Melanie Maxwell gave birth

[Funky Chicken]

Gardenvarietycitizen, the reason it triggered me is not because of the timing of the speculation but that it happens at all. It does bother me. It feels like an attack on women from where I'm sitting, because it's just another reason to not feel good enough for no good reason. I've had problems expressing this before in other threads when I ran into the same feelings (with the same horrible result of saying things that make other women feel not good enough for no good reason :?).

Really, though, I think the problem here is that I had to get all offended and preachy about it and shove my botheredness all up in people's snark thread. Bad move, and I should have learned my lesson by now. I wish I was better at expressing myself with these issues, because I feel very strongly and I do believe I have a valid point somewhere under all the BS. Ahem, :violin:

Why would someone feel "not good enough" if they needed a section because the baby was too big to deliver naturally? And why would it be an attack on women to speculate that this was the reason?

[ladidah]

I looked like shit after my section and I didn't even labour. Definately respect her not wanting a camera in her face.

I looked much the same after my "easy," med-free, the-baby-all-but-swam-out water birth. (Not claiming any special birthing virtues here; I lucked out with an unusually easy labor and an ebil hospital that had a tub available.) Giving birth is hard work in the best of circumstances. I'm rather glad there are precious few photographs documenting how I looked in those earliest memorable moments, like the one where I nearly passed out when the nurse helped me get out of bed for the first time.

From all I've heard, recovery from a typical C-section is often even more difficult than recovery from a typical vaginal delivery, so I can see why Melanie might want the published photos to focus on the baby (who looks beautiful and healthy, by the way). I wish them the best and hope that Melanie gets lots of postpartum support from her family, including her husband.

[OddlyAmused]

They want sons for bearing arms(and Bibles and votes in this case) and daughters for bearing sons ;)

Well, everyone who isn't them is essentially the equivalent of the Huns in their minds. :D

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Gardenvarietycitizen, the reason it triggered me is not because of the timing of the speculation but that it happens at all. It does bother me. It feels like an attack on women from where I'm sitting, because it's just another reason to not feel good enough for no good reason. I've had problems expressing this before in other threads when I ran into the same feelings (with the same horrible result of saying things that make other women feel not good enough for no good reason :?).

Really, though, I think the problem here is that I had to get all offended and preachy about it and shove my botheredness all up in people's snark thread. Bad move, and I should have learned my lesson by now. I wish I was better at expressing myself with these issues, because I feel very strongly and I do believe I have a valid point somewhere under all the BS. Ahem, :violin:

I hear ya. I'm sensitive myself to various ideas of "you're not doing it right, as a woman" (though as someone who didn't have kids I can't talk about that area, but goodness knows there's 301289346 areas where the shaming happens, just, as a woman - welcome to the patriarchy).

It's just that, this woman did have a C-section, for whatever reason, so thinking "I wonder why that was, maybe she is small" seems different to me than similar speculation of "oh, she's small, surely she can't vaginal birth it" speculation beforehand, is all.

Probably plenty of "oh she's too small" people speculated about before birth time are fine (as you point out). Afterward, you're in a very smaller subset of "people who needed C-section birthing" so the math is different. Is all :)

The only thing I can contribute to labor stories is, I was born in the US. I was due in mid August to early September, and I was on the later end, so people teased my mom, "what are you waiting for, Labor Day?? hahahahaha" and she didn't get it, but much later hearing the story *I* found it hilarious.

As it turned out quite a few years my birthday IS on Labor Day and when it is I always make sure to make jokes at work that I am getting a national holiday for my birthday!

[WonderingInWA]

Why would someone feel "not good enough" if they needed a section because the baby was too big to deliver naturally? And why would it be an attack on women to speculate that this was the reason?

Again, I think there is a misconception that delivery via C-section isn't really "giving birth". But it is, absolutely. I just think in some circles it doesn't qualify for the badge of honor. It is indeed a more difficult recovery in most cases since it is major surgery.

And there is sometimes a disappointment on the mother's part. My sister had only planned C-sections and has said she is disappointed that she never experienced labor or birth -- just pre-planned surgery. Giving birth is a personal emotional event for any woman.

[Zoom]

Well I was born with a C-section and my mum and I are plenty close thankyouverymuch. I was born with a planned c-section because I was BADLY breeched (not just ass first but with my legs on either side of my body, my thigh bone wasn't connected to my hip bone when I was born :D ). My mum elected to have my siblings with planned c-sections after that. She was considered small and since she had had a very necessary section she, as a medical professional, decided it wasn't worth the risk to have a vaginal birth. She is also VERY close to my siblings.

I've not given birth and I have not decided if I want a section or a vaginal birth. For me the decision is complicated by the fact that I still have issues from the fact that I was breeched and I am unsure how a pregnancy will affect those issues. I will cross the bridge when I get to it. I will educate myself, just as I have with my other medical issues, both by talking to my doctor/midwife and from other sources. To imply that women who choose to have a section are ill-informed or scared is insulting. They might tell you nosey-nelly that they had a section because they were "small" because they simply don't want the debate over their choice. THEIR. CHOICE. Isn't the lack of choice for women one of the main snarking reasons here? I seem to recall a debate here that Melanie might choose a homebirth and people being horrified about that because of her previously published issues. The c-section discussion started AFTER it had happened, I don't think Melanie was ill-informed in this case, I think it was a medically necessary decision that she and her husband made with their medical professionals and us speculating about WHY isn't saying every woman should have a section. sheesh.

[freejoytoo]

Does anyone else find it weird in the comments, where someone has asked what Bethany thinks of her little sister Stevie has replied 'time will tell'? With anyone else I'd think it was a joke about sibling rivalry but with the Maxwells we know they don't go for humour. It just looks a little odd.

Thanks treemom, I couldn't remember which family it was!

I don't think it matters how a woman gives a birth as long as there is a healthy woman and baby at the end of it.

[alba]

I hear ya. I'm sensitive myself to various ideas of "you're not doing it right, as a woman" (though as someone who didn't have kids I can't talk about that area, but goodness knows there's 301289346 areas where the shaming happens, just, as a woman - welcome to the patriarchy).

This is the crux of it: patriarchy.

Women are conditioned to criticise other women, and where better to do that than in the start of motherhood, the pillar of patriarchal womanhood? Women are also not considered capable of making their own decisions, so their (frequently male) obstetricians have to make those decisions for them. I've read horror stories of women who knew how they wanted the birth to go and, even though it was progressing normally, their doctors insisted on doing it "their way". Obviously not all obstetricians are like that, but I think it's not surprising when you have a society that thinks women can't make decisions about their bodies in a situation where the woman is tired from labour and the doctor has more medical background.

The end goal is a healthy mother and baby. Every woman has the right to choose how she wants that to happen, the right to information and advice to help her make that choice, and the right for that choice to be respected by health care practitioners and her acquaintances.

I'm glad Christina was delivered safely and I wish Melanie the best in her recovery.

[treemom]

Valsa, apparently I haz teh dumb. :lol:

I haven't seen any relevant evidence to change my opinion. Nobody has bothered defending to me why it is okay to speculate on a woman's reproductive health just by looking at her height/bone structure.

Wha? Reproductive health? That phrase means something else to you than it does to me.

So let me boil down my problem with your harping on this every time it comes up. Basically your argument is that language matters and by discussing these potentially false things we hurt women. However in this thread you have insinuated that size issues don't happen in th us to the rate that we think they do, you have clearly said that having a c-section isn't giving birth, (although it appears you recanted) and now you have implied a c-section is tied to reproductive health. YOU have a word and language problem. For all of the idle speculation on whether the size of the baby was the reason for the c-section there really was no judgement there, it was pretty neutral.

However, (and I don't think you realize this) your words are heaped in judgement and implying all sorts of things about women who have had c-sections due to the size of their baby. It is your view that that implies the mother isn't reproductively healthy. And your "not giving birth" comment was clearly sucky as well.

If words matter, you need to do a better job yourself before you handsmack others for pretty neutral phrasing. Because I think you are doing way more harm.

[apple1]

Gardenvarietycitizen, the reason it triggered me is not because of the timing of the speculation but that it happens at all. It does bother me. It feels like an attack on women from where I'm sitting, because it's just another reason to not feel good enough for no good reason. I've had problems expressing this before in other threads when I ran into the same feelings (with the same horrible result of saying things that make other women feel not good enough for no good reason :?).

Really, though, I think the problem here is that I had to get all offended and preachy about it and shove my botheredness all up in people's snark thread. Bad move, and I should have learned my lesson by now. I wish I was better at expressing myself with these issues, because I feel very strongly and I do believe I have a valid point somewhere under all the BS. Ahem, :violin:

Elle had a bunch of posts that sounded like these. I distinctly remember because they motivated me to put her on Foe.

[ricky_ticky]

Does anyone else find it weird in the comments, where someone has asked what Bethany thinks of her little sister Stevie has replied 'time will tell'? With anyone else I'd think it was a joke about sibling rivalry but with the Maxwells we know they don't go for humour. It just looks a little odd.

Thanks treemom, I couldn't remember which family it was!

I don't think it matters how a woman gives a birth as long as there is a healthy woman and baby at the end of it.

Yeah, I noticed that and I thought it was a bit of condescending Steve-O. It's not like the poster was asking for deep psychological insight, just, "Hey, how's Bethany taking it?" The appropriate response would be to say that Bethy thinks the baby's a doll or isn't sure what to think or gave the baby a sloppy kiss and wants to hold her constantly. Something simple and cute would suffice instead of Steve's rather foreboding, cold non-response.

It would be entirely normal for Bethany to ask questions like, "Do we have to keep her?" or "Can we give her back?" since most new siblings will say something like that. But usually it doesn't come out until the baby's been home a few days crying and demanding Mommy's full attention.

Steve is a tool.

[valsa]

Wha? Reproductive health? That phrase means something else to you than it does to me.

So let me boil down my problem with your harping on this every time it comes up. Basically your argument is that language matters and by discussing these potentially false things we hurt women. However in this thread you have insinuated that size issues don't happen in th us to the rate that we think they do, you have clearly said that having a c-section isn't giving birth, (although it appears you recanted) and now you have implied a c-section is tied to reproductive health. YOU have a word and language problem. For all of the idle speculation on whether the size of the baby was the reason for the c-section there really was no judgement there, it was pretty neutral.

However, (and I don't think you realize this) your words are heaped in judgement and implying all sorts of things about women who have had c-sections due to the size of their baby. It is your view that that implies the mother isn't reproductively healthy. And your "not giving birth" comment was clearly sucky as well.

If words matter, you need to do a better job yourself before you handsmack others for pretty neutral phrasing. Because I think you are doing way more harm.

If wondering why someone needed a C-section is speculating about their reproductive health, that implies that women who have C-sections are somehow reproductively unhealthy, which is a hell of a lot more of an attack on women than a simple "Hmmm... maybe she needed a C-section because the baby was too big?"

[Coconut Flan]

If wondering why someone needed a C-section is speculating about their reproductive health, that implies that women who have C-sections are somehow reproductively unhealthy, which is a hell of a lot more of an attack on women than a simple "Hmmm... maybe she needed a C-section because the baby was too big?"

I'll join you in a few choruses of that song.

There but for the grace of an extremely experienced and skilled OB, I'd have had no choice but a section due to average to small baby/small mama.

[MamaJunebug]

freejoytoo wrote:

Does anyone else find it weird in the comments, where someone has asked what Bethany thinks of her little sister Stevie has replied 'time will tell'?

I can't visit the "Gloom to the last drop" Maxwell house blog anymore, so I'm glad freejoytoo brought this over.

Don't know whether to laugh or hurl: The most recent time I heard somebody say "time will tell" it was Mob Wife Ramona Russo, reacting with guarded skepticism to her psychic, who had just said Ramona and her dad would some day be reconciled.

The parallels and incongruities are making me light-headed. At least that's better than the feeling of ennui I get over at the Maxhells' site.

[kpmom]

freejoytoo wrote:

I can't visit the "Gloom to the last drop" Maxwell house blog anymore, so I'm glad freejoytoo brought this over.

Don't know whether to laugh or hurl: The most recent time I heard somebody say "time will tell" it was Mob Wife Ramona Russo, reacting with guarded skepticism to her psychic, who had just said Ramona and her dad would some day be reconciled.

The parallels and incongruities are making me light-headed. At least that's better than the feeling of ennui I get over at the Maxhells' site.

I'm wondering if Bethany hadn't seen the baby yet. They probably hadn't been released from the hospital yet when Steve wrote that. Of course, he could have said that instead of time will tell, but that's Steve. :roll:

[Austin]

Wha? Reproductive health? That phrase means something else to you than it does to me.

So let me boil down my problem with your harping on this every time it comes up. Basically your argument is that language matters and by discussing these potentially false things we hurt women. However in this thread you have insinuated that size issues don't happen in th us to the rate that we think they do, you have clearly said that having a c-section isn't giving birth, (although it appears you recanted) and now you have implied a c-section is tied to reproductive health. YOU have a word and language problem. For all of the idle speculation on whether the size of the baby was the reason for the c-section there really was no judgement there, it was pretty neutral.

However, (and I don't think you realize this) your words are heaped in judgement and implying all sorts of things about women who have had c-sections due to the size of their baby. It is your view that that implies the mother isn't reproductively healthy. And your "not giving birth" comment was clearly sucky as well.

If words matter, you need to do a better job yourself before you handsmack others for pretty neutral phrasing. Because I think you are doing way more harm.

QFT.

I am up to here with self-appointed "childbirth educators". There is an inherent assumption that the rest of us are just too damned stupid to figure it out. Please. So tiresome.

[luckylibrarian]

I also am sick and tired of the know-it-alls who think they need to come on here and lecture the poor stupid wimmins about childbirth, c-sections, and breastfeeding. Quit assuming that all women blindly trust their doctors and are too stupid and easily swayed to do their own research and become knowledgeable about their options.

I almost wish I had a c-section so I could tell them to fuck off. We just got rid of one "Doctors!are!the!ebil!!!11!!!" troll. We don't need another one.

[patsymae]

Okay, I'm new here and maybe missed something:

From the Maxwell blog (that I've learned about from here: "A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."

So what happens and what is so joyous when a woman is born into the world?

[Eclipse]

Yeah, I noticed that and I thought it was a bit of condescending Steve-O. It's not like the poster was asking for deep psychological insight, just, "Hey, how's Bethany taking it?" The appropriate response would be to say that Bethy thinks the baby's a doll or isn't sure what to think or gave the baby a sloppy kiss and wants to hold her constantly. Something simple and cute would suffice instead of Steve's rather foreboding, cold non-response.

It would be entirely normal for Bethany to ask questions like, "Do we have to keep her?" or "Can we give her back?" since most new siblings will say something like that. But usually it doesn't come out until the baby's been home a few days crying and demanding Mommy's full attention.

Steve is a tool.

I am starting t think that Steve is a robot and he doesn't understand normal human reactions, emotions or interactions.

Bethany is what 1, maybe almost 2? She probably doesn't know what to make of the baby. She's cute but you can't do much with her yet so she probably isn't falling to her knees praising Jesus for the new baby, which seems to be the only human reaction that Stevie understands.

[apple1]

Okay, I'm new here and maybe missed something:

From the Maxwell blog (that I've learned about from here: "A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."

So what happens and what is so joyous when a woman is born into the world?

(Disclaimer: I am not a theologian, nor an expert in early Biblical languages).

However - Even I know that many times, the word translated "man" in the KJBible means "human beings", as evidenced by the context. This issue has been addressed by certain gender-neutral Bible versions that are now available.

Anyway - From personal experience (I have 2 daughters, no sons), I would say that quoted verse applied just fine to girls.

Of course, this is probably too "deep" for good old Steve...

[Arete]

(Disclaimer: I am not a theologian, nor an expert in early Biblical languages).

However - Even I know that many times, the word translated "man" in the KJBible means "human beings", as evidenced by the context. This issue has been addressed by certain gender-neutral Bible versions that are now available.

Anyway - From personal experience (I have 2 daughters, no sons), I would say that quoted verse applied just fine to girls.

Of course, this is probably too "deep" for good old Steve...

This issue is even addressed in the KJV Bible. I have in front of me an actual, honest to Jesus KJV Bible opened at the verse in John 16. The verse reads, ...exactly what that idiot said. First reference is to child, second is to the joy of delivering a man. I'm gonna have 2 Pepsis, because trying to get into Steve Maxwell's head gives me an urge for the hard stuff before noon. What apple1 said.

Edited to fix my own reading comprehension.

[Katiebug]

It would be entirely normal for Bethany to ask questions like, "Do we have to keep her?" or "Can we give her back?" since most new siblings will say something like that. But usually it doesn't come out until the baby's been home a few days crying and demanding Mommy's full attention.

So true! I was 5 when my brother was born, and guess what was my response to my dad telling me that I had a little brother? "Send him back - I want a sister!" :lol: As soon as I met him and got to hold him the next day I changed my tune.

I don't think that the Maxwells will love this baby less because she's a girl. By any account they love their granddaughters very much. I just feel sad that she'll have even fewer opportunities to have a real, independent life compared to her male cousin (who will certainly have little in the way of opportunity himself).

[freejoytoo]

It's unfortunate either way. A boy will be raised to be a patriarchal dick and a girl will be taught to be a submissive slave to men and both of them will have rebellion beaten out of them. I really hope they escape the compound.

[Lillybee]

Since the Maxwells haven't updated, I hope that I am wrong, but I hope that Melanie i well and doing fine.