Baby dies After Rabbi/Oral suction Post-Circ {merged}

[aimee]

Rarity or religion aside, anyone putting their mouth on the genitals of an infant should be stopped. Full stop. To me it matters little if it happens in a room full of people or if it's an age old tradition - that really doesn't make it okay.

And since we're whipping out (ahem) personal experience:

- I've had 2 sexual partners who were scarred by infant circumcision (one unable to sustain an erection, one who experienced discomfort just being at "half-mast") and obviously both of them had a whole lot of anger at having had their genitals interfered with.

- 2 sexual partners were circumcised as adults (by choice, obviously) and regretted the procedure because it did dull their sensitivity and in general they felt their sex lives weren't as satisfying as before they were snipped.

- I've had NUMEROUS circumcised sexual partners (and friends, for that matter) who truly resent being circumcised as infants. They've talked about feeling violated, angry that their parents made a permanent decision regarding their sexual "gear" and a whole lot of resentment that society is perfectly okay with the whole set-up.

- I've had 1 sexual partner and 2 friends who have started the process of trying to restore their foreskin as they don't prefer being circumcised and would like to reverse a decision that ought not to have been made in the first place (in their opinion.)

In general I've encountered a great number of men who do consider circumcision a violation of their rights and who have very real feelings of being violated and damaged. They are FURIOUS to hear that it's "just a bit of skin" being removed and FURIOUS that parents were able to force circumcision on them.

Just because male circumcision (I prefer male genital mutilation) is a "minor" thing and not as "severe" as female genital mutilation doesn't make it okay. I believe female genital mutilation is horrifying and should be abolished posthaste and since male circumcision is not without risk and men can feel violated and damaged - why don't we let grown men make decisions regarding their equipment?

[Bella99]

It bothered me when a friend said she'd had her son circumcised solely for cosmetic reasons. I have more understanding for people who truly feel it is God's command or a serious health issue, but at the end of the day it is a mostly unnecessary, permanent alteration to the body of a person too young to consent. I wouldn't pierce Her Maj's ears until she was old enough to ask for it and understand it meant getting needles poked through her ear lobes.

[jaelh]

i am astounded at the the sexxy women (and men?) in this thread who apparently talk with their sexual partners, let alone with their friends, about how they feel about circumcision. I've had sexxy time with... well, (cough) enough and damn it, it never came up once. Let alone "numerous" times, or with a "great number of men".

How do you end up talking about it? Do you ask?

[dawbs]

i am astounded at the the sexxy women (and men?) in this thread who apparently talk with their sexual partners, let alone with their friends, about how they feel about circumcision. I've had sexxy time with... well, (cough) enough and damn it, it never came up once. Let alone "numerous" times, or with a "great number of men".

How do you end up talking about it? Do you ask?

I think it's context of what's normal conversational fodder in your life.

10 years ago, I could count on 1 hand the # of conversations I'd ever had about breastfeeding.

Now...well, now, even in 10 years, I rather expect me to be a *little* militant about breastfeeding, and it to still be a pretty common topic with me. Currently, it's something I talk about often.

If you're iha community where circ. talk is normal and it's a normally debaed topic, I think it could become common. I can say I know the opinions of at least 4 or 6 men that I wasn't in a position of sleeping w/ on circ.

[jaelh]

If you're iha community where circ. talk is normal and it's a normally debaed topic, I think it could become common. I can say I know the opinions of at least 4 or 6 men that I wasn't in a position of sleeping w/ on circ.

I suppose that's the Q - which communities are these? Is circumcision discussion something that comes with the bearing on sons?

[dawbs]

I suppose that's the Q - which communities are these? Is circumcision discussion something that comes with the bearing on sons?

in the virtual world, I've discussed it a lot more since I started procreating.

Somewhat true IRL too.

Other places I can, in my memory, pinpoint where it was discussed = 'sex ed' discussion in college (not sex ed, discussion by all of us about our past 'sex ed') and at a D&D group (I have NO IDEA how that came to be. FWIW, that group was much more open about the discussion from all sides than one would expect. I think it came up because character creation lead to a discussion about tribal rituals ritual in general (related to religion and money and culture and westernization) and 'coming of age' ceremonies and anthropology in general.)

[treemom]

I suppose that's the Q - which communities are these? Is circumcision discussion something that comes with the bearing on sons?

That is when it happened for me. When I was undecided and conflicted and I asked friends, etc. Then i found out about their previous partners, spouses, etc. And for me, what it helped me realize is it would all be ok no matter what I did. If my son grew up to hate me on the basis of his foreskin status, well then there is a whole other relationship issue going on. If he didn't like the choice I made, well that is parenting for you.

What I discovered is that there are lots of different reasons people do and people don't. I felt a lot better when i discovered I wasn't the only secular Jew who was conflicted.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

All other talk aside, I've always found the "but the son will feel strange if he doesn't look like Daddy" argument a bit odd. I mean, there's plenty of other differences in genitalia at that point. Size, hair, etc. Same goes for daughters vs. mom (even where no alterations to anyone is happening).

[Soldier of the One]

I'm late to teh party (as usual) but it suffices to say that these Ultra-Orthodox practices of oral suction are fringe and the most extreme interpretation of Jewish Law. The large majority of religious circumcisions are not performed with this ritual.

What a horrific story, by the way.

[aimee]

i am astounded at the the sexxy women (and men?) in this thread who apparently talk with their sexual partners, let alone with their friends, about how they feel about circumcision. I've had sexxy time with... well, (cough) enough and damn it, it never came up once. Let alone "numerous" times, or with a "great number of men".

How do you end up talking about it? Do you ask?

Penis talk just...happens. I was raised in a hippie-style "free to be you and me" household so frank conversation about sex has always been my norm. Sex comes up rather a lot when you can be open, nonjudgmental and willing to share. I hang out with people who are like-minded so sex (and all that entails) comes up rather a lot. With friends and the people I've shagged. When you're messing around with two (or more) sets of genitals that's pretty intimate stuff so talk about said genitals seems like a natural consequence. Also, I'm pushing 40 so as I get long in the tooth I accumulate more experience and more intimate knowledge of what's going on in a dude's underpants. It's just as easy to talk circumcision as it is to talk about masturbation or birth control or all of those other things we should probably talk about more often!

When it comes to talking about sex I do believe one ought to throw caution to the wind and be bold and fearless! That way you can accumulate intimate knowledge of the secret life of the penis that you can share with the internet :)

ETA: Historically, most of my closest friends are men so I suppose the topic has reared its head (if you'll pardon the pun) far more frequently than it might have if my pals were of the lady variety.

[Maul the Koala]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2051968/?tool=pmcentrez

This is the original Douglas Gairdner study from 1949 that ended routine circumcision in England. He found that an average of 16 infants per year had died as a result from complications from their circumcisions, which works out to be 1 per 6000 procedures. Doctors in the Uk and Wales immediately stopped offering circ to all infant males and the rate dropped to nearly nothing.

Not so much with death/complications, but I've found it interesting that the rates started to decrease with provincial health plans dropping coverage for the procedure. Meaning you were paying out of pocket if you wanted your son circ'd.

Now I will back out of this thread quickly. Adios peoples!

[Deleted03]

I think that the fact that some guys are complaining about it, and that there is some risk to the penis, in addition to the procedure infringing on bodily autonomy, it should be only allowed in adults.

In general I hate the talk about how it's not traumatizing to babies, they will never remember the pain talks. Lost of research have shown that levels of pains in babies is misunderstood.

I remember the great circumcision war on FJ and most of the cases of infections that were brought up happened to grown men. So let them choose what to do with their penis. Considering the possible side effects, I think this is a decision parents should not be allowed to make unless there is a real medical concern in the present.

[MonkeyMomma]

I suppose that's the Q - which communities are these? Is circumcision discussion something that comes with the bearing on sons?

Yeah, since having a boy, I've been astounded at how frequently penises come up in conversation. At least in my circle. First time moms of boys have a million questions/concerns about what's "normal" or not.

[BlackHawk]

Rarity or religion aside, anyone putting their mouth on the genitals of an infant should be stopped. Full stop. To me it matters little if it happens in a room full of people or if it's an age old tradition - that really doesn't make it okay.

And since we're whipping out (ahem) personal experience:

- I've had 2 sexual partners who were scarred by infant circumcision (one unable to sustain an erection, one who experienced discomfort just being at "half-mast") and obviously both of them had a whole lot of anger at having had their genitals interfered with.

- 2 sexual partners were circumcised as adults (by choice, obviously) and regretted the procedure because it did dull their sensitivity and in general they felt their sex lives weren't as satisfying as before they were snipped.

- I've had NUMEROUS circumcised sexual partners (and friends, for that matter) who truly resent being circumcised as infants. They've talked about feeling violated, angry that their parents made a permanent decision regarding their sexual "gear" and a whole lot of resentment that society is perfectly okay with the whole set-up.

- I've had 1 sexual partner and 2 friends who have started the process of trying to restore their foreskin as they don't prefer being circumcised and would like to reverse a decision that ought not to have been made in the first place (in their opinion.)

In general I've encountered a great number of men who do consider circumcision a violation of their rights and who have very real feelings of being violated and damaged. They are FURIOUS to hear that it's "just a bit of skin" being removed and FURIOUS that parents were able to force circumcision on them.

Just because male circumcision (I prefer male genital mutilation) is a "minor" thing and not as "severe" as female genital mutilation doesn't make it okay. I believe female genital mutilation is horrifying and should be abolished posthaste and since male circumcision is not without risk and men can feel violated and damaged - why don't we let grown men make decisions regarding their equipment?

Male Genital mutilation? REALLY? How insane.

Look, I'm a guy and I have never heard a guy lament about his penis in such horrid detail. Seriously. I have many male friends/acquaintances... and even though circumcision has come up among us a lot, not a damn one of them sat there and said how horrible it was they were forced into circ... that their mom's took away their choices.. or any of that. Now, I will say, most of us are not getting our sons circ'd, but that's as far as "anti-circ" goes. It's typically women and mothers I hear talk about circ and they know SO MANY men who are so anti-circ, blah blah blah. I find it very suspicious you have SO MANY men in your life who are so against circ.

I do not think Circ should be done routinely, there is no reason for it really. However, I also don't think Circumcision is anywhere NEAR FGM... to compare the two is rather idiotic, in my opinion.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Male Genital mutilation? REALLY? How insane.

Look, I'm a guy and I have never heard a guy lament about his penis in such horrid detail. Seriously. I have many male friends/acquaintances... and even though circumcision has come up among us a lot, not a damn one of them sat there and said how horrible it was they were forced into circ... that their mom's took away their choices.. or any of that. Now, I will say, most of us are not getting our sons circ'd, but that's as far as "anti-circ" goes. It's typically women and mothers I hear talk about circ and they know SO MANY men who are so anti-circ, blah blah blah. I find it very suspicious you have SO MANY men in your life who are so against circ.

I do not think Circ should be done routinely, there is no reason for it really. However, I also don't think Circumcision is anywhere NEAR FGM... to compare the two is rather idiotic, in my opinion.

I've noticed this too. Its primarily women who are the most passionate about it. I've discussed it with men, both circed and uncirced and they were pretty much "live and let live" about it. I've asked uncirced me what they'd think if they had been as a kid and they truly did not care. I think about it this way. If my mother had had my ears pierced as a baby (which is another cultural thing that parents do that folks have issues with) I too, would not care. There's a risk of infection and such with that as well. It would not have been my choice, its a permanent physical alteration to my body....

My husband is actually REALLY happy he had it done as a baby because he would have had to get it done as an adult when he converted to Judaism. And his take on it is "it still works, I don't have an issue with it. And I enjoy sex just fine thankyouverymuch".

I think what happened to this baby is horrifying and that it really gives a bad bad bad name to all brissim everywhere because people get upset and can possibly think that this represents all Jews. My son's bris was NOTHING like a lot of people claim a circumcision is like. It was quick, over in 30 seconds, and quite frankly as someone above thread said, if he's SO angry at me for having it done as a child, and wants his foreskin restored, i'll pay for the surgery/devices myself if its really that upsetting to him. I don't think it will be.

[BlackHawk]

I've noticed this too. Its primarily women who are the most passionate about it. I've discussed it with men, both circed and uncirced and they were pretty much "live and let live" about it. I've asked uncirced me what they'd think if they had been as a kid and they truly did not care. I think about it this way. If my mother had had my ears pierced as a baby (which is another cultural thing that parents do that folks have issues with) I too, would not care. There's a risk of infection and such with that as well. It would not have been my choice, its a permanent physical alteration to my body....

My husband is actually REALLY happy he had it done as a baby because he would have had to get it done as an adult when he converted to Judaism. And his take on it is "it still works, I don't have an issue with it. And I enjoy sex just fine thankyouverymuch".

I think what happened to this baby is horrifying and that it really gives a bad bad bad name to all brissim everywhere because people get upset and can possibly think that this represents all Jews. My son's bris was NOTHING like a lot of people claim a circumcision is like. It was quick, over in 30 seconds, and quite frankly as someone above thread said, if he's SO angry at me for having it done as a child, and wants his foreskin restored, i'll pay for the surgery/devices myself if its really that upsetting to him. I don't think it will be.

It does give a bad name to Bris... but you can find a horrid example of this type of thing no matter WHERE you look. Every subset of culture has this... Even Christians have shit happens that makes "christians" look bad (think deaths due to pearl training... or really just the Pearls in general). You can't judge a whole community based on the worst of the worst.. you just can't.

I've never met a guy who was SO upset they hated their parents over circ alone. I do know a couple of guys who've tried foreskin restoration, but that was more because their female partner bitched about them not having a foreskin. THEY made it an issue, not the guy.

Anecdotal fun... of all the men I know, between my partner and myself, there are equal number of men circ'd and uncirc'd. And not a damn one of us cares either way.

On the topic of conversions... if you weren't circ'd as a child, and you convert to Judaism, you seriously have to have an honest circ? I always thought you just had to take a bit of blood from the tip of the penis... I didn't know you had to get the full surgery! Wow.

[ilovetchotchkes]

It does give a bad name to Bris... but you can find a horrid example of this type of thing no matter WHERE you look. Every subset of culture has this... Even Christians have shit happens that makes "christians" look bad (think deaths due to pearl training... or really just the Pearls in general). You can't judge a whole community based on the worst of the worst.. you just can't.

I've never met a guy who was SO upset they hated their parents over circ alone. I do know a couple of guys who've tried foreskin restoration, but that was more because their female partner bitched about them not having a foreskin. THEY made it an issue, not the guy.

Anecdotal fun... of all the men I know, between my partner and myself, there are equal number of men circ'd and uncirc'd. And not a damn one of us cares either way.

On the topic of conversions... if you weren't circ'd as a child, and you convert to Judaism, you seriously have to have an honest circ? I always thought you just had to take a bit of blood from the tip of the penis... I didn't know you had to get the full surgery! Wow.

That's if you convert and have it done already, they took a sterile needle and drew a drop of blood from it. IIRC, the rabbi had to send it somewhere, to prove that it was done. (that day is a blur ). His rabbi was VERY relieved to find out he had had it done as a child because if you get it done for religious reasons period, insurance doesn't pay. We had to pay for our son's bris out of pocket even though it was done by an MD.

[Deleted03]

I don't know, it was guys who first talked about the subject and explained the negative consequences and how they thought it should not be done to infants....

Differing experiences I guess.

BTW I saw some documentaries too where a family was interviewed about FGM, and the daughter who was around 20 and had had FGM was like meh I don't care, I think it's still good now and her mom (who also had FGM but changed her mind and could not do it to her 2nd daughter) was totally like you don't know, you've never experienced anything else.

I think it's wrong in terms of bodily autonomy and if there's a minority of men who have problems with it, then you should listen to those who feel they are harmed and make it an adult decision, rather than a parental decision on an infant or a child. Medical secondary effects vary people to people and trauma about something done to you also vary. I tend to think we should listen to those who claim trauma, and re-evaluate our societal decisions regarding it.

[eohiken]

http://foreskin-restoration.net/forum/

there are all these dudes who have issues.

My husband doesn't hate his parents for making that decision, he's very conflicted about it. He definitely feels it wasn't their place to have it done to him, but he also understands that in that time and place, they were making the best decision as they saw it. It still doesn't make it right. The look on his face when he learned about [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer]David Reimer[/link] though, they are almost the same age (or would be, if he wasn't dead)

[BlackHawk]

I don't know, it was guys who first talked about the subject and explained the negative consequences and how they thought it should not be done to infants....

Differing experiences I guess.

BTW I saw some documentaries too where a family was interviewed about FGM, and the daughter who was around 20 and had had FGM was like meh I don't care, I think it's still good now and her mom (who also had FGM but changed her mind and could not do it to her 2nd daughter) was totally like you don't know, you've never experienced anything else.

I think it's wrong in terms of bodily autonomy and if there's a minority of men who have problems with it, then you should listen to those who feel they are harmed and make it an adult decision, rather than a parental decision on an infant or a child. Medical secondary effects vary people to people and trauma about something done to you also vary. I tend to think we should listen to those who claim trauma, and re-evaluate our societal decisions regarding it.

Then we should reevaluate the way we do blood transfusions and organ transplants because of the fringe group of Christians who claim they are the victims of having a stolen soul or whatever because they had a blood transfusion? What about people who claim Rx drugs are evil and thus refuse the give their children Rx or medical care.. should we reevaluate our societal decisions regarding medications? You can't make such a blanket statement on everything like that... you make that statement because you agree with the cause under which this statement was made. It doesn't work like that in the real world.

Personally I won't circ my sons because I don't think it's necessary. However, I don't think it makes men less than men or creates a trauma that they cannot get over.

http://foreskin-restoration.net/forum/

there are all these dudes who have issues.

And if you look at the forum on there that has the most traffic, next to the off topic thread, it's the wife/partner thread. If you look through the threads, and identify several of the largest posters, there are a few men, but a lot of them are women who have a problem with their partner being circ'd.

I'm not saying that NO men have a problem with being Circ'd. I'm not saying all men are happy and excited about it... nor am I saying that no men CARE about circ. I'm saying the people making the loudest fuss are women who decide they have a problem with it, so everyone must. I'll say again, I don't think circ is something we should do routinely. I don't think every boy in the world should be snipped. However, I also don't think the majority of men spend their who lives angry because they were circ'd.

[Conuly]

BTW I saw some documentaries too where a family was interviewed about FGM, and the daughter who was around 20 and had had FGM was like meh I don't care, I think it's still good now and her mom (who also had FGM but changed her mind and could not do it to her 2nd daughter) was totally like you don't know, you've never experienced anything else.

Of course. When guys are having circumcision discussions, they're not just talking about their penises (something which I think most people would want to be happy with) but also about their parents.

As I've said before in other discussions, most people don't really want to say, aloud or just in their heads, "My parents made a mistake, a big one". It's a big load of cognitive dissonance, so of course they accept whatever their parents did. I weight negative comments more heavily because most people aren't going to criticize both their parents and the only way they've ever known their body to work.

Then we should reevaluate the way we do blood transfusions and organ transplants because of the fringe group of Christians who claim they are the victims of having a stolen soul or whatever because they had a blood transfusion?

Nonsense and you know it. Blood transfusions and transplants save lives. Circumcision, even in the most optimistic studies about its usefulness, *maybe* saves a *few* lives many years in the future... but those studies are far from conclusive.

Parents should not be making non-necessary choices about permanent aspects of their children's bodies. Circumcision is not necessary. (Unless it is. If your infant is born with cancer on the foreskin, by all means, you have my blessing to chop it off. But for the rest of us - not necessary!)

However, I don't think it makes men less than men or creates a trauma that they cannot get over.

Wait, wait, wait. Did anybody here say that circumcision makes males "less than men" or that it creates a trauma that nobody, ever can get over? (That'd be pretty impressive given that most people can psychologically get over losing far more important things, like their hands or their feet.)

How did I miss that?

And if I didn't, please keep your argument to yourself until somebody DOES say that. It's no fun to have a conversation if people are just making shit up.

I also don't think the majority of men spend their who lives angry because they were circ'd.

The majority of men worldwide aren't circumcised :)

But seriously, even aside from that, the majority of blind people don't spend their whole lives angry because they're blind, nor because society isn't set up for blind people. Loss of eyesight is probably a bigger deal than loss of foreskin, but when you come right down to it MOST people don't spend their entire lives angry for any reason. What an inordinate waste of energy that would be!

Does "Lots of guys don't seem to have a problem with it all the time" mean "It's all right to do this"? Because I don't think that follows at all. If I stole $80 from my mom's clever hiding spot that she totally forgot about, and she never knew, does that mean it's not theft? Nonsense.

[BlackHawk]

Of course. When guys are having circumcision discussions, they're not just talking about their penises (something which I think most people would want to be happy with) but also about their parents.

As I've said before in other discussions, most people don't really want to say, aloud or just in their heads, "My parents made a mistake, a big one". It's a big load of cognitive dissonance, so of course they accept whatever their parents did. I weight negative comments more heavily because most people aren't going to criticize both their parents and the only way they've ever known their body to work.

Nonsense and you know it. Blood transfusions and transplants save lives. Circumcision, even in the most optimistic studies about its usefulness, *maybe* saves a *few* lives many years in the future... but those studies are far from conclusive.

Parents should not be making non-necessary choices about permanent aspects of their children's bodies. Circumcision is not necessary. (Unless it is. If your infant is born with cancer on the foreskin, by all means, you have my blessing to chop it off. But for the rest of us - not necessary!)

Wait, wait, wait. Did anybody here say that circumcision makes males "less than men" or that it creates a trauma that nobody, ever can get over? (That'd be pretty impressive given that most people can psychologically get over losing far more important things, like their hands or their feet.)

How did I miss that?

And if I didn't, please keep your argument to yourself until somebody DOES say that. It's no fun to have a conversation if people are just making shit up.

The majority of men worldwide aren't circumcised :)

But seriously, even aside from that, the majority of blind people don't spend their whole lives angry because they're blind, nor because society isn't set up for blind people. Loss of eyesight is probably a bigger deal than loss of foreskin, but when you come right down to it MOST people don't spend their entire lives angry for any reason. What an inordinate waste of energy that would be!

Does "Lots of guys don't seem to have a problem with it all the time" mean "It's all right to do this"? Because I don't think that follows at all. If I stole $80 from my mom's clever hiding spot that she totally forgot about, and she never knew, does that mean it's not theft? Nonsense.

If you read the forum linked, there are a few (maybe even several, depending on your definition) stories of people who say circumcision makes men less of a man.

I know the majority of the men worldwide aren't circ'd, but of the men who are, the majority don't sit there and complain.

Look, I agree that circ is not a great idea. I just hate the idea that people seem to spout that every man they know hates being circ'd and complains so much about it. That's bullshit, plain and simple.

As for organ transplants and such, the thing is, the statement was "Medical secondary effects vary people to people and trauma about something done to you also vary. I tend to think we should listen to those who claim trauma, and re-evaluate our societal decisions regarding it." Going off that statement, nothing should EVER be done to children at their parents choice because it may harm them. Especially in the medical world. Kids need cancer treatments... or are thought to need them at times, and that child may have complications, should those treatments not be done because a minority might say that the cancer may or may not have needed a treatment depending on the type/location/stage? You can't make a statement like that, period.

There are a lot of things people don't agree with that are done to children, period. medical, social, gender choices.. it happens. You cannot make a blanket statement about applying all medical procedures to a minority who feel victimized. You cannot.

[eohiken]

I'll remember to mention it to my husband that his opinion about his own personal penis is bullshit.

[Arielkay]

Thank you, Blackhawk. I'm not coming down on one side or the other, but it is good to hear the opinion of a man on this topic.

[Mama Mia]

My husband (circumcised ) said it would be awful if his penis was more sensitive than it already is, it would bug him all day long because he's already conscious of it more than enough.