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Transgender 6 year old banned from bathroom


valsa

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LOL! Seriously - trans bullying has been in the news for a long time. It doesn't take a genius, a psychic, or a friend of the family to puzzle this one out.

Coy was using the girls' restroom for a long time before the school changed directions. Why do you suppose that happened?

So your argument seems to be that other people are made uncomfortable by a transgender 6 year old, so the 6 year old should hide her identity until she is what age exactly? 13? 18? 22 and done with college? Why would people be more comfortable with a transgender adolescent than a transgender 6 year old?

Also, why is it up to the 6 year old and her family to cater to other peoples biases to the point where she should have to hide her identity?

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Some of this also brings up an age-old stupid question...

why the hell is gender important in school anyhow?

Other than going into the 'correct' bathroom, gender should be a non-issue @ school; especially at the very pre-puberty ages.

I mean, wouldn't it be more educational for the kids to line up by number, by age, by alphabetical ordr of last names, etc than by gender?

Wouldn't it eliminate 90% of the crap that's being discussed?

Couldn't we just make the bathrooms for wee ones be gender neutral--which would also save the whole "but I have to go now and there are no empty stalls in the girls room" dance/accident issues?

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So your argument seems to be that other people are made uncomfortable by a transgender 6 year old, so the 6 year old should hide her identity until she is what age exactly? 13? 18? 22 and done with college? Why would people be more comfortable with a transgender adolescent than a transgender 6 year old?

Also, why is it up to the 6 year old and her family to cater to other peoples biases to the point where she should have to hide her identity?

Well...yes. That is essentially my argument. By middle school, that poor kid could get her face kicked in just because she's different. She should be old enough, when she steps out in public as a woman, to have a strong shell around her psyche. If not, there are some nasty people out there who will try to utterly destroy her - and they could succeed.

I don't think the girl and her family should cater to other people's biases; I think they should wary of them.

I don't know at what age she should 'come out' - I think that's different for every person - but I do think she should be older than six. If she's ready at 13, then so be it. If she can defend herself at 16 or 18, then so be it. But six?

What would happen if one of those parents confronted the girl? "You're not normal. You shouldn't exist." What does a girl that age say to something like this?

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Well...yes. That is essentially my argument. By middle school, that poor kid could get her face kicked in just because she's different. She should be old enough, when she steps out in public as a woman, to have a strong shell around her psyche. If not, there are some nasty people out there who will try to utterly destroy her - and they could succeed.

I don't think the girl and her family should cater to other people's biases; I think they should wary of them.

I don't know at what age she should 'come out' - I think that's different for every person - but I do think she should be older than six. If she's ready at 13, then so be it. If she can defend herself at 16 or 18, then so be it. But six?

What would happen if one of those parents confronted the girl? "You're not normal. You shouldn't exist." What does a girl that age say to something like this?

In middle school, lots of kids get their face kicked in for having the wrong color jacket, so I don't find that to be a very persuasive arguement. It would seem to me more empowering and safe for students who don't fit in a blond, blue eyed,cis, non-disabled box for the schools to...gee I dont know...actually educate children and parents and model inclusive behavior, thin it is for all non normative kids to stay in the closet for fear of violence.

Also, if you think other parents only make asshole comments to other people's kids if they don't follow gender norms, then you clearly have not been to a youth sports event recently. In my world, when parents make abusive comments about other people's children, they are banned from school events and told to read the school's code of conduct, so it's not that hard for a school to demonstrate consequences.

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In middle school, lots of kids get their face kicked in for having the wrong color jacket, so I don't find that to be a very persuasive arguement.

...except that she would be a member of a protected, and historically maligned, class. They wouldn't be kicking her face in just because she was wearing the wrong color jacket; they'd be doing it because she's a transsexual. They'd be committing a hate crime. (Didn't we just have this argument about whether a black nurse should have additional legal protection because she's a member of a historically maligned class? As I recall, you defended her suit. The only difference I see here is that Coy might not get the same legal considerations, no matter how hostile the environment is.)

It would seem to me more empowering and safe for students who don't fit in a blond, blue eyed,cis, non-disabled box for the schools to...gee I dont know...actually educate children and parents and model inclusive behavior, thin it is for all non normative kids to stay in the closet for fear of violence.

I would love that. Seriously. (In our other argument, I used it as justification for nearly unfettered speech, in fact.)

But we're not talking about an older kid here, or an adult. We're talking about a six-year-old.

Question: Is she advanced enough to verbally defend herself, and mean it, against the barbs that will be aimed at her?

Also, if you think other parents only make asshole comments to other people's kids if they don't follow gender norms, then you clearly have not been to a youth sports event recently.

Um, where did I claim the only place asshole parents make asshole comments is in relation to gender identity? Oh, wait; I didn't.

And there's a difference between a sporting event and the asshole parents who shout shit from the sidelines and a direct confrontation between an adult and unrelated child over something as personal as orientation.

In my world, when parents make abusive comments about other people's children, they are banned from school events and told to read the school's code of conduct, so it's not that hard for a school to demonstrate consequences.

So what? The parent is then banned. The kid has already been introduced to the hateful comment. It's already in there doing its work. The words have already been spoken. 'You're unnatural. You have no right to exist.'

An older kid could walk that off.

But I seriously want to know if you think a six-year-old can.

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This is a thing most of her classmates, and alas some of their parents, simply do not understand or refuse to accept.

Actually, one thing I've seen over and over again is that introducing the concept of a transgender child early is a good thing. Children are accepting, especially at a young age. If she's out as a girl now, it's very easy for her same-age classmates to incorporate "Oh, some people have the bodies of a boy but the mind of a girl. Okay" into their worldview as a norm. The problem with bullying comes in when children aren't introduced to the idea of "okay, some people's minds and bodies don't match up and that's as normal as Becky having red hair or Tyler having two moms" when they're young and have to deal with it when they're older, have absorbed more prejudices, and are a lot less open-minded.

Also, I think you're vastly underestimating the harm of having to live as a gender you're not. Like it or not (I personally don't), boys and girls get treated differently in our society. How is a little girl suppose to feel when she sees other girls in her peer group having a great time dressing up in pretty dresses and play makeup and being socially encouraged to express feelings, and she's stuck in ugly boy clothes, isn't allowed to wear pretty dresses, is expected by everyone to play with boring trucks instead of the baby dolls she wants to, and is told "stop that, boys don't cry" when she expresses sadness?

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Looking back, my discomfort with taking on feminine roles was actually about not wanting to take on the weak role of the princess who passively needed to be rescued or whatever. When I started to encounter girl protagonists in books, I became more comfortable identifying as a girl character in my play, because I realized I could portray a lady knight instead of just a damsel in distress. (This is why it's so incredibly important to make sure that girls have strong role models in the media they consume...but I digress.)

As a kid I auditioned for the Wizard of Oz, but I wanted to be the Wicked Witch of the West, not Dorothy. To me, Dorothy seemed too passive and inactive to be a really interesting character. The Witch, though, she made stuff *happen*! She was so dynamic and just plain interesting!

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Question: Is she advanced enough to verbally defend herself, and mean it, against the barbs that will be aimed at her?

Question: Why does she have to be?

If she were severely physically disabled (another historically discriminated against group), would she be expected to not be in public school until she could verbally defend herself against bullying she would experience for it? Should parents of disabled kids either homeschool or have their own special "disabled kids" schools until the kids get to an age where they can defend themselves against adults and other children saying hurtful and ignorant things?

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Actually, one thing I've seen over and over again is that introducing the concept of a transgender child early is a good thing. Children are accepting, especially at a young age. If she's out as a girl now, it's very easy for her same-age classmates to incorporate "Oh, some people have the bodies of a boy but the mind of a girl. Okay" into their worldview as a norm. The problem with bullying comes in when children aren't introduced to the idea of "okay, some people's minds and bodies don't match up and that's as normal as Becky having red hair or Tyler having two moms" when they're young and have to deal with it when they're older, have absorbed more prejudices, and are a lot less open-minded.

Okay, that's a fair point - but I'm also considering what kind of shit those kids' parents are telling them. They're not just interacting with the girl, but with a whole lot of other people - parents, pastors, talk radio...

I don't think it's as simple as introducing a concept to kids young so they're more willing to accept it. I think those kids also have to navigate the prejudices of their own families and other friends as well. And those prejudices can pose a real risk to Coy – not just to her mind, either, but to her physical person.

Also, I think you're vastly underestimating the harm of having to live as a gender you're not. Like it or not (I personally don't), boys and girls get treated differently in our society. How is a little girl suppose to feel when she sees other girls in her peer group having a great time dressing up in pretty dresses and play makeup and being socially encouraged to express feelings, and she's stuck in ugly boy clothes, isn't allowed to wear pretty dresses, is expected by everyone to play with boring trucks instead of the baby dolls she wants to, and is told "stop that, boys don't cry" when she expresses sadness?

I agree to a point. I think she should be doing those things at home and on outings with her parents. And, when she's old enough, she should be doing them with friends at school too.

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In middle school, lots of kids get their face kicked in for having the wrong color jacket, so I don't find that to be a very persuasive arguement. It would seem to me more empowering and safe for students who don't fit in a blond, blue eyed,cis, non-disabled box for the schools to...gee I dont know...actually educate children and parents and model inclusive behavior, thin it is for all non normative kids to stay in the closet for fear of violence.

Also, if you think other parents only make asshole comments to other people's kids if they don't follow gender norms, then you clearly have not been to a youth sports event recently. In my world, when parents make abusive comments about other people's children, they are banned from school events and told to read the school's code of conduct, so it's not that hard for a school to demonstrate consequences.

I think that both of you are making good points. It is very important to educate children and parents about inclusive behavior (and I believe in this) and at the same time the parents of the trangender kid should take in account that not everybody is going to accept her and try to help her with this. I am not talking about staying in the closet, but more in the sense that "you are trans and there some people who can use that against you, so be prepare".

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I know it sounds harsh, but I don't think a six-year-old trans-girl should be “out†at school. At home, yes. At school, no. She's not old enough to deal with the blow-back, yet, and I suspect this bathroom thing is just the latest crap Coy has had to endure because of her nature.

[snip]

It sucks, but she should hide out until she's strong enough to advocate for herself and sure enough of her own identity to defend it against all attacks.

The only way I can see the first part is if she isn't out at school as transgender, just attending as female, because it worries adults when a box isn't ticked and I don't remember anyone checking pant-paraphanelia while I was in school. However, by not discussing publicly (as a society, I don't mean Coy specifically) the issues of transgender and sexual orientation, society would/will never get to the point where the second part can be done safely. Too many cis-gendered heterosexual bigots would continue to exist and a statistically significant portion of them would require all persons to confirm to the small box, some insisting through violent means.

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You seem to be assuming that the 6 year old exists in a vacuum. Of course it will be damaging if a parent says something hateful to her, but that is why she has parents and counselors and other supportive adults in her life. I remember being out shopping with my grandmother as a small child , and a man came up to me and said it's a shame that they didn't "get" all of us when my grandmother was little, because nits make lice. It was ugly and hateful, but I had people around me to explain and support, and it didn't scar me for life.

Also, I think your argument is victim blaming. "Dont be who you are, because other people will say/do hateful things" is simply reinforcing prejudice. How is it different than blaming a woman for her rape because she wore a short skirt?

and actually, in our previous discussion, I was not arguing of the nurse should or should not have protection because of race, I was pointing out that under US law, she does. You were making assumptions about US discrimination law in your argument about hate speech that were not accurate.

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Question: Why does she have to be?

Because if she can't defend herself and mean it, it will damage her. She'll think about it. She may internalize it.

My argument has nothing to do with making other people more comfortable and everything to do with the danger I believe a girl in that situation will face.

If she were severely physically disabled (another historically discriminated against group), would she be expected to not be in public school until she could verbally defend herself against bullying she would experience for it?

A lot of kids with severe physical disabilities have aides at school not so much to help them with their work but to defend them from some of the other kids. And schools already do have 'special classrooms' for disabled kids, and even special schools for people who are blind or deaf.

And this is not necessarily because these kids can't compete academically. Many of them can, and then some. It's because other people sometimes pose a danger to them.

Human nature sucks.

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I agree with those that are saying that it could be harmful to a kid's psyche to have to "pretend" to be a gender which they're not. There is no age where this will be accepted by everyone, so the earlier the idea is introduced, the better. Why would a child choose this difficult path unless it was truly who they were inside? I don't think a person should have to hide who they are just because of someone else's bigotry. It would make them think that there's something wrong with them and that people's prejudices must be right.

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Also, I think your argument is victim blaming. "Dont be who you are, because other people will say/do hateful things" is simply reinforcing prejudice. How is it different than blaming a woman for her rape because she wore a short skirt?

I'm not even going to dignify that horseshit with a rebuttal.

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I agree with those that are saying that it could be harmful to a kid's psyche to have to "pretend" to be a gender which they're not. There is no age where this will be accepted by everyone, so the earlier the idea is introduced, the better. Why would a child choose this difficult path unless it was truly who they were inside? I don't think a person should have to hide who they are just because of someone else's bigotry. It would make them think that there's something wrong with them and that people's prejudices must be right.

I don't think a person should have to. I think sometimes they must, until they have the strength and experience and resources to walk off the cruelty instead of being injured by it.

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I understand wanting to protect a child from prejudice, but Coy is a girl - she doesn't stop being a girl just because some people school might not like it, and I think having to somehow keep her real gender under wraps would be more psychologically damaging than any bullying she'd get. I know you're not intending to be victim-blaming Burris, but what if it was a child who said they were gay? Would you tell them to not be gay at school? Why are you putting all the risk-avoidance on Coy, and not saying it's up to the other kids/parents etc not to bully?

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I thought allowing the child to use the gender neutral/staff bathroom was perfectly fine. I don't think it's fair to really pretend like "she's just like all the other little girls." She's not. She has a penis. And while I do think that children should be allowed to express themselves, I'm in the camp that at age 6 she is just too young to know who she really is. I also think it's really important to teach children that rules are there for a reason. I have a child with autism and she loves playing on playgrounds---but she's 13, and 5 ft 6, and she has to understand that most playgrounds are too small for her to play on. So she respects the rules. I do think age 6 is too young to be making all the choices for yourself about what you want. My daughters at age 6 wanted to wear tutus 24-7, but you know, I had to say NO. I think we walk a fine line between respecting a child's choices, and forcing your child's choices upon everyone else. I think finding a compromise is the best solution, and allowing this child the use of a staff/gender neutral bathroom, IMHO, was a good compromise.

We all have to conform to social norms to some extent, and little kids can be cruel. I have daughters and they don't run around in princess costumes and dress head to toe in pink. I noticed the child in the CNN article had magenta hair, I wouldn't allow my 6 year old daughter to dye her hair magenta just because she's a girl. The reality is, that the more you stick out, the more people are going to notice you, and not always in a good way. Children need limits and to be taught how to live in society. It is fine to "be yourself", but that sometimes comes at a price. You can't force the rest of the world to see things your way. As far as I'm concerned, until puberty, no one really knows for sure "who they are". Whether they are gay or straight, bisexual, truly transgendered....only an older teen or adult can really know, and make a choice to live as who they are, even at the risk of discrimination. I hate to see children being used as a "voice" for an adult platform, and that is what I'm seeing more and more. Kids aren't mature enough to make adult decisions, or accept the backlash of trying to live differently. Adults know how much prejudice and discrimination hurts, I just can't imagine as a parent throwing my kid out there like that. I have daughters and a son, and most of the time they wear gender neutral clothing. My child on the spectrum actually prefers men's clothing, but that doesn't mean I'd send her to school in a suit and tie. There is plenty of middle ground and compromise out there.

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I thought allowing the child to use the gender neutral/staff bathroom was perfectly fine. I don't think it's fair to really pretend like "she's just like all the other little girls." She's not. She has a penis. And while I do think that children should be allowed to express themselves, I'm in the camp that at age 6 she is just too young to know who she really is. I also think it's really important to teach children that rules are there for a reason. I have a child with autism and she loves playing on playgrounds---but she's 13, and 5 ft 6, and she has to understand that most playgrounds are too small for her to play on. So she respects the rules. I do think age 6 is too young to be making all the choices for yourself about what you want. My daughters at age 6 wanted to wear tutus 24-7, but you know, I had to say NO. I think we walk a fine line between respecting a child's choices, and forcing your child's choices upon everyone else. I think finding a compromise is the best solution, and allowing this child the use of a staff/gender neutral bathroom, IMHO, was a good compromise.

We all have to conform to social norms to some extent, and little kids can be cruel. I have daughters and they don't run around in princess costumes and dress head to toe in pink. I noticed the child in the CNN article had magenta hair, I wouldn't allow my 6 year old daughter to dye her hair magenta just because she's a girl. The reality is, that the more you stick out, the more people are going to notice you, and not always in a good way. Children need limits and to be taught how to live in society. It is fine to "be yourself", but that sometimes comes at a price. You can't force the rest of the world to see things your way. As far as I'm concerned, until puberty, no one really knows for sure "who they are". Whether they are gay or straight, bisexual, truly transgendered....only an older teen or adult can really know, and make a choice to live as who they are, even at the risk of discrimination. I hate to see children being used as a "voice" for an adult platform, and that is what I'm seeing more and more. Kids aren't mature enough to make adult decisions, or accept the backlash of trying to live differently. Adults know how much prejudice and discrimination hurts, I just can't imagine as a parent throwing my kid out there like that. I have daughters and a son, and most of the time they wear gender neutral clothing. My child on the spectrum actually prefers men's clothing, but that doesn't mean I'd send her to school in a suit and tie. There is plenty of middle ground and compromise out there.

The only person who knows Coy's real gender is Coy, it's not for you to comment on. And as has been said upthread, Coy having a penis makes no difference to the other girls in the girls' bathroom. They won't see it.

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I understand wanting to protect a child from prejudice, but Coy is a girl - she doesn't stop being a girl just because some people school might not like it, and I think having to somehow keep her real gender under wraps would be more psychologically damaging than any bullying she'd get. I know you're not intending to be victim-blaming Burris, but what if it was a child who said they were gay? Would you tell them to not be gay at school?

If the gay child were six? I would tell him or her to keep it under wraps at school until he or she is older.

Why are you putting all the risk-avoidance on Coy, and not saying it's up to the other kids/parents etc not to bully?

I don;t think for one second that other kids and parents should bully. I think there should be harsher penalties for such actions. But I also think that's a long time in coming; that Coy herself will have to endure a world of hurt at the hands of people who do not recognize her right to exist as she is.

I don't think victims are responsible for their rapes, or that Coy is responsible for being bullied.

I do think. however, that a six-year-old - and yes, her age is what concerns me most - just shouldn't have to put up with this crap. She's a girl. But she may have to hide in boy's clothing for awhile as she builds up strength and endurance. She shouldn't have to. It isn't right. But it's how things are right now.

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I see Burris's point - and I bet the parents can too, since they've pulled their kids out of school at the moment, until this is settled. SOMEbody at the school made this an issue.

But making Coy use a different bathroom isn't going to make bullying go away, and making her hide her gender identity is not going to give her the supported practice she'll need to learn how to deal with negative comments. Hiding who you are to avoid bullying is a pretty advanced strategy - teaching it to little kids just makes them feel like their self is the problem. It takes at least a tween to see it as a strategic response to an unfair world instead of hiding out of shame, I think.

(I actually can see giving a trans kid - especially once they hit middle school age - the OPTION of using the unisex staff bathroom to avoid bullying situations as a really nice & sensitive response. But MAKING her use it isn't.)

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I'm not even going to dignify that horseshit with a rebuttal.

It's actually a super legit question.

I'm in grad school at a large private university (not religiously affiliated). Because I don't usually pass as male, especially when naked, I was in the women's locker room showering after working out. There are no gender neutral changing facilities. After exiting the shower with a towel wrapped tightly around me I heard "WHAT THE F***?" and then another girl yelled "GET THE F*** OUT OF HERE YOU PERVERT." One girl ran out saying she was going to get security and as I walked over to my clothes which were further down the bench the first girl who had screamed was sitting on she grabbed my arm and shoved me out of the way.

So this situation was my fault?

I should never go to the gym?

I've advocated gender neutral changing spaces but nothing has changed.

Should I grow my hair out longer? Should I shave my legs or my pits?

Should I announce, upon exiting the shower, "I KNOW I LOOK LIKE A DUDE BUT IF YOU'D LIKE TO SEE MY VAGINA I'M HAPPY TO SHOW IT OFF, JUST ASK!"?

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What would happen if one of those parents confronted the girl? "You're not normal. You shouldn't exist." What does a girl that age say to something like this?

What if they come up and criticize her for being the wrong race or religion? Should all six year olds be sent to segregated religious schools so as to minimize the odds of bumping into people who are bigoted against them? It wasn't that long ago that schools were integrated, and the kids had to put up with a lot worse than hard words. But if we had waited until everybody was "ready" then they STILL would be going to separate white and colored schools down south.

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It's actually a super legit question.

No, it is not. Do most parents let their six-year-olds walk long distances alone? Why not? It's not the child's fault if some perv attacks her, but her parents should practice some risk avoidance in that situation because the child is a minor - a young minor with only an inkling of the danger she may be in.

So this situation was my fault?

I should never go to the gym?

No and no.

But you're an adult. You know people can be total assholes. You're not, I assume, going to internalize the message to the point where you contemplate self-harm. You can speak cogently for yourself. You can defend your own rights to security, to the university, in court - anywhere.

A little kid? Not so much.

I've advocated gender neutral changing spaces but nothing has changed.

And even as an adult and a grad student at that university, you still face prejudice and the administration still won't make that simple accommodation.

How much worse for a kid?

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What if they come up and criticize her for being the wrong race or religion? Should all six year olds be sent to segregated religious schools so as to minimize the odds of bumping into people who are bigoted against them?

No, but they should be protected as much as possible.

It wasn't that long ago that schools were integrated, and the kids had to put up with a lot worse than hard words. But if we had waited until everybody was "ready" then they STILL would be going to separate white and colored schools down south.

A fair point - but more people are willing to treat race as an innocent condition of being, and not a choice, than they are to do the same for trans-people.

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