Baby dies After Rabbi/Oral suction Post-Circ {merged}

[Conuly]

If you read the forum linked, there are a few (maybe even several, depending on your definition) stories of people who say circumcision makes men less of a man.

Well, they're idiots. Glad we've cleared this up. Since you're talking to people who are at least making the effort to not be totally stupid, maybe you can take the arguments being made *here* and reply to *those* instead.

As for organ transplants and such, the thing is, the statement was "Medical secondary effects vary people to people and trauma about something done to you also vary. I tend to think we should listen to those who claim trauma, and re-evaluate our societal decisions regarding it." Going off that statement, nothing should EVER be done to children at their parents choice because it may harm them.

Seriously? We're not pulling out every silly, badly-worded statement you make and criticizing the exact words when it's patently obvious that you meant something slightly different. That's just... well, I can't think of a precise word, but it's some combination of petty silliness and childish rudeness.

I know the majority of the men worldwide aren't circ'd, but of the men who are, the majority don't sit there and complain.

Of course not. AS I SAID, no matter WHAT the situation, the majority of the world doesn't sit there and complain. It's a total, non-productive waste of time.

I'll remember to mention it to my husband that his opinion about his own personal penis is bullshit.

Be fair. He didn't say "their opinions are bullshit" but "the idea that every single circumcised individual is full of anger about it is bullshit".

My husband (circumcised ) said it would be awful if his penis was more sensitive than it already is, it would bug him all day long because he's already conscious of it more than enough.

I've read some studies suggesting that sensitivity when not engaging in sexytimes isn't increased because the foreskin is covering the glans and reducing friction there.

So it'd be more sensitive during sex (due to being protected most of the day and being kept moist) and less sensitive during the day (because it's not rubbing against your undies, the foreskin is doing that).

[BlackHawk]

I'll remember to mention it to my husband that his opinion about his own personal penis is bullshit.

and who said that? Who said a man cannot have an opinion on his own penis or that his opinion is bullshit? No where was that said by me.

[Deleted03]

Blackhawk, it has been shown that circumcision is not a medically based decision. so really, I don't see where you're coming from extrapolating about medical decisions on children.

Also there is a big difference between elle saying she had 2 cric boyfriends who resented the circumcision and sayng that all men resent it. Actually my point was that not all men resent it, but that maybe we should listen to the claims made by those who do resent it.

You're getting mad a people saying there is a proportion of men who resent the circumcision. Seriously where does it bring us?

[BlackHawk]

Well, they're idiots. Glad we've cleared this up. Since you're talking to people who are at least making the effort to not be totally stupid, maybe you can take the arguments being made *here* and reply to *those* instead.

I'm attempting to try quoting per conversation like you did.. forgive me if this ends up fucked up!

See, I figured since that forum was brought HERE, it was fair game to talk about. So linking and talking about a forum is not fair game? Who knew.

Seriously? We're not pulling out every silly, badly-worded statement you make and criticizing the exact words when it's patently obvious that you meant something slightly different. That's just... well, I can't think of a precise word, but it's some combination of petty silliness and childish rudeness.

The thing is you CAN take that statement and move it outward, which is why it's not a great statement. I didn't figure it was badly worded, more that she meant what she said. I am not a mind reader, merely replying to the text as I see it. If she meant something different, by all means, allow her to explain it to me. I read what I quoted and interpreted it from there.

Of course not. AS I SAID, no matter WHAT the situation, the majority of the world doesn't sit there and complain. It's a total, non-productive waste of time.

And I agree with you on that.

I'll remember to mention it to my husband that his opinion about his own personal penis is bullshit.

Be fair. He didn't say "their opinions are bullshit" but "the idea that every single circumcised individual is full of anger about it is bullshit".

[Conuly]

I'm attempting to try quoting per conversation like you did.. forgive me if this ends up fucked up!

Once you get the hang of it it makes conversations much easier to follow, I always think.

See, I figured since that forum was brought HERE, it was fair game to talk about. So linking and talking about a forum is not fair game? Who knew.

Meh, I for one am far too lazy to follow every link. Maybe if you said it clearly the first time that you were quoting from a link? Then I wouldn't feel so silly NOW either.

Thank you.

No problem. Like I said to *you*, I don't like it when people just make stuff up that wasn't said. Drives me batty, act-

I'm going to end now (yes, mid-word!) because I have to get going to pick the nieces up from school. I'll finish this comment later, or I won't.

[BlackHawk]

Blackhawk, it has been shown that circumcision is not a medically based decision. so really, I don't see where you're coming from extrapolating about medical decisions on children.

Also there is a big difference between elle saying she had 2 cric boyfriends who resented the circumcision and sayng that all men resent it. Actually my point was that not all men resent it, but that maybe we should listen to the claims made by those who do resent it.

You're getting mad a people saying there is a proportion of men who resent the circumcision. Seriously where does it bring us?

I'm not mad. I actually quite happy as I love a good debate, even debates where I lose! I enjoy discusing topics with individuals, and hopefully everyone here can understand that statement. I'm not angry, I'm enjoying a good debate... one where reading back I do come off like a tool at times. However, I stand by my current statements.

Elle quoted more than 2 men saying they resented their circumcisions... if I remember correctly.

I do think we need to listen to everyone, and I'd love to see a day where circumcisions weren't routinely done on infant boys. I agree that doesn't need to happen, as I've said so many times throughout. But I don't think decisions for everyone should be based on the few. It's my personal belief.

That said, I'm off to class, so my replies will be coming slower... don't want anyone to think I've flounced or ran away with my tail tucked! I have a lovely test on the Harlow Monkey study and vocabulary.. which should be fun!

[Deleted03]

I'm not mad. I actually quite happy as I love a good debate, even debates where I lose! I enjoy discusing topics with individuals, and hopefully everyone here can understand that statement. I'm not angry, I'm enjoying a good debate... one where reading back I do come off like a tool at times. However, I stand by my current statements.

Elle quoted more than 2 men saying they resented their circumcisions... if I remember correctly.

I do think we need to listen to everyone, and I'd love to see a day where circumcisions weren't routinely done on infant boys. I agree that doesn't need to happen, as I've said so many times throughout. But I don't think decisions for everyone should be based on the few. It's my personal belief.

That said, I'm off to class, so my replies will be coming slower... don't want anyone to think I've flounced or ran away with my tail tucked! I have a lovely test on the Harlow Monkey study and vocabulary.. which should be fun!

well I'm sure we can assume Elle only knows the type of circ angry men too so to her everyone is angry ;)

I also think it should not be done automatically and questions of religion makes any "legislation" very complicated. LIke someone told me in another circ war, in Judaism you are supposed to do the bris within a certain amount of days, so questions of pushing it off to 18 would be really complicated (then do you hide to do the bris? do you go to other countries, etc?)

[pomology]

well I'm sure we can assume Elle only knows the type of circ angry men too so to her everyone is angry ;)

I also think it should not be done automatically and questions of religion makes any "legislation" very complicated. LIke someone told me in another circ war, in Judaism you are supposed to do the bris within a certain amount of days, so questions of pushing it off to 18 would be really complicated (then do you hide to do the bris? do you go to other countries, etc?)

Yeah, the bris happens on the eighth day of life. Always (unless there's a medical issue). It doesn't matter if the eighth day is Saturday or a holiday or some other day you're not supposed to do work or whatever.

I'd actually be curious to see how many Jewish men regret or are angry about being circumcised as an infant. I wouldn't be surprised if it was significantly lower than the general population.

I, too, agree that I don't really see a reason for infant boys to be routinely circumcised. Jews, will of course, likely do as long Jews exist (yes, there are some who disapprove of the practice, but I think that the vast majority think it is an important enough part of tradition that they follow it). Jews are also a tiny subset of the world population.

Jews aren't doing it because they think it's a really awesome thing to do. At my baby cousin's bris last year, the mohelet talked about how we don't do it because it's easy, but because it's hard. I wish I could remember what exactly she said, because she spoke really well about it.

[treemom]

You know I think the reason I ended up being ok with not doing it is that the entire reason I was considering it was cultural, not medical. I feel like the benefits/risks are 50/50 on both sides of the discussion and my husband didn't want to (not a Jew). I saw it as something that was of huge importance culturally, but as I began to examine the fact that there were lots things I was unhappy with and my faith was pretty much dying I decided I didn't want to do it for cultural reasons.

I also realize this will make me extra unpopular, but I am comfortable with the less extreme versions of FG Cutting (Half The Sky discusses why we should drop the mutilation bit...because we aren't going to convince anyone when they are ok with their cutting and we insist on saying they were mutilated)

[Deleted03]

You know I think the reason I ended up being ok with not doing it is that the entire reason I was considering it was cultural, not medical. I feel like the benefits/risks are 50/50 on both sides of the discussion and my husband didn't want to (not a Jew). I saw it as something that was of huge importance culturally, but as I began to examine the fact that there were lots things I was unhappy with and my faith was pretty much dying I decided I didn't want to do it for cultural reasons.

I also realize this will make me extra unpopular, but I am comfortable with the less extreme versions of FG Cutting (Half The Sky discusses why we should drop the mutilation bit...because we aren't going to convince anyone when they are ok with their cutting and we insist on saying they were mutilated)

what are the less extreme versions? (just curious, I read about a culture that cuts the hood in half, others how just pick it for blood to be drawn.

[treemom]

what are the less extreme versions? (just curious, I read about a culture that cuts the hood in half, others how just pick it for blood to be drawn.

FGC where it is done with anesthetic, and doesn't remove the clitoris.

[treemom]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/201 ... ision.html

That is a good example of how moving away from the inflammatory language and moving towards human rights education changes the rate of cutting.

[valsa]

On the spanking thread, people are encouraged to "call it what it is" (hitting) I don't see how calling circumcision "mutilation" is any different than calling spanking/swatting/whatever "hitting".

[treemom]

On the spanking thread, people are encouraged to "call it what it is" (hitting) I don't see how calling circumcision "mutilation" is any different than calling spanking/swatting/whatever "hitting".

I am not telling people to call it anything. I am responding to actual studies that said when discussing it in communities where it occurs, calling it mutilation to the very women who had it done and are proud of it, will not win you any converts. And since it is those who you must convince it is probably a good idea to go with softer language.

The mission of FJ is not to end spanking, if it were then I might advocate for us using gentler language to the community that spanks.

In other words, telling someone who was spanked they were abused when they feel like their spankings were a sign of the good parents and also love and respect their parents, probably isn't going to convince anyone spanking is a poor choice. But use any word you want...I was explaining why I am not using mutilation. And since I travel to a lot of these countries, I have decided to make the change permanent in my language.

[Conuly]

I am not telling people to call it anything. I am responding to actual studies that said when discussing it in communities where it occurs, calling it mutilation to the very women who had it done and are proud of it, will not win you any converts. And since it is those who you must convince it is probably a good idea to go with softer language.

The mission of FJ is not to end spanking, if it were then I might advocate for us using gentler language to the community that spanks.

In other words, telling someone who was spanked they were abused when they feel like their spankings were a sign of the good parents and also love and respect their parents, probably isn't going to convince anyone spanking is a poor choice. But use any word you want...I was explaining why I am not using mutilation. And since I travel to a lot of these countries, I have decided to make the change permanent in my language.

That's an extremely good point. It doesn't matter if you think it is mutilation, sometimes the more effective path is also, incidentally, the more polite path.

I'm sorry I wasn't here for all this scintillating conversation, I just spent literally four hours at the doctor's office watching the older niece get one nebulizer treatment after another (and an x-ray!) to little effect. FOUR. HOURS. No books. No toys. No food. The nieces and I were MIS ER A BLE by the end of it, and they were doing their best to LITERALLY bounce off the walls. I'm a little shellshocked.

[treemom]

That's an extremely good point. It doesn't matter if you think it is mutilation, sometimes the more effective path is also, incidentally, the more polite path.

I'm sorry I wasn't here for all this scintillating conversation, I just spent literally four hours at the doctor's office watching the older niece get one nebulizer treatment after another (and an x-ray!) to little effect. FOUR. HOURS. No books. No toys. No food. The nieces and I were MIS ER A BLE by the end of it, and they were doing their best to LITERALLY bounce off the walls. I'm a little shellshocked.

If you are interested, totstan is the organization that had done the most to reduce it, they were inspired by the fact that what ended foot binding in china was basically communities making pacts to not do it. If you haven't read half the sky but Nicholas kristoff and Sheryl Duwan I reccomend it. Instead of focusing on prescriptive fixes that are pc they really talked about the many ways women's lives can be improved.

Sorry to derail.

[Sinister Rouge]

No matter what you call the ordeal this little boy lived through, there is no doubt that what happened to him was, in the end, manslaughter, and nobody is being charged for it. Nor has anyone been charged for the suffering (and in one case, death) of the three other little boys infected with herpes in the same manner. How this whole mess has been so completely swept under the rug... well, I still can't quite wrap my head around it. It's a complete fucking travesty of justice.

[treemom]

No matter what you call the ordeal this little boy lived through, there is no doubt that what happened to him was, in the end, manslaughter, and nobody is being charged for it. Nor has anyone been charged for the suffering (and in one case, death) of the three other little boys infected with herpes in the same manner. How this whole mess has been so completely swept under the rug... well, I still can't quite wrap my head around it. It's a complete fucking travesty of justice.

I agree it is a travesty.

[aimee]

I know the majority of the men worldwide aren't circ'd, but of the men who are, the majority don't sit there and complain.

Look, I agree that circ is not a great idea. I just hate the idea that people seem to spout that every man they know hates being circ'd and complains so much about it. That's bullshit, plain and simple.

Blackhawk, I don't recall anyone saying there are men who "sit there and complain about circumcision." Nor does every man I've ever known "hate" being circumcised. Those images and impressions are of your own making.

There are circumcised adult men who are not happy about it. Why is that so hard to believe?

Perhaps no one has shared their negative emotions with you because they know you won't respect their feelings. Men feeling violated and shamed because they were circumcised is NOT bullshit. To say those feelings are bullshit makes you way insensitive.

I know a lot of men who are less than thrilled with their infant genitals being messed with. Not ALL men, but a LOT of men. I have had INTIMATE contact with genitals that got messed up due to circumcision. That's just a fact. Maybe no one has ever felt comfortable enough to tell you they got circumcised as an adult and, now that he's cut like most of the men in porn, he realises he made a big mistake. Maybe no one wanted to share that he finds arousal painful due to wonky scarring. Perhaps no one has shared their anger and feeling of violation because his parents had part of his infant penis removed just to appease religious grandparents. It's entirely possible you've never met a man who has to explain how his penis works before he can have sex or receive oral sex. It could be you've never met a man who has to tell every potential partner that he's not capable of penetrative sex. Or maybe you have met that dude, but he's not going to go to you for comfort when yet ANOTHER interested party runs for the hills when they realise what they'd be getting into.

Forget all of the men I know who would have opted for an intact penis, let me just talk about ONE I knew and loved. He was scarred by infant circumcision. So scarred that before we could have sex he had to explain to me, with the help of pen and paper, how he was able to be pleasured and what I could expect from his damaged goods. That makes me very angry, and very sad, to know that his adult life was abject misery because his parents opted to remove a part of his penis. That you would deny him those feelings makes me sad to the bone. If you would not allow him feelings of shame, anger and violation, well, I think you kind of scare me.

My point in contributing to this conversation was to put it out there that there are grown, sexually mature, men who wish they hadn't been circumcised. There are grown men who have the RIGHT to their negative feelings about their circumcision.

Why you want to deny them that right, I'm sure I don't know.

There are men who aren't fussed having been mussed with, there are men who are fussed that their junk was altered before they were old enough to have a say in the matter.

[BlackHawk]

Blackhawk, I don't recall anyone saying there are men who "sit there and complain about circumcision." Nor does every man I've ever known "hate" being circumcised. Those images and impressions are of your own making.

There are circumcised adult men who are not happy about it. Why is that so hard to believe?

Perhaps no one has shared their negative emotions with you because they know you won't respect their feelings. Men feeling violated and shamed because they were circumcised is NOT bullshit. To say those feelings are bullshit makes you way insensitive.

I know a lot of men who are less than thrilled with their infant genitals being messed with. Not ALL men, but a LOT of men. I have had INTIMATE contact with genitals that got messed up due to circumcision. That's just a fact. Maybe no one has ever felt comfortable enough to tell you they got circumcised as an adult and, now that he's cut like most of the men in porn, he realises he made a big mistake. Maybe no one wanted to share that he finds arousal painful due to wonky scarring. Perhaps no one has shared their anger and feeling of violation because his parents had part of his infant penis removed just to appease religious grandparents. It's entirely possible you've never met a man who has to explain how his penis works before he can have sex or receive oral sex. It could be you've never met a man who has to tell every potential partner that he's not capable of penetrative sex. Or maybe you have met that dude, but he's not going to go to you for comfort when yet ANOTHER interested party runs for the hills when they realise what they'd be getting into.

Forget all of the men I know who would have opted for an intact penis, let me just talk about ONE I knew and loved. He was scarred by infant circumcision. So scarred that before we could have sex he had to explain to me, with the help of pen and paper, how he was able to be pleasured and what I could expect from his damaged goods. That makes me very angry, and very sad, to know that his adult life was abject misery because his parents opted to remove a part of his penis. That you would deny him those feelings makes me sad to the bone. If you would not allow him feelings of shame, anger and violation, well, I think you kind of scare me.

My point in contributing to this conversation was to put it out there that there are grown, sexually mature, men who wish they hadn't been circumcised. There are grown men who have the RIGHT to their negative feelings about their circumcision.

Why you want to deny them that right, I'm sure I don't know.

There are men who aren't fussed having been mussed with, there are men who are fussed that their junk was altered before they were old enough to have a say in the matter.

Perhaps you need a reading comprehension class. No where did I say that NO MAN is against circ, no where did I say that it's bullshit to think any man doesn't like it. Read a bit better, k?

As for people not talking to me cause I don't respect their feeling... REALLY? How dense of you, really. I don't even feel the need to respond to that, because it's such a ridiculous statement.

I do not deny anyone their feelings. You are projecting bullshit at this point. Read what I wrote, really read it and pay attention to what is said. Then perhaps you can realize what is said is no where near as dramatic as you are trying to make it out to be. People have issues, people have scars... yes, I have read about them, and spoken to a man who had his penis entirely removed due to a botched circ, and his parents were advised to raise him as a girl because of it. Doesn't make a difference to what I've said above.

Each person is allowed to have an opinion, each person is allowed to express their opinion, each person has their own story. No one is denying that. What I am saying, just in simpler terms, is that not every man sits around and laments about their parents choices for their penis as a baby. I would venture to say MOST CIRC'D men do not sit around and lament how horrible their life is because they were circ'd. There are exceptions to every statement, no one is denying that, and those stories can be heart breaking. No where did I say those statements are bullshit, nor those emotions aren't valid.

[cindyluvs24]

Enough existential debate. Which kind would you rather go down on? Just sayin'.

[Conuly]

Enough existential debate. Which kind would you rather go down on? Just sayin'.

Just saying WHAT, exactly? That people who live in a society where most people are one way, and who are therefore conditioned to think that that was is better for certain types of sex, should perforce make decisions regarding another person's penis based on what his future sex partners MAY prefer?

Is that it?

[keen23]

This thread is somewhat amazing. I don't think I've ever spent any length of time even thinking about circumcision- being that I personally don't have a penis, nor do any of my children have a penis. The husband does have a normally functioning penis (TMI, I know, I apologize) and has no PTSD or injuries stemming from infant male circumcision. He also does not miss his foreskin nor is he part of a support group bemoaning the loss of his foreskin nor is he looking to regrow his foreskin. Obviously, I'm no expert in foreskins, having no first-hand (so to speak) experience with a penis that has one. My more than slightly less than a dozen past intimacy partners didn't have a foreskin amongst them.

[Kitchen Princess]

With the rates of circumcision plummeting, it is highly likely that won't be your daughter's experience.

[Spider Burps]

With the rates of circumcision plummeting, it is highly likely that won't be your daughter's experience.

I was hanging out with a group of friends in DC (all of whom are Jewish) and one of them asked me, out of the blue, "What would you do if you came across an uncircumcised penis?" Thing is... my fiance (who was my first everything) isn't circumcised. I responded with "Well... I guess I'd marry it!" Cue the most raucous laughter I've ever gotten from that group--which is really saying something!