Transgender 6 year old banned from bathroom

[CoatRack]

Ohhey purposeful naivete! Whaddup? You're always so fun.

I don't pigeonhole children. My point was that if a kid has a firm gender identity (in my case, male) they may still act like a child. Pretending to be a dinosaur or a porcupine or whatthehellever. Their gender identity is different from their imagination. If it goes away after a day or a week or something then, hey, cool. But for heaven's sake if your kid is coming home sobbing because the teacher made them line up with the girls and they insist they're a boy that's different than a kid saying "I'm not Luke! I'm a puppy! Woof!" And I know some Smarty McSmartypants is going to come in and say that their child regularly sobs because their teacher didn't treat them like a puppy and, thus, my argument is invalid. For you, dear friends, I have a cheer:

We all have power

That we didn't earn

Own the s*** you're bringing

Listen and learn

Check your privilege

Check Check your privilege

Check your privilege

Check Check your privilege

I also say "stop derailing." I just don't have a cheer for that.

[already hungover]

Sorry but I think a 6 year old is too young to make a decision like that because at that age they really don't know what they want. Sure they can say "I want to be this, I want to be that" but lots of children that age say outrageous things like they want to be an astronaut or a cowboy or a princess. That doesn't mean you let your kid go to school in a spacesuit or a princess outfit now does it? This kid is a boy and I think he should have to use the guy's bathroom. The reason we don't have boys using the girl's bathroom is not because of superficial stuff like boys having shorter hair or whatever. It's because they have male parts and most girls don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as boys. Why should this kids rights come before theirs?

So how old were you when you chose your gender?

[MyNameIsJonas]

Ohhey purposeful naivete! Whaddup? You're always so fun.

I don't pigeonhole children. My point was that if a kid has a firm gender identity (in my case, male) they may still act like a child. Pretending to be a dinosaur or a porcupine or whatthehellever. Their gender identity is different from their imagination. If it goes away after a day or a week or something then, hey, cool. But for heaven's sake if your kid is coming home sobbing because the teacher made them line up with the girls and they insist they're a boy that's different than a kid saying "I'm not Luke! I'm a puppy! Woof!" And I know some Smarty McSmartypants is going to come in and say that their child regularly sobs because their teacher didn't treat them like a puppy and, thus, my argument is invalid.

Exactly. And sure, children would probably identify as neutral w/o parental or societal influence, but we don't live in that kind of world right now, unfortunately. No one is immune to or exempt from societal influence, no matter how much they think they are.

[Mama Mia]

Ohhey purposeful naivete! Whaddup? You're always so fun.

I don't pigeonhole children. My point was that if a kid has a firm gender identity (in my case, male) they may still act like a child. Pretending to be a dinosaur or a porcupine or whatthehellever. Their gender identity is different from their imagination. If it goes away after a day or a week or something then, hey, cool. But for heaven's sake if your kid is coming home sobbing because the teacher made them line up with the girls and they insist they're a boy that's different than a kid saying "I'm not Luke! I'm a puppy! Woof!" And I know some Smarty McSmartypants is going to come in and say that their child regularly sobs because their teacher didn't treat them like a puppy and, thus, my argument is invalid. For you, dear friends, I have a cheer:

We all have power

That we didn't earn

Own the s*** you're bringing

Listen and learn

Check your privilege

Check Check your privilege

Check your privilege

Check Check your privilege

I also say "stop derailing." I just don't have a cheer for that.

Or you could, you know, actually try to provide useful information - that's always an option.

Personally, I am genuinely curious about at what age, how long etc.. you ( or anyone else with experience with this issue ) - would think is appropriate in order to move forward with having a young child identified as the opposite gender of what they were born with. If I phrased that wrong, I apologize.

I understand what you are saying about it being different than just a phase like other little kid phases and obsessions - I get that. But it really isn't as simple as saying "well they identify as x now, if they change their mind in a few months, that's fine" . This kid in question is lucky to have a very gender neutral name. If your child is named Molly and wants to switch to Mark and you notify the school of this - you can't just switch back to Molly a few months later. If you buy your kid gender specific clothes and toys you can't change that 3 months later (unless you have a lot of money ). If you make sure your kid signs up for Brownies you don't switch it to cub scouts a couple months later and then back again. Especially since the kids involved seem to want to go by extremely stereotypical "girl" or "boy" roles/games/clothing I don't think you can just easily switch back and forth in their interactions outside the home all that easily.

So you would want to know it isn't a phase. What, in your opinion, would be a good amount of time, or distinguishing features or an age where it would make sense to pursue this if your child wanted to ?

And yeah, lots of little kids will go on obsessive bents and freak out if people contradict them - so you do need some sort of basis to start from. I'm not saying this particular six year old isn't a girl, I'm asking, from your view, how would a parent know when it is a real enough thing to actually look into making it "official" ? I understand talking to a psychologist might help - but really little kids are extremely difficult in any sort of counseling because their reality shifts constantly.

[zcccrv]

Someone mentioned an issue which I believe to be at the heart of the discussion- how the heterosexual majority needs to trust the LGBT community about the authenticity of their sexual preferences even if the heterosexual can't grasp being attracted to the same sex. By the same token (trust) the circumstances of this child's life should be left up to the parents to decide. It makes people uncomfortable when the child in question is very young and therefor very vulnerable to the parental influence, but trust is trust and since the parents are the ones who are legally responsible they should get to make the calls.

However, trust is not what ultimately makes the society decide upon extending freedom to minorities. I don't necessarily have to trust that gays are attracted to the same sex. I only have to be able to grasp the societal benefits of equal rights- more happy people, more happy adoptees. There are no drawbacks at all (I know the fundamentalists would argue that point but whatever) yet there are benefits. We're talking about adults who are held responsible for their actions yet THEY still have a long battle to fight.

When children are in question we always go back to the perpetual question: to what degree should parents be free to decide for their kids? For example- is raising children in a fundamentalist home schooling environment okay? Legally it is. Morally, it can fuck kids up big time. What about the Amish? I don't live in the US but that situation makes me terribly uncomfortable and I question it's morality.

I'm a minority in my (non)religious preference, an atheist, but I understand that as long as atheists don't offer some kind of a societal benefit or become sufficiently numerous my screaming "wake up people" off the top of my lungs won't get me anywhere except maybe prison. It's a kooky world.

Ideally my solution for this problem would be, like someone mentioned, unisex bathrooms. I have no problem sharing the same space with men. In fact I've heard more then once that men's toilets tend to be cleaner than the women's so maybe I would benefit from the unisex setup.

Unfortunately that is not how reality looks. In reality lines are drawn. In reality kids are vulnerable to parental pressure/abuse as long as it doesn't involve beating them up or locking them down. In reality I think I would support Coy visiting the teacher's bathroom until he/she is old enough to go through extensive evaluation before deciding upon taking supplements or not. I think the school did a reasonable thing. Transgender kids ARE different right now in our kooky world. Whatever toilet he/she should visit I still think Coy has a far better chance at becoming a happy and productive member of the kookiness than the Amish or fundamentalist kids do. It perhaps sounds very cruel but the gist of it is: stand in line and work towards your goal smartly and slowly.

[formergothardite]

Sorry but I think a 6 year old is too young to make a decision like that because at that age they really don't know what they want. Sure they can say "I want to be this, I want to be that" but lots of children that age say outrageous things like they want to be an astronaut or a cowboy or a princess. That doesn't mean you let your kid go to school in a spacesuit or a princess outfit now does it? This kid is a boy and I think he should have to use the guy's bathroom. The reason we don't have boys using the girl's bathroom is not because of superficial stuff like boys having shorter hair or whatever. It's because they have male parts and most girls don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as boys. Why should this kids rights come before theirs?

Really? I have an 8 year old and she was using the bathroom and there a little boy who could not wait for the boys bathroom so they sent him into the girls. It was no big deal and I would not have known except my daughter is friends with this little boy and got in trouble for playing in the sink with him and getting water all over the floor. I think adults make a bigger deal about this than kids.

[Ramona]

Y'know, it really doesn't matter that some folks don't think she should be allowed to use the bathroom for her gender ~ because it ain't up to you. Those who are all OMG THINK OF THE CHILDRENS can just pack it up and go home because it's none of yer business. Isn't that awesome? :mrgreen:

Seriously. Why do people think they get a say in someone else's gender identity?

[valsa]

This thread makes me so sad.

Agreed.

Many, many, MANY trans people have stated that they knew what gender they were (and that their bodies didn't match up to that gender) around the time Coy's parents say she started self-identifying as a girl. I see no reason not to trust them on that.

As a lesbian, there were certainly signs of my non-heteronormative sexuality at around 5 or 6 years old so it doesn't surprise me that trans children recognize their true gender at that age or even earlier.

[Patsy]

Or you could, you know, actually try to provide useful information - that's always an option.

Shhh, shhh, shhhhhh.

Personally, I am genuinely curious about at what age, how long etc.. you ( or anyone else with experience with this issue ) - would think is appropriate in order to move forward with having a young child identified as the opposite gender of what they were born with. If I phrased that wrong, I apologize.

And, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=young+transgender

If your child is named Molly and wants to switch to Mark and you notify the school of this - you can't just switch back to Molly a few months later.

Why not?

If you buy your kid gender specific clothes and toys you can't change that 3 months later (unless you have a lot of money ).

Or unless you didn't throw the old clothes out immediately.

And to stop being bitchy now: there are no procedures done on six-year-olds that I have heard of.

My understanding, others please jump in!: The earliest kids get started is puberty-blockers at 12-15, which are reversible. Starting on hormones and having surgeries at age 18 are not reversible, but I have never heard of an under-18 having surgeries. I think there has been controversy about hormonal treatment of under-18s here in Aus (may have only been about puberty-blocking hormones, though -- someone else recall?), but to get the right prescriptions and doctor's orders for an adult, there are standards that have been developed in order to make sure that some adult will not make an irreversible decision only to regret it 5-10 years later. So I assume doctors would have to be pretty sure, and sure in relation to previous studies on "how to tell if they'll change their mind", before they could order any sort of medical intervention for a child.

(I do want to add here that although the standards used do seem to have value, preventing later regrets, they are pretty gender-normative -- like, you no longer have to wear dresses every single day to convince your doctors you're really female, but there are still a lot of sexist assumptions and hoops to jump through.)

The only concern about getting "stuck", to me, is that the parents are so into getting the media in, having her photographed and identified, etc. On reflection, though, I know I'd sure as shit prefer be a cis kid presenting like Coy and have parents who said "ah well obviously you're trans!", than be trans kid presenting like Coy and have parents who beat me, kicked me out, harrassed me or killed me.

[nelliebelle1197]

The family apparently pulled ALL the kids from school to homeschool them based on the bathroom lawsuit. On the one hand that could show a great deal of family loyalty, or concern about the siblings being harassed due to the media attention - but it seems to me that pulling Coy out of school, and pulling her siblings out of school is just going to make all the kids feel horrible ( assuming they were enjoying school before, and it appears that they were ). I think the mom is coming across as being more concerned about making a statement than about actually putting her child's interests first. I'm sure the lawsuit could have been done without all of the media focus on Coy.

I could see if she was already being harassed or bullied at school than promoting the case in the media and homeschooling could help. But all she seems to be doing is removing all her children from a mostly positive social experience in order to get more publicity.

I don't know this woman, but I do have to say I do know that if there is a lawsuit, then it is the lawyer approving all press appearances. That is actually what I do for a living- part of my job is to direct media advocacy for a nonprofit law firm. We are very effective in using the press to force APs to the table and settle cases without court. It is a common strategy for lawyers, especially if they aren't going to make money on the case (we don't have to worry about that since we don't charge fee for service but we often find the media forces quick settlement, which is what our very poor clients need rather than 2 years of litigation). Lawyers are also guided by discrete state bar ethical considerations when it comes to using the media for client benefit. Her lawyer is approving and is part of any media going on and if the lawyer or advocacy group was not part of the strategy, it would not be happening. Anytime you see somebody with a lawsuit ginning up press there is a strategic reason for it -unless the lawyer is a rare fool and most of them are not, despite stereotypes.

[rward]

Or you could, you know, actually try to provide useful information - that's always an option.

Personally, I am genuinely curious about at what age, how long etc.. you ( or anyone else with experience with this issue ) - would think is appropriate in order to move forward with having a young child identified as the opposite gender of what they were born with. If I phrased that wrong, I apologize.

I understand what you are saying about it being different than just a phase like other little kid phases and obsessions - I get that. But it really isn't as simple as saying "well they identify as x now, if they change their mind in a few months, that's fine" . This kid in question is lucky to have a very gender neutral name. If your child is named Molly and wants to switch to Mark and you notify the school of this - you can't just switch back to Molly a few months later. If you buy your kid gender specific clothes and toys you can't change that 3 months later (unless you have a lot of money ). If you make sure your kid signs up for Brownies you don't switch it to cub scouts a couple months later and then back again. Especially since the kids involved seem to want to go by extremely stereotypical "girl" or "boy" roles/games/clothing I don't think you can just easily switch back and forth in their interactions outside the home all that easily.

So you would want to know it isn't a phase. What, in your opinion, would be a good amount of time, or distinguishing features or an age where it would make sense to pursue this if your child wanted to ?

And yeah, lots of little kids will go on obsessive bents and freak out if people contradict them - so you do need some sort of basis to start from. I'm not saying this particular six year old isn't a girl, I'm asking, from your view, how would a parent know when it is a real enough thing to actually look into making it "official" ? I understand talking to a psychologist might help - but really little kids are extremely difficult in any sort of counseling because their reality shifts constantly.

My daughter is into Pokemon, but she's 6, what does she know? I won't buy her Pokemon stuff for her birthday, because she won't be into it in 3 months and that's just a waste of money. I'll buy her Barbie instead. She won't like it, but at least I won't be wasting money on my child.

I'm not trans, I'm about as cis as you get, but I am disabled and I've had quite enough of abled people telling me how I feel, what medications I don't need and what things I really could do if I wanted to. Is it really so hard to take people at their word? Really?

And to the person who thinks the girls will see Coy's penis in the bathroom and make fun of her/be traumatized, I am almost 40 years old. In that time, 4 decades of time, I have never seen another person's genitals in a public restroom. For all I know, every other person in the bathroom with me had a penis. If you've been seeing people's genitals in the women's restroom, you are doing something wrong. Very, very wrong.

[Rosa]

I am so glad I send my child to hippie school, where a kid can change their preferred nickname (for gender reasons, or "I feel weird about my ethnic name" reasons, or to experiment with a less babyish nickname) and the teachers will just go ahead and use the kid's preferred name unless and until they change their mind. Because kids are humans who get to decide on their own identities.

[Savoring Samsara]

Okay and what if they let him use the girl's bathroom and one day another girl sees that he has a penis and balls? Don't you think he would get made fun of just as bad?

What school did you go to? I can't remember a single time in all my years of education that I ever saw another child's genitals in the bathroom.

Edit: and I see that I have been beaten to the punch on this comment many times. Sorry for the repetitiveness...

[2xx1xy1JD]

I have several transgendered friends, including one that was in her 50s when she made the transformation, giving up a place in a very prominent family and a high power career. Especially with the latter friend, the most recurring theme I hear is that the little boy knew he was a little girl from a VERY early age. I think homeschooling her is much less disruptive than making her use a unisex restroom. They are celebrating her gender identity and compromising that is not healthy for the child. I bet if they are supportive of the transition, they have qualified therapists at the ready to help with these decisions.

I understand that adults who are transgender often say that they identified as being different from their birth sex very early on.

I'm wondering, though, what the literature says about how often young children go through a phase of identifying with the other gender, and grow up to be cis-gender? I certainly didn't feel particularly girly as a child, preferred the sand box and climbing trees etc. - but that started to change a bit when the hormones kicked in around age 14. [i'm still not particularly girly, but I'm much more comfortable in my body than I was growing up.]

Is there a distinction to be made between adults being flexible with gender identification and roles in children, vs. making definitive "my young child is trans-gender, dammit" statements.

[Mama Mia]

My daughter is into Pokemon, but she's 6, what does she know? I won't buy her Pokemon stuff for her birthday, because she won't be into it in 3 months and that's just a waste of money. I'll buy her Barbie instead. She won't like it, but at least I won't be wasting money on my child.

I'm not trans, I'm about as cis as you get, but I am disabled and I've had quite enough of abled people telling me how I feel, what medications I don't need and what things I really could do if I wanted to. Is it really so hard to take people at their word? Really?

And to the person who thinks the girls will see Coy's penis in the bathroom and make fun of her/be traumatized, I am almost 40 years old. In that time, 4 decades of time, I have never seen another person's genitals in a public restroom. For all I know, every other person in the bathroom with me had a penis. If you've been seeing people's genitals in the women's restroom, you are doing something wrong. Very, very wrong.

Oh for heaven's sake - obviously having your name and gender changed on your school records and changing it back , and then maybe changing it again is NOT the same as switching from pokeman cards to hotwheels.

And she isn't presenting as a fairly gender neutral child who wears jeans and t-shirts and likes to read and do art projects - she wants to be a very very stereotypical "girl" in all those areas, and rejects anything "boyish" according to the articles - so switching all those things is more drastic than switching from one toy obsession to another.

I am just wondering if there is some sort of generally accepted timeline for when / what ages/ what sorts of behaviors / duration might be a guideline for when a major change like this might be made with very, very young children. That isn't saying she shouldn't pursue it, it is just asking a damn question because it isn't a subject most people are going to have a lot of information on.

Also, why would drugs to surpress puberty be given so late ? At 12-15 most children would be at least well into puberty, most girls have their period by then - wouldn't waiting so long defeat the purpose ?

I understand the family's lawyer might think all the media attention is fantastic - but that doesn't mean it is fantastic for the actual child involved. And I still think pulling all the kids from school, when no one has stated there has been any harassment at all- is conveying to Coy that there is something "wrong" with her far more than having to use the bathroom in the office.

[dawbs]

Not to derail, but w/ all the 'I never saw genitalia in the bathroom' discussion...

I sure did.

Because the school thought that privacy was an adult privilege and that kids would cause problems in the bathroom...so only 1/3 of the stalls in the girl's bathrooms had doors and you had limited time to pee...so if you weren't first in line, you peed while staring at your classmates.

ANd under 2nd grade, it didn't have a door at ALL, it was a single toilet with a partition that you had to manage to keep a foot sticking out of at all times so no one would walk in--no door between the toilet and the hallway full of kids.

asshole school

[Savoring Samsara]

I'm wondering, though, what the literature says about how often young children go through a phase of identifying with the other gender, and grow up to be cis-gender? I certainly didn't feel particularly girly as a child, preferred the sand box and climbing trees etc. - but that started to change a bit when the hormones kicked in around age 14. [i'm still not particularly girly, but I'm much more comfortable in my body than I was growing up.]

From what my trans friends have told me, it wasn't just that they felt less feminine than other girls or less masculine than other boys, or that their interests didn't quite match up with others boys or girls, or that they preferred the toys intended for the other gender. Most of them seem to have, as one of their earliest memories, a fundamental understanding that they really ARE the other gender and that their body did not match who they were really meant to be. I'm a cis woman, and while I was a tomboy as a kid even to the point of preferring to take on masculine roles in pretend play, I don't recall ever thinking that I was actually meant to be a boy. Looking back, my discomfort with taking on feminine roles was actually about not wanting to take on the weak role of the princess who passively needed to be rescued or whatever. When I started to encounter girl protagonists in books, I became more comfortable identifying as a girl character in my play, because I realized I could portray a lady knight instead of just a damsel in distress. (This is why it's so incredibly important to make sure that girls have strong role models in the media they consume...but I digress.)

edit: confused sex with gender in one sentence, corrected

[ILoveJellybeans]

Ive never been in a school that didnt have cubicle doors on the toilets. In my school, even from being 5, we had cubicles with doors on, and I worked in a daycare for about a year, and they had cubicles in the bathrooms as well for the kids who were old enough to use the toilet. I think the majority of schools do. I think there are rules about stuff like that now, cause children have a right to privacy.

[Burris]

I know it sounds harsh, but I don't think a six-year-old trans-girl should be “out†at school. At home, yes. At school, no. She's not old enough to deal with the blow-back, yet, and I suspect this bathroom thing is just the latest crap Coy has had to endure because of her nature.

She shouldn't have to kick the closet open, as it were, until she's older and can psychologically defend herself adequately.

No; she doesn't feel like a boy, but she has the genitalia of one for now. This is a thing most of her classmates, and alas some of their parents, simply do not understand or refuse to accept.

It sucks, but she should hide out until she's strong enough to advocate for herself and sure enough of her own identity to defend it against all attacks.

[CoatRack]

This is a thing most of her classmates, and alas some of their parents, simply do not understand or refuse to accept.

And you know this how?

[Conuly]

Not to derail, but w/ all the 'I never saw genitalia in the bathroom' discussion...

I sure did.

Because the school thought that privacy was an adult privilege and that kids would cause problems in the bathroom...so only 1/3 of the stalls in the girl's bathrooms had doors and you had limited time to pee...so if you weren't first in line, you peed while staring at your classmates.

ANd under 2nd grade, it didn't have a door at ALL, it was a single toilet with a partition that you had to manage to keep a foot sticking out of at all times so no one would walk in--no door between the toilet and the hallway full of kids.

asshole school

My mother's elementary school was like that. I know this, because she has had nightmares about being trapped in the bathroom there. My elementary school had doors, but the bathroom for first grade and younger was unisex, boys on this side and girls on the other. And they made us choose a partner to go with if we had to pee, on the dubious grounds that having another kid there would somehow make us less likely to misbehave. Given that I had no friends and didn't want to stand in front of the class telling Rachel or Rebecca or Lindsey to come pee with me, you can imagine how often I went to the bathroom during elementary school!

Come to think of it, my second high school didn't have doors on the toilets in the changing room. The stalls faced each other. It was "grab somebody to stand in the doorway so the person opposite can't see you" there. Real fun. The nurses office was next door, so I just peed there if I really had to.

As far as "how do you tell the school your kid changed their name again?", I don't see why you should have to. As a kid, I was enrolled under my full name. First day of school I corrected my teacher to Connie and that was that. In high school, many of my classmates had two names, a Chinese or Korean name they were registered under, and an English name that they actually expected to use in school. First day of school they'd tell the teacher what name to use, one that was often very different from the one they were listed as, and the teacher would just make a note. It's not all that hard. (And there really is no law that kids have to line up in boys and girls groups. I don't know why teachers do that, but I know a few who are no longer doing it, and this might be part of the reason.)

Scouts? Not all scouting groups are single sex. Pick a coed group or do another activity like swimming or some coed sport instead. At that age, they're all mixed sex sports.

That doesn't mean you let your kid go to school in a spacesuit or a princess outfit now does it?

Is it weather appropriate? Because if it is, the answer to that question is "hell, yeah!" Also funky wigs, cat ears, mismatched socks, and hair they did themselves. The only rule is that if the school has uniforms, you have to wait until a non uniform day.

As far as boy parts go, we are all the same in a closed door stall. Assuming your school has such things, of course.

I know it sounds harsh, but I don't think a six-year-old trans-girl should be “out†at school. At home, yes. At school, no. She's not old enough to deal with the blow-back, yet, and I suspect this bathroom thing is just the latest crap Coy has had to endure because of her nature.

It's got to be easier to live as your preferred gender before you hit puberty than after. If the school hadn't made this ruling, nobody would have ever known what's under Coy's pants.

[Burris]

And you know this how?

Are you kidding?

[CoatRack]

Are you kidding?

You claimed Coy's classmates and their parents weren't okay with this. Since you seemed to have personal information on her situation I was wondering how you knew.

[Burris]

It's got to be easier to live as your preferred gender before you hit puberty than after. If the school hadn't made this ruling, nobody would have ever known what's under Coy's pants.

In an elementary school? She makes one friend, tells said friend about her orientation, they have a falling out, and then everyone knows what's in her pants.

Doesn't matter where you live or what country you come from - kids...the rumor doesn't even have to be true and it takes a day before everyone has heard it.

[Burris]

You claimed Coy's classmates and their parents weren't okay with this. Since you seemed to have personal information on her situation I was wondering how you knew.

LOL! Seriously - trans bullying has been in the news for a long time. It doesn't take a genius, a psychic, or a friend of the family to puzzle this one out.

Coy was using the girls' restroom for a long time before the school changed directions. Why do you suppose that happened?