Baby dies After Rabbi/Oral suction Post-Circ {merged}

[pomology]

No, no, he was Born Again (as in converted to christianity) but he was born and raised Jewish. When he came to visit when my son was born he was actually looking for mohels in the area to come out and do it. I was like, WTF dad?! He said I needed to form a covenant with god and that sacrificing my son's foreskin would be a blood offering to him. Again, WTF dad?!

That makes zero sense to me. Isn't the reason Christianity abandoned circumcision because they thought you could have a covenant with God without it? I don't really, know, but seriously, I agree with your WTF.

[debrand]

Circ. are not covered by medicare in SC and yet over 80% of boys born there have their foreskin removed. That is a really high number and makes me wonder what the reasons are.

Directly to the north, NC has a lower circum rate. It makes me wonder what is different about the two states.

[Deleted03]

Interesting. MN has a 62% circ rate, circ not covered by Medicaid but then TX Medicaid covers circs but only a 50% rate, 48% next door in NM, where Medicaid covers circs. It's really interesting that Wi still has Medicaid covered circs when they had major welfare change several years ago and under Walker, the current governor, so many cuts (not of foreskins :oops: ) have been made. MO seems to be the only red state, with a 76% circ rate, that isn't Medicaid funded. All the other red states are medicaid covered for circs. None of the green states have Medicaid covered circs and have the lowest rates.

MN has a large immigrant population. The Hmong, Karen, Thai, and Somali communities do not circ. Most of the Hispanic community doesn't circ. TX and NM's lower rate of circs, despite Medicaid coverage, might be due to their large Hispanic population.

Maybe it's the more important latino population....

[ilovetchotchkes]

That makes zero sense to me. Isn't the reason Christianity abandoned circumcision because they thought you could have a covenant with God without it? I don't really, know, but seriously, I agree with your WTF.

Actually, the reason Christianity abandoned circumcision is because originally, you had to convert to Judaism (and yes, get circumcised as an adult) to convert to Christianity. Paul, no dumb fuck he, realized "hmmm I'm losing potential converts over this". And declared that and the kosher laws unnecessary after he had a vision.

[Kaylee]

Circ. are not covered by medicare in SC and yet over 80% of boys born there have their foreskin removed. That is a really high number and makes me wonder what the reasons are.

Directly to the north, NC has a lower circum rate. It makes me wonder what is different about the two states.

Parts of NC (Asheville, Chapel Hill, Boone) have a lot of progressive/left/crunchy/hippie type people who tend to fall into the natural parenting anti-circ camp, while SC doesn't seem to have that. I think NC also has a higher population of Hispanics, but I am not sure by how much.

[pomology]

Actually, the reason Christianity abandoned circumcision is because originally, you had to convert to Judaism (and yes, get circumcised as an adult) to convert to Christianity. Paul, no dumb fuck he, realized "hmmm I'm losing potential converts over this". And declared that and the kosher laws unnecessary after he had a vision.

Yeah, that makes sense from what I've heard about Paul, but I swear I've heard that he also said something to the effect of circumcising your heart instead?

Also, whatever Paul's reasons were, I assume Christians since that time have reinterpreted them to not seem like opportunists? Like, do you really want to be part of a religion that dropped laws because you were losing potential converts? Obviously you're going to come up with some explanation like "Actually that really wasn't necessary because blah blah blah"

I'm trying not to be entirely cynical about this. ;)

[Boogalou]

Actually, the reason Christianity abandoned circumcision is because originally, you had to convert to Judaism (and yes, get circumcised as an adult) to convert to Christianity. Paul, no dumb fuck he, realized "hmmm I'm losing potential converts over this". And declared that and the kosher laws unnecessary after he had a vision.

That's convenient!

Count me as another who had absolutely no idea about the circumcision debate until I came to FJ. I always enjoy reading these threads even when they do get heated. This place is so educational.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Yeah, that makes sense from what I've heard about Paul, but I swear I've heard that he also said something to the effect of circumcising your heart instead?

Also, whatever Paul's reasons were, I assume Christians since that time have reinterpreted them to not seem like opportunists? Like, do you really want to be part of a religion that dropped laws because you were losing potential converts? Obviously you're going to come up with some explanation like "Actually that really wasn't necessary because blah blah blah"

I'm trying not to be entirely cynical about this. ;)

THe person who told me this is an insanely cynical Catholic who works for the RCC. (My mother! ha!) And she's still a Christian... so....

[pomology]

THe person who told me this is an insanely cynical Catholic who works for the RCC. (My mother! ha!) And she's still a Christian... so....

Makes sense.

[NurseNell]

Maybe it's the more important latino population....

MN has larger Hmong, Karen, and Somali populations than Latino.

[NurseNell]

Maybe it's the more important latino population....

MN has larger Hmong, Karen, and Somali populations than immigrant Latino. Hmong in MN: 60,000 1/2 are in Saint Paul The Hmong tend to have large families. We have the largest number of Somalis in the US. There are about 32,000, most here in Minneapolis and Saint Paul. The Somalis tend to have large families.There are 3,500 Karen people, who've just recently begun coming here from refugee camps, the majority are in Saint Paul. They tend to have large families. There are 25,000 Vietnamese, they don't circ though they tend to have average size families of 4 to 6 kids.There are several other refugee groups, none of whom circ and who all tend to have large families.

The Latino population is larger at about 150,000 but the immigrant Latino population is about 60,000. The Latinos who've been here for generations tend to circ, it's the new immigrants who don't.

[Sinister Rouge]

Just came across this blog post today, and I thought some of you might be interested to read it. It was written by a mother about her daughter's circumcision:

http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html

Honestly, I don't see how this ISN'T comparable to male circumcision, and yet it's illegal in North America, while a much more invasive procedure is encouraged to be done on boys. Thoughts?

[Deleted03]

Just came across this blog post today, and I thought some of you might be interested to read it. It was written by a mother about her daughter's circumcision:

http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html

Honestly, I don't see how this ISN'T comparable to male circumcision, and yet it's illegal in North America, while a much more invasive procedure is encouraged to be done on boys. Thoughts?

still I can't help but wonder if those things could not be done at an adult stage rather as the baby stage. It has to come from those cultures though rather than being imposed by us. Maybe prick for blood at the baby stage and then as an adult do the procedure to those who are willing (of course, free choice is not always there either).

I don't know, it's a very complicated debate, and has been shown that medical reasons are better at convincing than saying things like barbaric and ignorant practices (duh!). In the comments of the article you see a lot of people calling it barbaric when this is highly medicalized... Hard debate...

[meda]

Just came across this blog post today, and I thought some of you might be interested to read it. It was written by a mother about her daughter's circumcision:

http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html

Honestly, I don't see how this ISN'T comparable to male circumcision, and yet it's illegal in North America, while a much more invasive procedure is encouraged to be done on boys. Thoughts?

Posting an article about the most mild form of Fgm performed and comparing it to male infant circumcision is a straw man argument. I would argue that the practice described here is the female equivalent of a rabbi pricking a boys penis with a a needle rather than removing the foreskin. In other words, a symbolic rather than actual circ. The most "severe" form of male circumcision, if done correctly, is far less invasive than the most severe form of FGM practiced on women and girls. I am willing to concede that male circumcision is something that only adult males should consent to, but this insistence that OMG!!!! It' JUST LIKE FGM, WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE PEOPLE!!!!!! Undermines your point and is insulting to women who have undergone the more severe forms of FGM. I have a dear friend who had the Somali version done to her when she was 8. She has no sexual feeling at all, chronic infections, and almost died giving birth. There are no reconstructive surgery options available to her. Stop belittling the experience of women like her.

[Sinister Rouge]

How is it belittling to women who have more severe forms done to point out that there are various degrees of FGM? And that all forms are banned in the USA(as I believe they should be)? It's the truth. I'm very, truly sorry for your friend's experience. That kind of thing should never, ever happen to anybody without their full, informe consent.

I just don't see that it's unfair to compare certain degrees of female circ to male circ. In many cases, especially outside of Africa, female circumcision is much less invasive than male circ is. These are facts. This is me wondering why one gender is wholeheartedy protected under United States law - s they should be - and another is routinely subjected to it.

[treemom]

How is it belittling to women who have more severe forms done to point out that there are various degrees of FGM? And that all forms are banned in the USA(as I believe they should be)? It's the truth. I'm very, truly sorry for your friend's experience. That kind of thing should never, ever happen to anybody without their full, informe consent.

I just don't see that it's unfair to compare certain degrees of female circ to male circ. In many cases, especially outside of Africa, female circumcision is much less invasive than male circ is. These are facts. This is me wondering why one gender is wholeheartedy protected under United States law - s they should be - and another is routinely subjected to it.

Only one gender is protected because the fact that it's called female genital mutilation, even when it doesn't mutilate. Most Americans who could talk about fgm are usually unaware that it has varying degrees.

Seems a bit obvious to me why it happened.

Also, the risks of the most drastic form of female circ are so much more severe than the risks of the most extreme male circ.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Read my response a few pages back. The FGM bans are relatively recent, and correspond to the influx of Somali refugees in the 1990s. They were made in response to the very real risk that thousands of girls here were at risk of the most severe form of FGM. There is no common equivalent today for males in North America.

[Deleted03]

Most immigrants who want to get their daughters FGM do it while they are visiting their family... I think that's why one country has instated a policy of legalizing it to do it in hospital conditions. This is a very complicated debate - although it is harder and more expensive for African immigrants to pay the flight to Africa from NA.

[MonkeyMomma]

I'll pop in for a quick comment on the state breakdown - according to the L&D nurse I chatted with after my son was born, a big factor in CA's low rates is that Kaiser Permanente no longer covers routine elective circumcision. That'll drive rates down pretty quick! Any KP folks care to comment on the truth of this statement? Like I said, hearsay from a nurse in Hippietown, Midwest USA.

[doggie]

looks like he had been warned before. But hey ritual is more important then health.

A Monsey rabbi once linked to the herpes-related death of a baby through oral-suction circumcisions is part of an investigation by the Brooklyn District Attorney’s Office into a newborn baby’s recent death from the virus, authorities said Wednesday.

Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer remains prohibited by a 2007 order from performing the oral-suction ritual and was sent a letter Wednesday stating that, a New York state Department of Health spokesman said.

“He was sent a letter reminding him the summary order is still in effect and that he cannot perform this ritual,†agency spokesman Michael Moran said.

Fischer has used his mouth to suction blood from the wound after he removes the foreskin. The centuries-old ritual, called metzitzah b’peh, is used predominantly by Hasidic and ultra-Orthodox Jews.

The ritual became a public debate after the death of one of three babies who had contracted the herpes simplex one virus in late 2004 following the oral-suction circumcisions by Fischer.

In late September, a 2-week-old boy died in Brooklyn, leading to the recent investigation into the circumstances of the newborn’s death, according to Jerry Schmetterer, a spokesman for Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes. Fischer became part of the investigation, partially from his history and the previous incidents.

The baby’s cause of death was from “disseminated herpes simplex virus type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction,†said Ellen Borakove, the public affairs director for the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner.

Rockland Health Department Commissioner Dr. Joan Facelle said Wednesday that there have been no reported herpes cases related to the circumcision method in Rockland.

A newspaper, The Jewish Week, recently reported that Fischer still was performing the controversial circumcisions.

The newspaper reported on taped conversations in which Fischer is heard scheduling a circumcision with a caller who asks him to perform metzitzah b’peh. On the recording, “Rabbi Fischer asks the caller whether the bris will take place ‘in Monsey or the city’, noting that he ‘can only do it in Rockland County,’ †according to the newspaper.

[shesinsane]

and it turned into a 10 page Circumcision - yes or no debate.

[Buzzard]

Where is that article from? I'm interested because if there was a prior warning, and the DAs office has it, then this issue isnt over. If he was on notice and continued (without suing to contest the prohibition) then the state has a very strong case to proceed on a negligent homicide - or whatever NY calls it.

[doggie]

sorry forgot the link

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120314/N ... |Frontpage

[Austin]

I don't believe this needs to be a new topic, so I've merged it.

[doggie]

I don't believe this needs to be a new topic, so I've merged it.

true. I forgot I was going to hunt for the original.