Transgender 6 year old banned from bathroom

[veron1que]

Plenty of men sit down to pee at home. My husband sits to pee (at home, pees against trees just fine outside).

It's quicker to not bother dropping pants, and if people get casual about bathroom hygiene then a urinal which is obviously NOT made for sitting is... better for later users, I guess. (But hey, you're talking to someone who grew up with squat toilets and prefers THEM for similar reasons!! :))

FWIW plenty of portable toilets (the sort you see at street fairs and concerts) in the US are effectively unisex, only one person can enter, but they have a little urinal on the wall next to the main toilet seat (both routed to the same non-flushing tank underneath of course). Speaking of the seat though, of course there are the "hoverers" who really OUGHT to be using a squat toilet considering how much they pee all over the seat (some of these people frequent the women's bathroom at my office too, which is just... yuck)

On the other hand, I worked in a building where there used to be no women's bathrooms at all and so they just converted the men's bathroom on every other floor. The one on the main floor, for whatever reason they left the urinals in it, but had converted them to PLANTERS. I have no idea why anyone thought to do that... maybe to make it really obvious it's not unisex so they don't spook anyone? very wtf.

LOL @ the Planters.

Yeah I don't understand the point of urinals...and I'm too am confused by the sprayers in women's restrooms. I personally squat over public toilets but I've never peed on the seat, and I also check to make sure I haven't. Quite frankly if you don't have the muscle to squat properly, please don't :? No one wants to sit where you've peed.

[Maggie Mae]

According the man in my life, sometimes the "winky" will hit the water and that's gross.

[Minerva]

According the man in my life, sometimes the "winky" will hit the water and that's gross.

Um...I don't know how to say this without it being really weird...but the water level in a toilet is usually not that high...

On a less awkward note, I grew up in a household where everyone had to sit to pee or they'd be responsible for cleaning around the toilet that week. And there's a pretty stark difference between the floor around a sitting-only toilet and a toilet that's been peed in from a standing position, so the one or two times someone tried to get away with it, it never took long before the boys were confronted and the culprit 'fessed up.

On a note that doesn't involve urine at all, the only profs I've had tell me gender is only a social construct were radical feminists who could very well have believed that trans people don't exist. The way I see it: most of what society knows about gender is a social construct. The way we dress, the things we like, how aggressive we are, how good with children we are, how good at math we are...the concept that any of these things are tied to gender is a social construct. But there must be something not socially constructed under there because, well, trans* people exist. And they exist all over the gender expression spectrum just like cis people do. There are butch trans women, and effeminate trans men, and there are people who identify as genderqueer and/or non-binary and you'd never know unless they told you their preferred prounouns because otherwise they fit right into one binary gender's box. And they exist as gender studies students who know as well as you or I that nothing about our preferences, our personality or the way we present ourselves is a direct result of gender. So something about gender is real and inside of us, but it's its own thing, as opposed to being correlated with all these personality traits like the Duggars would have you believe.

[already hungover]

Forgive my ignorance as you know, a be-vagina'd person, but why can men not just sit down to pee? Is it just quicker to use a urinal? Iirc it is the norm for men to sit down to pee in Germany and other countries. Certainly in the UK I've encountered gender-neutral bathrooms with no urinals and nobody seemed to mind.

According to this insane rant by Pastor Steven Anderson, real manly men pee, I mean, piss standing up. No gender-neutral bathrooms for him!

[FloraDoraDolly]

I would not enter any bathroom that the pissing preacher is currently using or has recently used. Too much nasty!!!

[Minerva]

I would not enter any bathroom that the pissing preacher is currently using or has recently used. Too much nasty!!!

It's too bad his wife is called to be a doormat. He'd be scrubbing his own damn bathroom if he was my husband.

ETA and now FJ is advertising catheters to me.

[already hungover]

I would not enter any bathroom that the pissing preacher is currently using or has recently used. Too much nasty!!!

He totally strikes me as the kind of guy who stands way too close to others as they use the urinal and maybe compares junk.

[cjsmom]

Sorry but I think a 6 year old is too young to make a decision like that because at that age they really don't know what they want. Sure they can say "I want to be this, I want to be that" but lots of children that age say outrageous things like they want to be an astronaut or a cowboy or a princess. That doesn't mean you let your kid go to school in a spacesuit or a princess outfit now does it? This kid is a boy and I think he should have to use the guy's bathroom. The reason we don't have boys using the girl's bathroom is not because of superficial stuff like boys having shorter hair or whatever. It's because they have male parts and most girls don't feel comfortable using the same bathroom as boys. Why should this kids rights come before theirs?

I teach high school now, but my training in education was all at the early childhood level. I know plenty of boys who came to school in early grades with one or more fingernails painted "just like Mommy's". I know plenty of girls who came to school wearing clothes that were similar to what Dad wore to work. They absolutely knew what they wanted, and came to school with the confidence to know that they'd be accepted for who they are.

I am aware that I have applied gender labels to children, which is a little ironic considering the thread, but I want to make the point that children at the age of 6 do know what they want and do know how to express their personality with clothing. My son has loved wearing graphic tees since he was about 4 - still wears them today - probably will wear them all his life. He may also have grown out of that phase (similar to how he no longer needs to get out the Thomas and Friends train track every.waking.moment.of.every.day, but at 18 months, he knew exactly what he wanted!). Either is okay.

I haven't personally educated students who openly questioned their gender identity with me, but I do know that I have a classroom where all students are welcome, and I work hard to make sure my school is a welcoming, safe place for all youth. Whether I'm parenting or teaching, my job is to accept, welcome, and nurture each child as the wonderful individuals that they are.

Edited: riffles.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I teach high school now, but my training in education was all at the early childhood level. I know plenty of boys who came to school in early grades with one or more fingernails painted "just like Mommy's". I know plenty of girls who came to school wearing clothes that were similar to what Dad wore to work. They absolutely knew what they wanted, and came to school with the confidence to know that they'd be accepted for who they are.

I am aware that I have applied gender labels to children, which is a little ironic considering the thread, but I want to make the point that children at the age of 6 do know what they want and do know how to express their personality with clothing. My son has loved wearing graphic tees since he was about 4 - still wears them today - probably will wear them all his life. He may also have grown out of that phase (similar to how he no longer needs to get out the Thomas and Friends train track every.waking.moment.of.every.day, but at 18 months, he knew exactly what he wanted!). Either is okay.

I haven't personally educated students who openly questioned their gender identity with me, but I do know that I have a classroom where all students are welcome, and I work hard to make sure my school is a welcoming, safe place for all youth. Whether I'm parenting or teaching, my job is to accept, welcome, and nurture each child as the wonderful individuals that they are.

Edited: riffles.

Yes, kids know what they want in terms of clothing or toys, but I don't think that's what most of the posters here mean when they say Coy is too young to know what she wants. They're thinking more in terms of the future, not the present and they're thinking of issues beyond clothes, toys, and even more controversial areas such as switching pronouns or using a different bathroom. A child of six might express a wish to "have my boy body changed into a girl body", but this child is much too young to comprehend the complexities of gender reassignment surgery. It's like when a 4-year-old boy says he wants to marry his mommy when he grows up-- he has no idea what that really means. Even among older kids, you often hear elementary school aged girls say that boys are yucky and vice versa. At that age, the idea of kissing a member of the opposite sex is disgusting. But by the time they reach puberty and the hormones kick in, most of them change their minds.

Speaking of changing one's mind, I found this article on Gender Identity Disorder: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/

Relevant quote:

As there have been no large studies to date on the course of GID, and, in particular, no studies focusing on causal factors for GID, the evidence level for the various etiological models that have been proposed is generally low. Most models of these disorders assume that they result from a complex biopsychosocial interaction. Only 2.5% to 20% of all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence are the initial manifestation of irreversible transsexualism. The current state of research on this subject does not allow any valid diagnostic parameters to be identified with which one could reliably predict whether the manifestations of GID will persist, i.e., whether transsexualism will develop with certainty or, at least, a high degree of probability.

Translation: Very few studies have been done on these kids and no one can predict which ones will want gender reassignment surgery as adults, but only a small percentage do. This article dates back to 2008, but I don't think too many other studies have been done since then. There wouldn't be enough time to do the kinds of longitudinal studies that would give more solid answers to some of these questions. I do know that Gender Identity Disorder will be reclassified as Gender Dysphoria in the DSM-V. Of course, we don't know if Coy falls under either classification.

[veron1que]

He totally strikes me as the kind of guy who stands way too close to others as they use the urinal and maybe compares junk.

Yet these men exist...I once found a medical discussion board where a guy complained about getting pee spots on his scrubs and was asking for advice on how to avoid the last drip spillage post-urinal. When it was suggested he use toilet paper and wipe, he replied that it wasn't manly to do so.

I don't understand the manly bs, you'd rather urinate on your clothes than use a piece of toilet paper? I feel the same about the sitting/standing thing.

[Patsy]

When it was suggested he use toilet paper and wipe, he replied that it wasn't manly to do so.

:angry-banghead:

I don't understand the manly bs, you'd rather urinate on your clothes than use a piece of toilet paper? I feel the same about the sitting/standing thing.

Yeah. A FJer (forgot who) once said, "Sitting to pee doesn't make you feel manly? Well kneeling to clean up your piss doesn't make me feel womanly!" Like, jeez, I don't feel EMPOWERED or OPTIMISTIC when I'm showering, I just frigging do it.

[cjsmom]

Yes, kids know what they want in terms of clothing or toys, but I don't think that's what most of the posters here mean when they say Coy is too young to know what she wants. They're thinking more in terms of the future, not the present and they're thinking of issues beyond clothes, toys, and even more controversial areas such as switching pronouns or using a different bathroom. A child of six might express a wish to "have my boy body changed into a girl body", but this child is much too young to comprehend the complexities of gender reassignment surgery. It's like when a 4-year-old boy says he wants to marry his mommy when he grows up-- he has no idea what that really means. Even among older kids, you often hear elementary school aged girls say that boys are yucky and vice versa. At that age, the idea of kissing a member of the opposite sex is disgusting. But by the time they reach puberty and the hormones kick in, most of them change their minds.

Speaking of changing one's mind, I found this article on Gender Identity Disorder: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/

Relevant quote:

Translation: Very few studies have been done on these kids and no one can predict which ones will want gender reassignment surgery as adults, but only a small percentage do. This article dates back to 2008, but I don't think too many other studies have been done since then. There wouldn't be enough time to do the kinds of longitudinal studies that would give more solid answers to some of these questions. I do know that Gender Identity Disorder will be reclassified as Gender Dysphoria in the DSM-V. Of course, we don't know if Coy falls under either classification.

So we (general societal we) can understand that a child at 6 may have different wants and needs from a teen or an adult. Which is why most therapists with knowledge of gender identity issues will encourage parents to not assign a gender to their child.

I really think Coy needs to express gender the way she needs to at the moment. If she feels later on that her gender is fluid, that's fine too. Whatever the DSM-IV says or DSM-V will say, this is a young child who needs support, acceptance, and love. Looks like she's getting all that.

[Feberin]

So we (general societal we) can understand that a child at 6 may have different wants and needs from a teen or an adult. Which is why most therapists with knowledge of gender identity issues will encourage parents to not assign a gender to their child.

I really think Coy needs to express gender the way she needs to at the moment. If she feels later on that her gender is fluid, that's fine too. Whatever the DSM-IV says or DSM-V will say, this is a young child who needs support, acceptance, and love. Looks like she's getting all that.

Do you think she will be supported if after all this fuss she decides that she is a he? I feel like with the mother already thinking about surgery and going so public with the case worries me that it wouldn't be easy for Coy to let's say hit puberty and say that he isn't transgendered after all.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I found this article from New York Magazine:

http://nymag.com/news/features/transgen ... en-2012-6/

Food for thought in many ways.

I'm not sure how I would deal with the question of puberty-delaying drugs or hormone treatments for a child.

On one hand, if puberty resulted in a child eventually becoming more comfortable in their body, there's the possibility of avoiding a life of discomfort and/or medical/surgical treatments that are invasive and somewhat risky.

On the other hand, you could have a child who becomes even more distressed at puberty and possibly increase the future need for surgery, or even trigger suicidal behavior.

We actually had to make some choices about Lupron (the puberty blocking drug) for our daughter, due to precocious puberty. Our initial decision was to try it. Our daughter's experience was not good. First, it triggered a period, which was exactly what we had hoped to avoid. Second, it triggered insane mood swings. Our middle daughter has always been rock-solid emotionally - she never cried, was never moody, and was always just really steady. The Lupron changed that, and overnight we had a child who would suddenly tantrum and cry out of nowhere. SHE recognized that her crying was completely out of character, and it scared her. The medication was extremely expensive (luckily, we had a drug plan to help), and it's also so thick that it requires a large-gauge needle, so the injections are painful. After 2 treatments, our daughter refused to have any more.

I suppose that leads to another approach/question - at what point is it the child's decision, and not the parents'?

[cjsmom]

Do you think she will be supported if after all this fuss she decides that she is a he? I feel like with the mother already thinking about surgery and going so public with the case worries me that it wouldn't be easy for Coy to let's say hit puberty and say that he isn't transgendered after all.

I'm hoping both Coy and Mom will be supported. Personally, I would rather the mother did not go public with her child in this way. I am a parent of a special needs child, and the idea of going to the media over some of the things that have come up as barriers to participation is not something I would consider.

That being said, Coy's mom is on a completely different journey with her child than I am with mine. It's really easy to talk about parenting when you haven't really been there - even from experienced professionals, I still face assumptions and judgment about my role as my son's parent. I just hope Coy is kept at the centre of any decision that is made. I want Coy to lead a full and happy life on his/her/their own terms, regardless of which gender label is assigned.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I found this article from New York Magazine:

http://nymag.com/news/features/transgen ... en-2012-6/

Food for thought in many ways.

I'm not sure how I would deal with the question of puberty-delaying drugs or hormone treatments for a child.

On one hand, if puberty resulted in a child eventually becoming more comfortable in their body, there's the possibility of avoiding a life of discomfort and/or medical/surgical treatments that are invasive and somewhat risky.

On the other hand, you could have a child who becomes even more distressed at puberty and possibly increase the future need for surgery, or even trigger suicidal behavior.

We actually had to make some choices about Lupron (the puberty blocking drug) for our daughter, due to precocious puberty. Our initial decision was to try it. Our daughter's experience was not good. First, it triggered a period, which was exactly what we had hoped to avoid. Second, it triggered insane mood swings. Our middle daughter has always been rock-solid emotionally - she never cried, was never moody, and was always just really steady. The Lupron changed that, and overnight we had a child who would suddenly tantrum and cry out of nowhere. SHE recognized that her crying was completely out of character, and it scared her. The medication was extremely expensive (luckily, we had a drug plan to help), and it's also so thick that it requires a large-gauge needle, so the injections are painful. After 2 treatments, our daughter refused to have any more.

I suppose that leads to another approach/question - at what point is it the child's decision, and not the parents'?

Interesting article. I do think it was too biased in favor of giving kids the puberty blockers. The author didn't present any downside or mention any side effects like the ones your daughter suffered through. There also wasn't much medical or scientific data beyond "it's fine, if the kid changes his/her mind, we stop the blockers and everything is OK."

[Mama Mia]

That was an interesting article. I agree that it seemed to really gloss over any side effects from the puberty blockers. I would be suspicious of bias about any article that states a medication strong enough to stop puberty had no possible down sides. I'm sure they wouldn't think of saying that no one ever has side effects from birth control pills ( for example ), so it seems a little shady that they paint such a glowing picture of these hormones - especially used on such young children.

On the other hand, if someone was 100% sure they wanted to permanently switch ( sorry for the awkward wording ) -- it would seem to make sense to do the blockers to prevent development.

Very complicated.

[the 4th survivor]

a thread in which the 4th survivor struggles with the concept that children have thoughts and feelings

I get that totally, it's just that what you want and reality don't always mix ya know? Anyways I really don't care what grown ups do with their bodies. I respect other people's choice to do what they want as long as they do the same for me. My concern is with this kid possibly being brainwashed by his parents into thinking he's a girl. No way I believe a 6 year knows that doctors do sex change operations. At that age a doctor should be known as the nice man you go to for medicine when you get sick, not the guy that hacks your privates off and gives you different ones. I don't believe he came up with that on his own.

[yewchapel]

I get that totally, it's just that what you want and reality don't always mix ya know? Anyways I really don't care what grown ups do with their bodies. I respect other people's choice to do what they want as long as they do the same for me. My concern is with this kid possibly being brainwashed by his parents into thinking he's a girl. No way I believe a 6 year knows that doctors do sex change operations. At that age a doctor should be known as the nice man you go to for medicine when you get sick, not the guy that hacks your privates off and gives you different ones. I don't believe he came up with that on his own.

1) Coy is a girl and 2) gender reassignment surgery isn't about 'hacking your privates off and giving you different ones', it's simply reshaping the external genitalia. Again, you show your ignorance.

[Full enough quiver]

I sort of get what the 4 th survivor is saying. Choosing your gender is a pretty big decision to make at 6. Most people don't have to make that choice. Their gender matches their biological sex. It sounds like Coy has some gender identity differences for sure, and if it were my kid I would want to love and encourage him/her (English seriously needs gender nuetral pronouns) to be whoever they feel they are in their heart. So what if a year or two down the road, Coy decides she's a boy after all? In the meantime, it won't kill anyone to use feminine pronouns and let her use the girls room. The parents are choosing to respect the way she sees herself now, even though that may change. Thats why little kids don't get gender reassignment surgery. They wait until they're old enough to make a permanent decision. I think for some people, gender identity can be very fluid. Why do we have to slap a label on anyone, anyway? Maybe the kid is trans, maybe not. Why can't she just dress how she wants and use whatever bathroom she's comfortable with (this is where gender nuetral, all stall bathrooms would be handy). Being a hetero, cis person, I really don't know what it's like to deal with gender issues, and I'm sure the parents are new to this kind of thing, and are doing the best they can.

[Gil]

I get that totally, it's just that what you want and reality don't always mix ya know? Anyways I really don't care what grown ups do with their bodies. I respect other people's choice to do what they want as long as they do the same for me. My concern is with this kid possibly being brainwashed by his parents into thinking he's a girl. No way I believe a 6 year knows that doctors do sex change operations. At that age a doctor should be known as the nice man you go to for medicine when you get sick, not the guy that hacks your privates off and gives you different ones. I don't believe he came up with that on his own.

Sure you do. As evidenced by your decision that her expressed thoughts and feelings are irrelevant and going out of your way to disrespect them.

Coy didn't say anything about "hacking privates off." If the first thing you think about a six-year-old child is the status of her genitalia, you're pretty gross.

[the 4th survivor]

Sure you do. As evidenced by your decision that her expressed thoughts and feelings are irrelevant and going out of your way to disrespect them.

Coy didn't say anything about "hacking privates off." If the first thing you think about a six-year-old child is the status of her genitalia, you're pretty gross.

Sorry but in this situation his thoughts and feelings kind of are irrelevant. He's a boy. As the song lyrics go, "You can't always get what you want".

Do you know how to read? He said he wanted to know when the doctor was going to get rid of his boy parts and give him girl parts. No way I believe a 6 year old knows on his own that doctors give sex change operations.

[AddieBelle]

Seriously, fourth survivor? How can you say HER thoughts and feelings don't matter. What if you were told you could no longer be whatever your gender is. I am pretty sure it wouldn't be such a non issue if it were your gender in question.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry but in this situation his thoughts and feelings kind of are irrelevant. He's a boy. As the song lyrics go, "You can't always get what you want".

Do you know how to read? He said he wanted to know when the doctor was going to get rid of his boy parts and give him girl parts. No way I believe a 6 year old knows on his own that doctors give sex change operations.

Underneath the bridge, there lived a terrible, ugly. one-eyed troll.... :roll:

[Gil]

Sorry but in this situation his thoughts and feelings kind of are irrelevant. He's a boy. As the song lyrics go, "You can't always get what you want".

Do you know how to read? He said he wanted to know when the doctor was going to get rid of his boy parts and give him girl parts. No way I believe a 6 year old knows on his own that doctors give sex change operations.