Baby dies After Rabbi/Oral suction Post-Circ {merged}

[keen23]

With the rates of circumcision plummeting, it is highly likely that won't be your daughter's experience.

Unless of course they are lesbians who do not experiment with the opposite sex at any time in their lives.

Are the rates truly plummeting? Three of my friends (all Catholic if it makes any difference) have had 5 boys between them in the past five years and all of those boys are circumcised. These are pretty progressive, liberal people in the New England area.

[Conuly]

The rates were close to 90% in the 70s. They were around 50% a decade ago. They're down now to less than half the boys born in the US - I've seen numbers as low as 35%.

However, these rates count only those circumcisions done in the hospital. Obviously, then, those who get it done via a mohel aren't counted. So let's assume that the Jewish population isn't counted at all.

Your daughters may encounter some circumcised penises, however it is EXTREMELY unlikely that, like you, all the penises they ever encounter will be circumcised.

Which means that, unlike you and your husband, they'll actually be in a position to know what you may have missed. You certainly are not, and your husband really isn't either because he has no basis of comparison. Even his statement that his penis works fine is based on conjecture - it's never worked any other way! There may be problems he doesn't know about because he doesn't realize that they ARE problems, in the same way that somebody may be extremely hard of hearing or have very bad eyesight and not know it because they think EVERYBODY hears or sees as badly as they do.

[Beeks]

Unless of course they are lesbians who do not experiment with the opposite sex at any time in their lives.

Are the rates truly plummeting? Three of my friends (all Catholic if it makes any difference) have had 5 boys between them in the past five years and all of those boys are circumcised. These are pretty progressive, liberal people in the New England area.

Or unless they're Jews and stay within the tribe! ;-)

I think rates are going down. I know lots of moms from my "mommy groups" whose sons are not circ'd. I do live in a pretty crunchy area though.

[aimee]

Perhaps you need a reading comprehension class. No where did I say that NO MAN is against circ, no where did I say that it's bullshit to think any man doesn't like it. Read a bit better, k?

As for people not talking to me cause I don't respect their feeling... REALLY? How dense of you, really. I don't even feel the need to respond to that, because it's such a ridiculous statement.

I do not deny anyone their feelings. You are projecting bullshit at this point. Read what I wrote, really read it and pay attention to what is said. Then perhaps you can realize what is said is no where near as dramatic as you are trying to make it out to be. People have issues, people have scars... yes, I have read about them, and spoken to a man who had his penis entirely removed due to a botched circ, and his parents were advised to raise him as a girl because of it. Doesn't make a difference to what I've said above.

Each person is allowed to have an opinion, each person is allowed to express their opinion, each person has their own story. No one is denying that. What I am saying, just in simpler terms, is that not every man sits around and laments about their parents choices for their penis as a baby. I would venture to say MOST CIRC'D men do not sit around and lament how horrible their life is because they were circ'd. There are exceptions to every statement, no one is denying that, and those stories can be heart breaking. No where did I say those statements are bullshit, nor those emotions aren't valid.

Aw, you're so cute when you're trying to be clever. Your snark has no snark to it, I'm afraid to say.

At no point have I ever claimed that "every man sits around and laments about their parents choices for their penis as a baby." Nowhere. So, yanno, if anyone needs to read a bit better - it would be you.

On that note I'll make an investment in your future. You mentioned something about schooling so I'm going to quit posting on this topic as I think you need to devote as much time as you can to your studies.

Keep up the incredulity!

[keeperrox]

Considering this map...

http://mgmbill.org/statistics.htm

...I have to wonder if the prevalence of actually knowing someone who talks freely about the state of their penis, or penises they've encountered has to do mostly with geography. I grew up in NJ and currently live in PA, and circumcision never is a topic of conversation, whether I'm talking with childless friends about sex or mommy-friends with male children. It really wasn't until I read a blog post about a botched one that I even realized that this was an issue. It wasn't until FJ that I realized it was an issue on the PB scale.

[Mama Mia]

At our local hospital they don't do circumcisions any more, and it was difficult for my daughter to find a dr. who would do one on her infant son -- probably because the insurance doesn't cover it.

She felt strongly about having it done though, due to the potential infection issues she had heard about.

That map is striking ! We live in California, that would explain the difficulty.

[Conuly]

That is one of the strangest demographic maps of the US I've ever seen. You see lots of patterns in these maps, but usually they go from richer areas to poorer areas, or high-immigration areas to low-immigration areas, that sort of thing. I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic west-to-east split. I wonder what even accounts for that?

[QAF_Rocks]

Odd! I live in California, too, and I had no idea the circumcision rate was so low. The two people I know who have young sons had it done, and this is in the Bay Area, no less.

[Witsec7]

I think children born in military hospitals may have higher rates of circumcision. But truly that map is odd.

[Kelya]

Aw, you're so cute when you're trying to be clever. Your snark has no snark to it, I'm afraid to say.

At no point have I ever claimed that "every man sits around and laments about their parents choices for their penis as a baby." Nowhere. So, yanno, if anyone needs to read a bit better - it would be you.

On that note I'll make an investment in your future. You mentioned something about schooling so I'm going to quit posting on this topic as I think you need to devote as much time as you can to your studies.

Keep up the incredulity!

What is with these bitchy little remarks about people's intelligence? It really doesn't make you look cute or particularly hip or anything, you just end up looking like you can't actually respond to the points raised.

[Mama Mia]

I'm really curious about the reasons for this bizarre state-by-state breakdown.

I wonder if there are any other medical/social/political/religious/birth/demographic trends that break down the same way ?

I also wonder if circumcision medicaid and/or private insurance coverage is on a state-by-state basis ?

Both of my sons were circumcised in the 80's. For one of them medicaid paid for it, for the other they didn't.

[Sinister Rouge]

Back to the op, looks like Bloomberg has finally grown a pair and is speaking out against the practice. The DA is investigating the baby's death.

[treemom]

Considering this map...

http://mgmbill.org/statistics.htm

...I have to wonder if the prevalence of actually knowing someone who talks freely about the state of their penis, or penises they've encountered has to do mostly with geography. I grew up in NJ and currently live in PA, and circumcision never is a topic of conversation, whether I'm talking with childless friends about sex or mommy-friends with male children. It really wasn't until I read a blog post about a botched one that I even realized that this was an issue. It wasn't until FJ that I realized it was an issue on the PB scale.

It became a topic of conversation for me when I was pregnant and my husband said he did not want to do it. I wanted to feel comfortable with that so I did a lot of research and asking questions, it isn't probably going to come up if you go with the status quo because it is more likely something you already feel comfortable about. Or if you go with how the father looks, they are probably comfortable with it.

For me, I had never know anyone uncirced in the biblical way. And certainly no one had ever said anything about it to me. My husband was and he couldnt answer questions I have.

[eohiken]

On any of the mommy forums, the circ board is always the most hostile, even worse than bfing vs bottle or SAHM vs WOHM.

[Conuly]

On any of the mommy forums, the circ board is always the most hostile, even worse than bfing vs bottle or SAHM vs WOHM.

SECOND most hostile subject. You know what's worse? The Santa debate. You take a group of people who are perfectly okay with telling each other they're poisoning their children (formula feeding) or mutilating them (circumcising), people who routinely call change from THEIR form of discipline "abuse" (and that goes both ways - spankers will happily tell non-spankers that they're abusively neglectful) and bring up Santa.

Then watch as they *really* tear each other apart. Is it lying? Is it fantasy? Which is more abusive, to do Santa or to NOT do Santa? OMG.

[Austin]

Another mommy war topic. . . *yawn* :roll:

[Conuly]

I also wonder if circumcision medicaid and/or private insurance coverage is on a state-by-state basis ?

It is, and rates of routine infant circumcision drop dramatically in states where medicaid doesn't cover it.

[nomi]

Two of the men I was sexually involved with had botched circumcision. The one's was so bad that sex was actually painful for him (in a year-long relationship we probably had sex 10 times) and he was very upset that he'd been cut as a baby. He had attempted foreskin restoration but there was NO extra skin to pull on. I really felt bad for him because there was nothing he could do.

The other man I was with had an issue that caused sex to be painful for me. I actually went to the doctor after the first time we had sex because I thought I had some strange things going on inside because it was so very painful. I'd thought things were kind of weird with his package (don't really feel like divulging the information) but it wasn't until a few months into our relationship that I realized exactly what was wrong. When I talked to him about it he got very defensive and told me I was crazy and that the problem was all on me, maybe he was just too big for me or something. I assured him that his was not the biggest I've seen, which I'd had no problems accommodating, and said goodbye.

After being with a man who was uncut I decided I wouldn't do it to my son. My ex and I had knock down, drag out, screaming fights about it. I had never really considered the issue before, it was just something that felt wrong. When he was so insistent about having it done to our son I decided to look up and research exactly what was good/bad because I didn't want to cause my son to have any long-lasting damage (it's cleaner, less disease, etc...) and found that all his talking points were completely false. I showed him the info and he refused to listen. One of the reasons I decided to homebirth was because I was terrified he'd sneak him off to be cut when I was resting. I also refused to let him take him to the doctor for his first check ups because I was scared he'd do it then too, in fact when I took him in for his first two appointments (3 days old and just shy of 2 weeks) they offered to do it in the office right then and there. I said hell no and put his diaper back on.

Don't get me started on my born again jew father.

I had never really talked about penises with people until I found out I was having a boy and until after he was born. After he was born almost every person asked how he was healing from his circumcision. I was disgusted that someone would actually inquire into the health of someone's penis. I don't go up to stranger men and ask them how long theirs is or anything like that, I don't understand why someone would think it's okay to ask a mother a question like that. Oh and then stand there and lecture me about my choice to keep him intact and spew all the BS reasons to do it and that I'm dooming him a sexless life with a filthy diseased penis.

[pomology]

T

Don't get me started on my born again jew father.

I had never really talked about penises with people until I found out I was having a boy and until after he was born. After he was born almost every person asked how he was healing from his circumcision. I was disgusted that someone would actually inquire into the health of someone's penis. I don't go up to stranger men and ask them how long theirs is or anything like that, I don't understand why someone would think it's okay to ask a mother a question like that. Oh and then stand there and lecture me about my choice to keep him intact and spew all the BS reasons to do it and that I'm dooming him a sexless life with a filthy diseased penis.

Do you mean a baal teshuvah? (I'm not trying to correct your wording or anything, just trying to figure out what you mean.

And, I agree, it's pretty horrible that people would lecture you on that kind of decision.

Like, I'm a person who thinks a bris is a really important part of being Jewish and therefore if and when I have sons, they will have a bris. But, how the hell is it my business what anybody else would choose for their baby.

[apple1]

Another mommy war topic. . . *yawn* :roll:

Yes, I agree... although in a previous FJ thread that was derailed on the circ debate, I was told that it was a real issue and NOT a mommy war... IMO definitely a mommy war subject.

[nomi]

Do you mean a baal teshuvah? (I'm not trying to correct your wording or anything, just trying to figure out what you mean.

And, I agree, it's pretty horrible that people would lecture you on that kind of decision.

Like, I'm a person who thinks a bris is a really important part of being Jewish and therefore if and when I have sons, they will have a bris. But, how the hell is it my business what anybody else would choose for their baby.

No, no, he was Born Again (as in converted to christianity) but he was born and raised Jewish. When he came to visit when my son was born he was actually looking for mohels in the area to come out and do it. I was like, WTF dad?! He said I needed to form a covenant with god and that sacrificing my son's foreskin would be a blood offering to him. Again, WTF dad?!

[Kaylee]

It is, and rates of routine infant circumcision drop dramatically in states where medicaid doesn't cover it.

Yep. I know that's one reason it dropped in NC, and I knew a handful of women who were going to have it done until they were told they'd have to pay out of pocket. My sister was on medicaid with all 3 of her children and the only one not circ-ed was the worn born after it stopped being covered.

Our insurance would have covered it when my son was born but we chose not to because I didn't see the point of it and I felt like the risks outweighed the benefit. My husband was sort of on the fence until he looked it up himself and actually watched a video of the procedure, then he was all "oh, hell no".

[keeperrox]

It is, and rates of routine infant circumcision drop dramatically in states where medicaid doesn't cover it.

Yeah, if you follow that link with the map, hover over each state and it tells you if Medicaid covers circumcision.

[Beeks]

Also, this map doesn't show the true circ, rate, right? Only what's done in hospitals? So maybe where it's not covered people don't just get it done at birth, but do it at a doc's office later. There is a doc/mohel near us who does ONLY infant circ and he said he has tons of non-Jewish people who didn't get it done in the hospital for insurance or other reasons and come to him instead when they baby is a few weeks old.

[NurseNell]

Yeah, if you follow that link with the map, hover over each state and it tells you if Medicaid covers circumcision.

Interesting. MN has a 62% circ rate, circ not covered by Medicaid but then TX Medicaid covers circs but only a 50% rate, 48% next door in NM, where Medicaid covers circs. It's really interesting that Wi still has Medicaid covered circs when they had major welfare change several years ago and under Walker, the current governor, so many cuts (not of foreskins :oops: ) have been made. MO seems to be the only red state, with a 76% circ rate, that isn't Medicaid funded. All the other red states are medicaid covered for circs. None of the green states have Medicaid covered circs and have the lowest rates.

MN has a large immigrant population. The Hmong, Karen, Thai, and Somali communities do not circ. Most of the Hispanic community doesn't circ. TX and NM's lower rate of circs, despite Medicaid coverage, might be due to their large Hispanic population.