Dillards 49: Dull Dillards Dulling

[BabyBottlePop]

It really pisses me off that the Tudors tv show has Henry as a brunette, when the Tudors were known for their red hair. I refuse to watch the show for that reason. 

Apprebtly people used to believe red hair occurred if you were conceived when your mom was on her period.

[libgirl2]

18 hours ago, Mela99 said:

This brings me up to an interesting discussion point about the Tudor era. Which of Henry the 8ths wives got the most screwed over by him and by history?

Katherine of Aragon. She did nothing wrong except not produce a male heir that lived. She was sent here to marry Arthur and he dies. Her position was uncertain. Henry VII strung her along. She had very little money and had to sell some of her possessions. He dies and Henry VIII sees her as his princess and marries her. All those still births and miscarriages.... Henry strays one too many times and decides he wants to put her away. The husband that she adored no longer wants her, he also makes her life miserable. She can't see her daughter, she loses her position as queen, not to mention seeing Henry turn from Catholicism.

She dies lonely, save for a few faithful, but without the lights of her life, Mary and Henry. She loved him to the end and in a letter to him said Lastly, I make this vow, that mine eyes desire you above all things.

[libgirl2]

13 minutes ago, BabyBottlePop said:

It really pisses me off that the Tudors tv show has Henry as a brunette, when the Tudors were known for their red hair. I refuse to watch the show for that reason. 

Apprebtly people used to believe red hair occurred if you were conceived when your mom was on her period.

I also had a hard time with several things. First they completely omitted a sister, Margaret, who's granddaughter was Mary queen of Scots. Then I thought the costumes, while gorgeous were not authentic. Finally, Henry really never got fat (actually he was obese). Still it was fun to watch. 

[PennySycamore]

@FluffySnowball,  TCM recently showed all three Sissi films.  Alas, I did not watch them as I had no idea what they were about.  They also had a box set of the films in the TCM Shop.  Maybe I should add that to my collection.

@SweetJuly, the Sissi films are not 70 years old, but 60ish. The first one came out 63 years ago in 1955.  Just because a film is old doesn't mean that it needs to be remade.  If there is something that they left out, though, because of the censorship standards of the time,  yes, remake away!

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

@FluffySnowball,  TCM recently showed all three Sissi films.  Alas, I did not watch them as I had no idea what they were about.  They also had a box set of the films in the TCM Shop.  Maybe I should add that to my collection.

@SweetJuly, the Sissi films are not 70 years old, but 60ish. The first one came out 63 years ago in 1955.  Just because a film is old doesn't mean that it needs to be remade.  If there is something that they left out, though, because of the censorship standards of the time,  yes, remake away!

I saw most of the first one on TCM. Gorgeous movie and Romy Schneider was luminous. 

[HermioneSparrow]

Sissi was just like any other Wittelsbach... Mentally unstable, bulimic, anorexic, kind of a bully to her kids (except her precious snowflake Marie Valerie), didn't liked her husband very much, had low body image, etc. 

Like I said The Wittelsbachs had a long story of mental illnesses and were very interesting.

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I like how all of you know so much about the Tudor dynasty. I just read a book recently that touched some parts of it but I don't know much. Did you guys learn this at school or is it just your own interest?

I should read more into it.

I’m in the states, where we don’t always even adequately cover our own history. So absolutely personal interest for me. 

4 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I think I learned more from @VelociRapture's post than I did in school about the Tudors. I only remember Henry and Anne Boleyn, and that's mostly from watching The Other Boleyn girl.  

I should find a book on them to read. 

True story - I took a history course on the Reformation and Renaissance my senior year of college. The Professor’s speciality was in German history, so she fully admitted her knowledge was lacking in that area. After I answered a question or two in specific detail she told me to feel free to chime in with information at any point during her lectures. It was kind of awesome and I may have privately geeked out a bit. 

[Glasgowghirl]

16 hours ago, Georgiana said:

I also have to go with Kitty Howard. She was essentially a child forced to marry a fat old man who smelled terribly and likely repulsed her.  It's pretty understandable that she would go after a handsome man her own age, especially since she needed to conceive a child and even at the time people wondered if Henry wasn't the source of his own problems in that regard.   Her only sin was having more beauty than sense, though she might have matured into a reasonable woman if given the chance.  

If you've never read his work, I HIGHLY recommend Robert K. Massie's books on the downfall of Imperial Russia. Massie is also the father of a hemophiliac child, and the compassion and insight he provides to Nicholas, Alexandra, and Alexei is incredibly unique and really humanizes them.  

He's also a great writer.  His Catherine the Great biography is amazing as well.  

Thanks will do, I find Russian History interesting, I may do my dissertation on Russia. Nicholas had good intentions but he was weak and he still wanted to have complete rule. Alexandra being German and her involving Rasputin in government matters was their downfall. The murder of Rasputin was too late to save the family.

If Nicholas had done what his cousin George V and distanced himself from the German connections, changing the family name to Windsor was a smart move. George did turn down allowing the family to move to Britain, he feared revolution happening in Britain, he was devastated when he learned of their deaths but he had his own family to protect.

[HarleyQuinn]

The only specific History class I took in high school was WWII History, otherwise it was just general US History or World History.

*I had to come up for air after diving into the AD rabbit hole from another thread*

[singsingsing]

omg The Tudors.

I watched a few episodes. Then I started reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel, and I just couldn't anymore (let's just say I preferred Wolf Hall). But I actually didn't dislike the show as much as I thought I would. It was kind of fun and some of the acting was really good (Catherine of Aragon was fantastic). 

That said, just from the episodes I watched, I had so many issues:

-Henry VIII looked nothing like Henry VIII. I don't care how hot what's-his-name, the actor who played him, is supposed to be. Like if you had set out to cast someone who looked AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE like the actual Henry VIII, it would have been him. Henry was a huge man - even before he became obese, he was very tall, large and athletic. He had red or strawberry blond hair. And by the time he married Anne Boleyn, he was in his 40s.

-I don't even really care that much about the anachronisms - I know it's supposed to be a bodice ripper/soap opera in a setting that vaguely resembles Tudor England, not a historically accurate portrayal, and I'm pretty sure its creators fully admitted that, which I respect - but Henry did in fact have two (surviving) sisters, and by combining them they eliminated the entire Stuart dynasty, which I find hilarious. Also, his younger sister Mary married the King of France (not Portugal, as I think was the case in the show), and although she looks like she's in her 30s in the show, she was actually 18 when she married him. And he was like 50, not 150 as he appeared to be in the show, though he wasn't very healthy and died within months (probably not from being suffocated by his wife with a pillow, though). Also, Mary probably wasn't banging Charles Brandon on a boat on the way to her wedding, but I can't say that for certain!

-Charles Brandon looked like a character from Twilight or something, I mean what the heck. You should've seen the beard on the real Charles Brandon. Too bad The Tudors wasn't made in like 2016, because his beard would've been all the rage by then.

-Henry VIII probably was not banging everything that moved. He was really more of a serial monogamist. His grandpa Edward IV was the sex addict.

Has anyone watched the mini series they made of Wolf Hall? I've been meaning to. The casting looks pretty good, at least.

[Icea]

My favorite dramatization of Henry VIII is the two part miniseries from around 2003 with Ray Winstone as Henry VIII and Helena Bonham Carter as Anne Boleyn. Assumpta Serna plays Catherine of Aragorn which gave me a positive surprise since I've only seen her in Sharpe where she was brilliant.

I highly reccomend it to anyone who's interested in the Tudors, Winstone and Bonham Carter are perfect for the parts.

[Carm_88]

The Tudors was just plain bad. They had people that they wanted to cast in the roles for sexy purposes and that meant that everything else could piss off. 

Which of Henry's wives got the most screwed? Definitely Catherine Howard. She was a cog in the Howard wheel, they wanted to take the power from the Seymours and that meant, throwing the kid at old King Hal. I feel bad for all his wives, none of them got what they wanted. In the end Henry didn't even get what he wanted, he had one sickly son. The Tudor Dynasty died out. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I  never watched Wolf Hall but I seem to remember Mark Rylance being excited that it was most historically accurate than The Other Boleyn Girl, which he was also in. 

[libgirl2]

21 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

omg The Tudors.

I watched a few episodes. Then I started reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel, and I just couldn't anymore (let's just say I preferred Wolf Hall). But I actually didn't dislike the show as much as I thought I would. It was kind of fun and some of the acting was really good (Catherine of Aragon was fantastic). 

That said, just from the episodes I watched, I had so many issues:

-Henry VIII looked nothing like Henry VIII. I don't care how hot what's-his-name, the actor who played him, is supposed to be. Like if you had set out to cast someone who looked AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE like the actual Henry VIII, it would have been him. Henry was a huge man - even before he became obese, he was very tall, large and athletic. He had red or strawberry blond hair. And by the time he married Anne Boleyn, he was in his 40s.

-I don't even really care that much about the anachronisms - I know it's supposed to be a bodice ripper/soap opera in a setting that vaguely resembles Tudor England, not a historically accurate portrayal, and I'm pretty sure its creators fully admitted that, which I respect - but Henry did in fact have two (surviving) sisters, and by combining them they eliminated the entire Stuart dynasty, which I find hilarious. Also, his younger sister Mary married the King of France (not Portugal, as I think was the case in the show), and although she looks like she's in her 30s in the show, she was actually 18 when she married him. And he was like 50, not 150 as he appeared to be in the show, though he wasn't very healthy and died within months (probably not from being suffocated by his wife with a pillow, though). Also, Mary probably wasn't banging Charles Brandon on a boat on the way to her wedding, but I can't say that for certain!

-Charles Brandon looked like a character from Twilight or something, I mean what the heck. You should've seen the beard on the real Charles Brandon. Too bad The Tudors wasn't made in like 2016, because his beard would've been all the rage by then.

-Henry VIII probably was not banging everything that moved. He was really more of a serial monogamist. His grandpa Edward IV was the sex addict.

Has anyone watched the mini series they made of Wolf Hall? I've been meaning to. The casting looking pretty good, at least.

Yes, they eliminated the Stuarts. 

Catherine of Aragon was also a red head and not dark haired. 

Did you ever see Keith Michell in the Six Wives of Henry VIII. When I think Henry, his is the first image that comes to mind. 

I agree that Henry VIII didn't have as many mistresses as most of the kings before and after him and from other countries. I heard him described as a horrible romantic always looking for that ideal woman. He adored his mother and I think he was looking for her in his wives (in addition to a son). 

25 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

omg The Tudors.

I watched a few episodes. Then I started reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel, and I just couldn't anymore (let's just say I preferred Wolf Hall). But I actually didn't dislike the show as much as I thought I would. It was kind of fun and some of the acting was really good (Catherine of Aragon was fantastic). 

That said, just from the episodes I watched, I had so many issues:

-Henry VIII looked nothing like Henry VIII. I don't care how hot what's-his-name, the actor who played him, is supposed to be. Like if you had set out to cast someone who looked AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE like the actual Henry VIII, it would have been him. Henry was a huge man - even before he became obese, he was very tall, large and athletic. He had red or strawberry blond hair. And by the time he married Anne Boleyn, he was in his 40s.

-I don't even really care that much about the anachronisms - I know it's supposed to be a bodice ripper/soap opera in a setting that vaguely resembles Tudor England, not a historically accurate portrayal, and I'm pretty sure its creators fully admitted that, which I respect - but Henry did in fact have two (surviving) sisters, and by combining them they eliminated the entire Stuart dynasty, which I find hilarious. Also, his younger sister Mary married the King of France (not Portugal, as I think was the case in the show), and although she looks like she's in her 30s in the show, she was actually 18 when she married him. And he was like 50, not 150 as he appeared to be in the show, though he wasn't very healthy and died within months (probably not from being suffocated by his wife with a pillow, though). Also, Mary probably wasn't banging Charles Brandon on a boat on the way to her wedding, but I can't say that for certain!

-Charles Brandon looked like a character from Twilight or something, I mean what the heck. You should've seen the beard on the real Charles Brandon. Too bad The Tudors wasn't made in like 2016, because his beard would've been all the rage by then.

-Henry VIII probably was not banging everything that moved. He was really more of a serial monogamist. His grandpa Edward IV was the sex addict.

Has anyone watched the mini series they made of Wolf Hall? I've been meaning to. The casting looking pretty good, at least.

And Wolf Hall is excellent. I highly recommend it! 

[singsingsing]

I tend to think Henry VIII suffered from a syndrome I've noticed in a lot of men, where he idolizes a woman he's attracted to and thinks the sun rises and sets for her and she can do no wrong, and then when some time passes and he gets to know her better and realizes that she is, in fact, a flawed human being, he becomes totally disenchanted and almost disgusted, and angry at the woman in question as those she deceived him somehow.

His panic to produce an heir definitely had a lot to do with his actions, but it's worth it to remember that these were also human beings with personalities, quirks and foibles, and Henry does seem to have been impractical and romantic in many aspects of his life (especially when compared to his father, who probably dreamed of running away to become an accountant).

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Sissi was just like any other Wittelsbach... Mentally unstable, bulimic, anorexic, kind of a bully to her kids (except her precious snowflake Marie Valerie), didn't liked her husband very much, had low body image, etc. 

Like I said The Wittelsbachs had a long story of mental illnesses and were very interesting.

The movie made her seem so saintly, I even have a book about her that my parents got my when they were in Germany that is full of praise.... and then I read more about her! 

[Jenn The Heathen]

I watched The Tudors and enjoyed it for what it was- highly fictionalized history.  I remember being annoyed with the missing sister.  HER DESCENDANTS ARE KIND OF IMPORTANT TO THE FUTURE OF THE MONARCHY!  Also, I remember getting to the last season and asking “Where is fat Henry?” several times.  I kept expecting to start a new episode and they’d have thrown the fat suit on the actor, but nope.

 

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

I watched The Tudors and enjoyed it for what it was- highly fictionalized history.  I remember being annoyed with the missing sister.  HER DESCENDANTS ARE KIND OF IMPORTANT TO THE FUTURE OF THE MONARCHY!  Also, I remember getting to the last season and asking “Where is fat Henry?” several times.  I kept expecting to start a new episode and they’d have thrown the fat suit on the actor, but nope.

 

I was also curious to see how they would "fatten up" the actor. Not done! 

[Crazy Enough to Join]

You said for years you wanted an adult duggar to get off the show and make their own life decisions. That's what Jill is doing. You may find her politics and religion hateful, and her missionary work silly and harmful, but at least neither her parents or headship seem to be controlling her. Unlike her siblings, she is free to make all her own stupid choices. Sure Derrick seems like an absentee father and husband, but that just gives Jill more ability to make her own choices.

Personally,  I think Jeremy controls Jinger every move even to include number of children he allows her and treats her like a child. You may like Jinger's new persona, but she didn't choose it, Jeremy did. Jinger is still not free, imo.  (The fact that Jeremy chose Ben as a friend, a younger and compliant person, makes me think Jeremy like to be the alpha in all his relationships.)

Jessa isn't controlled by her headship, so yay. But she's still very controlled by her parents' ideology in my opinion. Having babies is working for her, lots of attention, and I think she's competing with Joy to see who can top their mom's fertility record. Jinger and Jill are fairly obviously out of the running there. Even though Ben and Jessa seem like way more fun parents than Jill and Derrick, if Jill only has two (same number of kids in Derrick's family so I'm sure he's cool with it), Jill's kids will get a better growing up experience just because of the numbers.

 

 

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

You said for years you wanted an adult duggar to get off the show and make their own life decisions. That's what Jill is doing. You may find her politics and religion hateful, and her missionary work silly and harmful, but at least neither her parents or headship seem to be controlling her. Unlike her siblings, she is free to make all her own stupid choices. Sure Derrick seems like an absentee father and husband, but that just gives Jill more ability to make her own choices.

Personally,  I think Jeremy controls Jinger every move even to include number of children he allows her and treats her like a child. You may like Jinger's new persona, but she didn't choose it, Jeremy did. Jinger is still not free, imo.  (The fact that Jeremy chose Ben as a friend, a younger and compliant person, makes me think Jeremy like to be the alpha in all his relationships.)

Jessa isn't controlled by her headship, so yay. But she's still very controlled by her parents' ideology in my opinion. Having babies is working for her, lots of attention, and I think she's competing with Joy to see who can top their mom's fertility record. Jinger and Jill are fairly obviously out of the running there. Even though Ben and Jessa seem like way more fun parents than Jill and Derrick, if Jill only has two (same number of kids in Derrick's family so I'm sure he's cool with it), Jill's kids will get a better growing up experience just because of the numbers.

Huh? Where's the evidence that Jill and Jessa aren't being controlled by their husbands? Especially Jill - you say she's 'making her own life decisions', but how? Derick was the one who said that he decided that his family was no longer going to take part in the show. That sure doesn't sound like Jill freely making her own life decisions to me.

[Carm_88]

@Crazy Enough to Join How do you know that Derick isn't in control of Jill? Where do you see the break from the headship? He got himself and his family booted off the show and tried to say that they decided to not go back on it. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Icea said:

My favorite dramatization of Henry VIII is the two part miniseries from around 2003 with Ray Winstone as Henry VIII and Helena Bonham Carter as Anne Boleyn. Assumpta Serna plays Catherine of Aragorn which gave me a positive surprise since I've only seen her in Sharpe where she was brilliant.

I highly reccomend it to anyone who's interested in the Tudors, Winstone and Bonham Carter are perfect for the parts.

Emily Blunt was in this as well. She played Catherine Howard.

 

1 minute ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

You said for years you wanted an adult duggar to get off the show and make their own life decisions. That's what Jill is doing. You may find her politics and religion hateful, and her missionary work silly and harmful, but at least neither her parents or headship seem to be controlling her. Unlike her siblings, she is free to make all her own stupid choices. Sure Derrick seems like an absentee father and husband, but that just gives Jill more ability to make her own choices.

Personally,  I think Jeremy controls Jinger every move even to include number of children he allows her and treats her like a child. You may like Jinger's new persona, but she didn't choose it, Jeremy did. Jinger is still not free, imo.  (The fact that Jeremy chose Ben as a friend, a younger and compliant person, makes me think Jeremy like to be the alpha in all his relationships.)

Jessa isn't controlled by her headship, so yay. But she's still very controlled by her parents' ideology in my opinion. Having babies is working for her, lots of attention, and I think she's competing with Joy to see who can top their mom's fertility record. Jinger and Jill are fairly obviously out of the running there. Even though Ben and Jessa seem like way more fun parents than Jill and Derrick, if Jill only has two (same number of kids in Derrick's family so I'm sure he's cool with it), Jill's kids will get a better growing up experience just because of the numbers.

 

 

With all due respect, I think it’s a massive assumption to say that Jill’s husband and parents are no longer making decisions for her. It’s possible that’s true, but I haven’t seen any compelling evidence to support that assertion so far. Is there anything specific that makes you think this?

[justoneoftwo]

Jill has not indicated she will stop.  Further she hasn't done anything that isn't approved of by Derrick.  So how is she more free then Jinger?  I agree that being free to make your own choices may not be something that looks like what people want it to (its not even likely to look similar) but I don't see how you can assume Jill is making her own choices.  Can you elaborate?  

[Crazy Enough to Join]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

Jill has not indicated she will stop.  Further she hasn't done anything that isn't approved of by Derrick.  So how is she more free then Jinger?  I agree that being free to make your own choices may not be something that looks like what people want it to (its not even likely to look similar) but I don't see how you can assume Jill is making her own choices.  Can you elaborate?  

Agreed to making one own's choices looking different. And, of course, we can't know for sure. But Derrick's ideology as spouted on twitter etc. is all about missions and political ideology and that kind of thing. He seems to care less what Jill does as far as mothering/clothing/work (unlike the Duggars who have a specific ideology about what women wear, birth, work, educate etc.). I think he would approve of whatever as far as Jill being independent. Jill is already giving speeches (probably lame ones) to college students. If she wanted to go to college, I see Derrick being like sure, whatever, as long as it doesn't mean I have to change my sons' diapers. If she wanted to send her boys to school, I think Derrick would only check to make sure the school agreed with his politics, but be totally cool otherwise, not pressure his wife to homeschool or isolate. They really are not isolated at all, hanging out with college students and Muslims and people from other countries etc.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

Agreed to making one own's choices looking different. And, of course, we can't know for sure. But Derrick's ideology as spouted on twitter etc. is all about missions and political ideology and that kind of thing. He seems to care less what Jill does as far as mothering/clothing/work (unlike the Duggars who have a specific ideology about what women wear, birth, work, educate etc.). I think he would approve of whatever as far as Jill being independent. Jill is already giving speeches (probably lame ones) to college students. If she wanted to go to college, I see Derrick being like sure, whatever, as long as it doesn't mean I have to change my sons' diapers. If she wanted to send her boys to school, I think Derrick would only check to make sure the school agreed with his politics, but be totally cool otherwise, not pressure his wife to homeschool or isolate. They really are not isolated at all, hanging out with college students and Muslims and people from other countries etc.

I can see your point I suppose, although I disagree completely.  I have never heard Jill say anything which indicated she wanted to give speeches to college students.  She is doing it now, just when Derrick is ministering to college students.  It seems to me that everything she posts about is part of his "mission."  And he specifically posted about not needing to be skirts only, so he was on board with that.  What we know Jill wanted to do was be a midwife, she isn't doing that.  Its farther from his "mission."  I don't see her making her own choices at all.  I do agree it would be hard to tell though.