is too young to get her body changed to what it is supposed to be like. She is a girl in every other way. She knows that she is a girl, she feels like a girl and wants to dress and act like the little girl she is. She looks like a girl as well, other than her penis, but its not like people are going to notice that when they see her.

I know a transgender person. He is male, but he has a vagina. It doesnt change that he is a man, because hes a man in every other way than genitals.

Its not like when you look at people and recognise them as a boy or a girl, that you look in their pants. No. You look at what they identify as. Any woman you know could have a penis, and you would never notice.

If one day she decided that she was a boy, yes, you start referring to her as him. I dont think most people change their gender that often though. Although some people prefer to go by gender neutral pronouns and identify as both or neither.

[Turtle]

Because no matter what he thinks he is he's still a boy. Like I said I respect a person's right to do what they want with their bodies but genetics decides what you are and I'm not gonna call them something else just to make them feel better.

Just curious, what would you say if he decided in a couple years he wanted to be a boy again? Would you start calling him a he again? What if a few years later he decided he was wrong and liked it better as a girl? Should we just call a person a girl or a boy based on what they feel like at the time?

Why the fuck not? It takes absolutely no effort on my part to use the preferred pronoun. Why wouldn't I?

[FloraDoraDolly]

A trans friend of mine was suicidal as a teen due to extreme hatred of her male body. She said even having to go to the bathroom felt like a violation. Having a healthy, functioning body that is a wrong gender meant jack all to her.

Then what do you suggest? You think Coy's parents should spend the next ten years going on and on about how poor little Coy got stuck with that awful, horrible penis? Remember, Coy is six, not sixteen. That penis is going to be there for at least another ten years. Hopefully, Coy's parents and therapist can get her into a psychological space where she won't experience the self-hatred that your friend did.

[Turtle]

Someone already mentioned that the parents tried to appeal the school's decision and couldn't get anywhere. Media attention is an acceptable method of putting social pressure on an organization/institution and sometimes the only option an individual has. Why do you think we hear a lot about kids getting suspended/expelled for stupid zero tolerance policies or gay teens being barred from prom? Because media pressure works.

I think the parents are skirting an ethical line by using their child to gain greater recognition for the rights of trans children (ie- pushing their own agenda, noble though it may be) I can understand why they want to do it but don't think it's completely fair for Coy. However, even outside of pushing for trans rights in general, using the media may very well be one of the only options they have to get the bathroom problem solved anyway, so it's more like killing two birds with one stone at this point.

Coy does identify strongly as a girl. "Take me to the doctor so he can fix me" is a very strong identification.

While I agree with you that using the media can be the only recourse for some situations, I think her age makes it unethical for her parents to expose her to so much media attention. If there goal was to straighten out the bathroom situation and making school easier,I doubt all the media attention is helpful. Now, if she goes back to school, she's not just Coy but also "the transgender kid that was on the news". Before that, she could have changed schools or joined an accepting homeschool co-op and been treated as a normal little girl.

If the parents want to be advocates for the rights of transgender children, more power to them. But that doesn't justify violating your baby's privacy in that way. Comments about how she preferred "girl" blankets as a baby also make me cringe.

Anyway, I hope for all the best for little Coy.

[valsa]

Then what do you suggest? You think Coy's parents should spend the next ten years going on and on about how poor little Coy got stuck with that awful, horrible penis?

Yes, because the only two options here are "suck it up, at least you're healthy and functional" and "poor you, your body is a horrible abomination" :roll:

My point was that they should support Coy by not dismissing her feelings about her body. If I had a child that was, say, hard of hearing, I would support them and acknowledge any anger or sadness they may have about it, not tell them they should be grateful they're not blind too.

[formergothardite]

I wonder if there is someway to have brought this to the attention of the media without putting Coy in the spotlight. Watching the videos make me feel sad because she obviously doesn't like having to do this.

[Minerva]

Because no matter what he thinks he is he's still a boy. Like I said I respect a person's right to do what they want with their bodies but genetics decides what you are and I'm not gonna call them something else just to make them feel better.

Just curious, what would you say if he decided in a couple years he wanted to be a boy again? Would you start calling him a he again? What if a few years later he decided he was wrong and liked it better as a girl? Should we just call a person a girl or a boy based on what they feel like at the time?

I know several people who have asked to be referred to by different pronouns at different times. That's how some people have to figure out how they are most comfortable identifying - by living different identities. Because we're not jerks, we, their friends, have always been more than willing to make this little change in our vocabularies, while thanking our lucky stars that our own lives are so comparatively easy. This experimentation is not a big deal. Different clothes, different pronouns, and you might have to call them something different. You'd have to be incredibly petty for it to bother you at all, and incredibly selfish to put your own pettiness above other people's need for basic respect.

Why don't you believe that sex and gender are different? Why don't you think trans people's feelings are worth respecting?

[Minerva]

I bet it is possible to draw attention to something like that without putting your kid in the spotlight. You can have just the parent come on the talk shows, and if you really want the world to see the kid, they can air some pictures or maybe a home video.

It's also possible to have an article written about your family without your real names being used, but that could make your story less powerful, and in this family's case it could only do so much to protect their identities since anyone in their community could probably identify them to the press.

ETA and of course Nathan Lawrenson thinks a trans kid having their identity respected is bad. How is he supposed to feel speshul if everyone else has the same rights and opportunities as him?

[veron1que]

Transgender issues aside, I have to wonder how people who assign personal pronouns on physical sex rather than gender handle androgynous individuals.

How can you presume to assign "she" or "he" based on what's between someone's legs? There are plenty of instances where you wouldn't be able to look at a person and tell what their sex is, do you not take clues from how they express their gender; clothes, accessories, hair length, etc. in deciding whether they are a "he" or "she" ?

Here's my problem with the school and Coy. We know she has a penis, her parents have revealed this, and her legal status classifies her as 'Male', but let's say no one told the school she was biologically male, and her parents and the girl always stated she was a girl. How would anyone in the school know whether she had a penis or a vagina (or another intersex variation)?

Answer? They wouldn't, because no school official should be looking between the legs of a child before allowing them in a certain bathroom.

[Mama Mia]

The pulling the siblings out of school too seems really short-sighted as well. How will that impact their relationships with Coy if they "had" to leave their school and friends because of this ? It really seems like the parents are much more concerned with their role as being media advocates for a social cause - rather than being advocates for what makes their actual children happy.

Something about the mom, in particular, is just pushing all my buttons - so maybe I'm not being objective, but Coy really does seem incredibly sad and her mom seems oblivious.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Yes, because the only two options here are "suck it up, at least you're healthy and functional" and "poor you, your body is a horrible abomination" :roll:

My point was that they should support Coy by not dismissing her feelings about her body. If I had a child that was, say, hard of hearing, I would support them and acknowledge any anger or sadness they may have about it, not tell them they should be grateful they're not blind too.

I did not use the word "grateful." You have obviously mistaken me for Steve Maxwell.

If you go back and reread my original posts, you will see that the context is one where the child views herself as sick or defective and wants a doctor to "fix" her. This is not an attitude or a self-image that, IMO, should be reinforced at this stage. It is possible to empathize with the child without feeding into the sick/defective narrative. Rather, the parents could tell Coy "Yes, I understand that sometimes you get sad and angry because you want a girl body like your sister's. But your boy body isn't bad or sick. It's a good, healthy body. You can do a lot of wonderful things with it, like dance and ride your bicycle and draw pictures and (whatever Coy likes to do). There's nothing the doctors can do to change your body right now, but Dr. X (the therapist) is going to try to help you become more comfortable with it. I know it's not the same as getting the girl body you want, but we're all going to work together and find ways to help you feel better."

[JenniferJuniper]

There's a difference between someone who says they're a girl and wants a doctor to fix their body because they don't think it's right and a child who wants to be a boy (don't know if you said you actually were a boy or not but just wanting to be a boy and not wanting to wear dresses isn't the same as insisting you are the other gender) for other reasons. That's why parents of trans children usually have them meet with a psychologist to get a better picture of where their child's head is at, which is what these parents have already done.

None of us can really know which is the case here; only parents can provide a full history to an expert in order for some conclusions to drawn and even then, I doubt anything is etched in stone with a 6 year old. We also don't know what sort of experts this child has seen. These cases are quite rare; has she seen a pediatric specialist in gender identity disorder?

And circling back to the parents - something is off with these folks. According to CBS, “At 5 months old, Coy was already expressing a preference for items associated with girls, the Mathises recalled. A friend gave them baby blankets, and Coy took a pink blanket meant for Lily."

This is nonsense on several different levels. No 5 month old infant can understand the concept of colors or know that the color pink is associated with girls in society (or that in the early 19th century, pink was a color for boys and blue for girls), nor can it have any concept of "boy" or "girl" in the first place.

They also told CBS "While Max was excited when Coy opened her Christmas present in 2009 to find a toy car from the Disney movie "Cars," Coy simply set it down and walked away." Coy would have been 3 at time.

These comments would seem to indicate the parents were hypersensitized about gender roles and identity long before the child could really express a preference. Maybe the fact that they had triplets caused them compare and then over-analyze. I don't know. I only know that parents who find it worth noting which color of blanket their baby touches are clearly over-thinking and overreacting. Could they also have been subconsciously encouraging their child? I hope she truly is getting quality professional help.

[Bloo]

Transgender issues aside, I have to wonder how people who assign personal pronouns on physical sex rather than gender handle androgynous individuals.

How can you presume to assign "she" or "he" based on what's between someone's legs? There are plenty of instances where you wouldn't be able to look at a person and tell what their sex is, do you not take clues from how they express their gender; clothes, accessories, hair length, etc. in deciding whether they are a "he" or "she" ?

Here's my problem with the school and Coy. We know she has a penis, her parents have revealed this, and her legal status classifies her as 'Male', but let's say no one told the school she was biologically male, and her parents and the girl always stated she was a girl. How would anyone in the school know whether she had a penis or a vagina (or another intersex variation)?

Answer? They wouldn't, because no school official should be looking between the legs of a child before allowing them in a certain bathroom.

The only problem with this is that when registering Coy, the school would have required her birth certificate and her immunization records since it's public. Both of those would have marked M for sex. That information goes into the school's computer system and is given to teachers for their initial rosters. If she's still legally male, the school would have known before she ever attended.

As to the 4th survivor's asshole comments, I assume you never call a woman you grew up with by her married name? After all, she could get divorced, and then maybe marry again, or decide she prefers her maiden name, and that HUGE change is too tough for you...

[FloraDoraDolly]

None of us can really know which is the case here; only parents can provide a full history to an expert in order for some conclusions to drawn and even then, I doubt anything is etched in stone with a 6 year old. We also don't know what sort of experts this child has seen. These cases are quite rare; has she seen a pediatric specialist in gender identity disorder?

And circling back to the parents - something is off with these folks. According to CBS, “At 5 months old, Coy was already expressing a preference for items associated with girls, the Mathises recalled. A friend gave them baby blankets, and Coy took a pink blanket meant for Lily."

This is nonsense on several different levels. No 5 month old infant can understand the concept of colors or know that the color pink is associated with girls in society (or that in the early 19th century, pink was a color for boys and blue for girls), nor can it have any concept of "boy" or "girl" in the first place.

They also told CBS "While Max was excited when Coy opened her Christmas present in 2009 to find a toy car from the Disney movie "Cars," Coy simply set it down and walked away." Coy would have been 3 at time.

These comments would seem to indicate the parents were hypersensitized about gender roles and identity long before the child could really express a preference. Maybe the fact that they had triplets caused them compare and then over-analyze. I don't know. I only know that parents who find it worth noting which color of blanket their baby touches are clearly over-thinking and overreacting. Could they also have been subconsciously encouraging their child? I hope she truly is getting quality professional help.

The parents do seem to want to draw attention to themselves, not unlike *some people* we've all watched on the TLC network. I mean, the original objection to Coy using the staff washroom was supposed to be about not making this child feel singled out and different from the others in her class. OK, fine. So then the parents file a lawsuit, pull all of their children out of school, make a huge public stink about the situation, and drag Coy into the national spotlight. If that's not a recipe for making a child feel singled out and different from the rest, I don't know what is.

[Feberin]

I did some searching and found this (http://pasupatidasi.wordpressDOTcom/201 ... me-to-act/) post in the comments Coy's mother Kathrynm85 asks for information on a surgeon in Thailand. She does say that she has awhile before she would be getting her daughter surgery but this rubs me the wrong way. If I had a transgender six year old then I don't think I would be looking for surgeons.

I really feel bad for Coy but the mother rubs me the wrong way. I also don't think that the media attention will really help Coy's situation.

Edited to break the link

[gardenvarietycitizen]

There's a difference between someone who says they're a girl and wants a doctor to fix their body because they don't think it's right and a child who wants to be a boy (don't know if you said you actually were a boy or not but just wanting to be a boy and not wanting to wear dresses isn't the same as insisting you are the other gender) for other reasons. That's why parents of trans children usually have them meet with a psychologist to get a better picture of where their child's head is at, which is what these parents have already done.

But those kids don't grow up in a vacuum either. If some kid is told, from day one, not overtly but just via transmitted culture, that "being a boy" means you can't do X Y and Z, and you can't socialize with your best friends A B and C, and furthermore the kid knows that "being a boy" is all about having a penis, it's not surprising that some kids in that situation will wish that God will take the penis away or wonder when they can go and have it "fixed." It's the simplest "well of course!" magic solution after all.

Here's another thing that bothers me about this, I don't believe a 6 year old would ask "when is the doctor is going to give me girl parts?" on his own. That's pretty fishy if you ask me. I wonder if his parents haven't been coaching him on what to think.

I can easily believe they'd ask that without any obvious prompting or overt parental influence, but I don't think that it's proof of some non-culturally-influenced issues.

I myself loathed puberty (as a female, in my case). I hated the idea of having to wear a bra. If could magically take a pill to not have it happen, I would have in an instant. Why? Because maturing into the body shape my chromosomes will me to have means I am a sex object all of a sudden, and I didn't like it at all.

But the problem isn't with me. It's with society and its idea of "gender" boxes. (I want to smash the boxes entirely. Though I can understand people who say, well, the boxes exist right now and I want to do what I can to be assigned to the other box, in the meantime - but that's how I see it, as unpopular as that might be.)

I resisted somewhat, I didn't do all sorts of things that people swore I would "have to" do. I won't deny, I've marginalized myself somewhat by doing so, now that I'm in middle age I see it. Certain knowledge that "normal" women get in puberty times I didn't bother with and if I tried to learn now my inevitable noobishness would be weird and clumsy and out of place. But I'm comfortable with my choices (as I can say now from the vantage of having a secure career, where being weird is okay).

I will say the people who insist that they see supposedly "trans*" behavior in an 18 month old baby creep me out. I mean what, there are rules for gendered behavior so young? ALL of this rests on the idea that there are "ways" that "girls" behave, and "boys" behave. I have a problem with that. So then some parent sees in their kid that they are behaving the "way" that the other "gender" supposedly behaves, at 18 months... to identify that it's "other" or "not matching" there has to be some idea of what the norms are. That's stereotyping, and all the stories that I read about this just fall right into it.

I get that there's pain and alleviating the pain in the world that we are forced to live in right now is a concern, but I don't think the "problem" such as it is lies with the kid at all. But more and more I see people who want to reify this "gender" binary ("yes! there is 'woman' way of thinking and 'man' way of thinking!") but only to say, "well, I am (or 'my kid is' in many stories) on the wrong side of it." So more and more there's pressure to say, "well, if you're 'gender' non-conforming, then maybe you're trans*! Because we're enlightened, we know how to handle that!" (and how convenient, that narrative "fixes" things, says "well really you ARE conforming inside where it counts, just your bits were malformed!") and I just want to say, maybe we should just let people behave how they want, dress how they want, and not worry how that "correlates" with their genitalia AT ALL.

In the meantime yeah schools know the legal status of their students, but it's possible to let students live in the classroom under an alias (and supposed gender, if we insist on stupidly segregating kids on that basis) and it's not the end of the world.

[JenniferJuniper]

snipped a bit for highlighting purposes.

I myself loathed puberty (as a female, in my case). I hated the idea of having to wear a bra. If could magically take a pill to not have it happen, I would have in an instant. Why? Because maturing into the body shape my chromosomes will me to have means I am a sex object all of a sudden, and I didn't like it at all.

But the problem isn't with me. It's with society and its idea of "gender" boxes. (I want to smash the boxes entirely. Though I can understand people who say, well, the boxes exist right now and I want to do what I can to be assigned to the other box, in the meantime - but that's how I see it, as unpopular as that might be.)

I resisted somewhat, I didn't do all sorts of things that people swore I would "have to" do. I won't deny, I've marginalized myself somewhat by doing so, now that I'm in middle age I see it. Certain knowledge that "normal" women get in puberty times I didn't bother with and if I tried to learn now my inevitable noobishness would be weird and clumsy and out of place. But I'm comfortable with my choices (as I can say now from the vantage of having a secure career, where being weird is okay).

I will say the people who insist that they see supposedly "trans*" behavior in an 18 month old baby creep me out. I mean what, there are rules for gendered behavior so young? ALL of this rests on the idea that there are "ways" that "girls" behave, and "boys" behave. I have a problem with that. So then some parent sees in their kid that they are behaving the "way" that the other "gender" supposedly behaves, at 18 months... to identify that it's "other" or "not matching" there has to be some idea of what the norms are. That's stereotyping, and all the stories that I read about this just fall right into it.

I get that there's pain and alleviating the pain in the world that we are forced to live in right now is a concern, but I don't think the "problem" such as it is lies with the kid at all. But more and more I see people who want to reify this "gender" binary ("yes! there is 'woman' way of thinking and 'man' way of thinking!") but only to say, "well, I am (or 'my kid is' in many stories) on the wrong side of it." So more and more there's pressure to say, "well, if you're 'gender' non-conforming, then maybe you're trans*! Because we're enlightened, we know how to handle that!" (and how convenient, that narrative "fixes" things, says "well really you ARE conforming inside where it counts, just your bits were malformed!") and I just want to say, maybe we should just let people behave how they want, dress how they want, and not worry how that "correlates" with their genitalia AT ALL.

I think you've nailed it.

The problem is not with children who want to express themselves as the individuals they are; the problem is with a society that insists they fit into one of only two molds. Or else.

And any parent who is investigating gender reassignment surgery in Thailand for a six year old should be investigated herself.

[B5SnowDog]

I know several people who have asked to be referred to by different pronouns at different times. That's how some people have to figure out how they are most comfortable identifying - by living different identities. Because we're not jerks, we, their friends, have always been more than willing to make this little change in our vocabularies, while thanking our lucky stars that our own lives are so comparatively easy. This experimentation is not a big deal. Different clothes, different pronouns, and you might have to call them something different. You'd have to be incredibly petty for it to bother you at all, and incredibly selfish to put your own pettiness above other people's need for basic respect.

Why don't you believe that sex and gender are different? Why don't you think trans people's feelings are worth respecting?

Considering the 4th survivor's posts in the Neo-Nazi thread, I think you're wasting your time.

[already hungover]

The pulling the siblings out of school too seems really short-sighted as well. How will that impact their relationships with Coy if they "had" to leave their school and friends because of this ? It really seems like the parents are much more concerned with their role as being media advocates for a social cause - rather than being advocates for what makes their actual children happy.

Something about the mom, in particular, is just pushing all my buttons - so maybe I'm not being objective, but Coy really does seem incredibly sad and her mom seems oblivious.

The mom is sketchy to me. She had a huge internet presence but it's been pretty securely locked down. Coy has a sister who contracted RSV when they were infants. The current rumor swirling around the internet says that her parents didn't take her to the doctor when she started showing symptoms and chose to use alternative medicine instead. The sister ended up with severe, global brain damage. The mom, in particular, asked people to contribute money to buy a $40k wheelchair van for the family.

[Mama Mia]

Yeah, it just seems like an awful lot of attention seeking - although I do know that viral complications can strike incredibly quickly, and what any parent would assume is just a mild childhood virus that all children get will on rare occasions suddenly and randomly turn into a life altering disease, really scary.

But you add that to the two other kids being autism spectrum, and sensing that Coy was "different" due to her choice in baby blankets ....it makes me wonder what is going to be the story with the youngest child.

[nimerha]

Because no matter what he thinks he is he's still a boy. Like I said I respect a person's right to do what they want with their bodies but genetics decides what you are and I'm not gonna call them something else just to make them feel better.

Just curious, what would you say if he decided in a couple years he wanted to be a boy again? Would you start calling him a he again? What if a few years later he decided he was wrong and liked it better as a girl? Should we just call a person a girl or a boy based on what they feel like at the time?

I thought very hard about these questions are here are my carefully and finely crafted responses:

1. Jackshit

2. Yes

3. Whatever

4. Yes

Aaaand add foe. Suddenly, the place smells ever so much better.