The Pilgrim/Hales/Buckinghams

[Witsec7]

There is also a pretty good group of John Birch Society followers in specific areas.

I got the Birchy scent from Papa Buck but haven't found a linkage yet.

[Patsy]

I am often curious how the Maxwell kids respond to those parts of their father's censorship that are particularly obvious. Sarah, especially, has to notice that some comments are deleted. She has occasionally responded to comments, so we know she's allowed to read them, at the very least, and possibly initially allows them through, as well. Then - poof! I'm willing to bet she doesn't get to ask her Idol why those comments were deleted.

Do you think the kids ever wonder why they're not allowed to associate with their old friends any more? Steve can't say "Their father was doing something wrong, so he had to leave", because that implies that, you know, fathers can ever do anything so wrong that they can be forced not to -- by others, not by God telling them to stop! I think it's likely they never got any explanation at all, and they can't even wonder aloud if their old friends still live near X, and if they'll maybe run into them at their X conference next month.

[Witsec7]

I'm pretty sure that Steve just says they other kids or parents are in sin and no one questions them. For the deleted posts I think he give the woman a lecture sermon on what was evil about the post and gosh isn't she lucky to have the cover of her father blah blah blah blah blah.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I am often curious how the Maxwell kids respond to those parts of their father's censorship that are particularly obvious. Sarah, especially, has to notice that some comments are deleted. She has occasionally responded to comments, so we know she's allowed to read them, at the very least, and possibly initially allows them through, as well. Then - poof! I'm willing to bet she doesn't get to ask her Idol why those comments were deleted.

Do you think the kids ever wonder why they're not allowed to associate with their old friends any more? Steve can't say "Their father was doing something wrong, so he had to leave", because that implies that, you know, fathers can ever do anything so wrong that they can be forced not to -- by others, not by God telling them to stop! I think it's likely they never got any explanation at all, and they can't even wonder aloud if their old friends still live near X, and if they'll maybe run into them at their X conference next month.

Only the older non-reversal Maxwell kids ever had outside individual "friends" and Sarah in particular regrets having had them, in the "Hearts" book. Take that as you will.

If you mean the Hale family, I'm sure they only heard that the father thought he was Biblical but really wasn't. I mean, the Hale kids themselves now still manage to live a life of pretty fundie extreme Christianity to this day (if the neighbor wants to chime in with details, feel free, I'm just giving an impression I got from their vacation blog) so they didn't toss out religion when the horrid abuse actually happened TO THEM. The Maxwells only met them (as far as I know) via the Buckingham family, and they knew the Buckingham family long before the Buckinghams ever met the Hales or had any ideas about Alaska - they lived in Kansas and went to the Maxwells' church (and even sent their kids to actual school at that point). So from the Maxwell kids' POV, surely it's "well, we have this other family in fellowship with our family, and that family met up with this OTHER family, that had issues where Dad was all misguided and crazy, but now it's all good because they've found Jesus for real, and we met them, later" or some kinda thing. No disturbing questioning required at all.

As for the comments on the Maxwell blog, I had the impression that Sarah used to respond to more comments in the past but now it's mostly Steve-O. I think she used to help moderate various of their forums back when they were active - are the MOTH boards running anymore? The URL comes up but I don't have their book so can't log into it, but even the old posts you can find on wayback some of them are formatted in the same scheme as the log in page that comes up, so I don't know if they're running or just zombie pages. Nothing very new is archived in in the wayback machine, and google hits on discussion around it are years old (though I'm just doing a quick one-off search while writing this post AND I had a beer so YMMV, maybe a good search finds the thing).

[Patsy]

Only the older non-reversal Maxwell kids ever had outside individual "friends" and Sarah in particular regrets having had them, in the "Hearts" book. Take that as you will.

If you mean the Hale family, I'm sure they only heard that the father thought he was Biblical but really wasn't. I mean, the Hale kids themselves now still manage to live a life of pretty fundie extreme Christianity to this day (if the neighbor wants to chime in with details, feel free, I'm just giving an impression I got from their vacation blog) so they didn't toss out religion when the horrid abuse actually happened TO THEM. The Maxwells only met them (as far as I know) via the Buckingham family, and they knew the Buckingham family long before the Buckinghams ever met the Hales or had any ideas about Alaska - they lived in Kansas and went to the Maxwells' church (and even sent their kids to actual school at that point). So from the Maxwell kids' POV, surely it's "well, we have this other family in fellowship with our family, and that family met up with this OTHER family, that had issues where Dad was all misguided and crazy, but now it's all good because they've found Jesus for real, and we met them, later" or some kinda thing. No disturbing questioning required at all.

As for the comments on the Maxwell blog, I had the impression that Sarah used to respond to more comments in the past but now it's mostly Steve-O. I think she used to help moderate various of their forums back when they were active - are the MOTH boards running anymore? The URL comes up but I don't have their book so can't log into it, but even the old posts you can find on wayback some of them are formatted in the same scheme as the log in page that comes up, so I don't know if they're running or just zombie pages. Nothing very new is archived in in the wayback machine, and google hits on discussion around it are years old (though I'm just doing a quick one-off search while writing this post AND I had a beer so YMMV, maybe a good search finds the thing).

Gotcha, I don't know the story well and thought the Maxwells had met the Hales before the father was arrested. Less opportunity for awkward authority-questioning ponderings there.

I've also seen Steve replying to comments more in the recent past. I assume Sarah still sees them, even when she isn't the one replying, though.

[DinglyDoll]

I am late to the Buck Hale party and most of the links here are now broken. I did find this link that summarizes their story. Wow! I felt like I was reading the synopsis of a new HBO series!  https://www.adn.com/projects/article/hale-children-and-their-mother-find-peace-after-controversial-life-mccarthy/2013/07/12/

[Maggie Mae]

In case anyone is interested, there is a fblive video with Elishaba right now on the Facebook "Alaska Chicks" page. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/AlaskaChicks/videos/1718974391452811/

 

[Maggie Mae]

I saw this today on Facebook. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

The book on the Hales was truly heart breaking. I believe it was called Pilgrim's Paradise. The families are still very much fundie. Papa Buckingham brought his family to Alaska because he thought society at large was to sinful and needed to be brought back to it's "Christian foundation". There was a vomit-inducing line at the marriage of a Buckingham daughter to a Hale son about "it being the duty of a wife to obey her husband in everything." Papa Buckingham was the officiant.

[Maggie Mae]

I noticed this page: https://fundamentalists.fandom.com/wiki/Hale_Family is missing some birthdates and other info so here is what I can find: 

Hosanna: 

Spoiler

Job: 

Spoiler

Noah Hale: 

Spoiler

Abraham Hale: 

Spoiler

Psalms & Beth

Spoiler

 

FYI Elishaba's son Michael has been suffering from Moyamoya disease and has been in and out of surgery for most of this year. 

I feel like she's been through enough in her life and this just isn't fair. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Lolly Hale is second from the left:

[JermajestyDuggar]

Elishaba’s husband is as divorcing her and siding with her family. Her family still seems to bd mad she wrote a book about her life growing up. The Hales are still so messed up from what their dad did to them. And now they are taking it out on Elishaba. I’m sure the youngest ones don’t even remember how bad it was. And the oldest boys who do remember were never raped by their dad so they can spin it however they want. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[Maggie Mae]

According to Court View, Jonathan Hale (DOB 2002) applied for a DV Protective Order against Elishaba back in June of this year. How odd. 

I figured it was just a matter of time that she was divorced - between the stress of her special needs child and deconstructing, and living in fucking Palmer. That's like all there is out there - domestic violence drama, church hopping, divorce, remarriage. And everyone claims to be a Christian, while being racist af.  The people out near Lazy Mountain are a special breed as well. 

[hoipolloi]

This is so sad, all of it. I have not read her memoir but did read the book & articles by Alaska journalist Tom Kizzia. You are probably right, @Maggie Mae -- it was always going to be an uphill battle for her to achieve a happy life.

If you subscribe to Kindle Unlimited, it's also worth checking out the memoir by the ex-wife of Robert Hale's (Papa Pilgrimʻs) twin brother, Billy -- He Heard His Brother Call His Name. Hale/Pilgrim really destroyed both families. Be forewarned that the book is a typical self-published work, with minimal editing & typos. 

 

[Maggie Mae]

5 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

This is so sad, all of it. I have not read her memoir but did read the book & articles by Alaska journalist Tom Kizzia. You are probably right, @Maggie Mae -- it was always going to be an uphill battle for her to achieve a happy life.

If you subscribe to Kindle Unlimited, it's also worth checking out the memoir by the ex-wife of Robert Hale's (Papa Pilgrimʻs) twin brother, Billy -- He Heard His Brother Call His Name. Hale/Pilgrim really destroyed both families. Be forewarned that the book is a typical self-published work, with minimal editing & typos. 

 

Thanks for the recommendation! I still haven't read elishaba's book. 

I loved Tom Kizzas book but looking back I think I just loved reading about Alaska History and McCarthy more than Papa Pilgrim. He wrote another book about McCarthy and I keep meaning to get it. 

I feel so bad for the Hale family but also like.. I don't particularly like most of them. 

 

 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I second feeling really bad for the Hale family but not particularly liking most of them. They are definitely still deeply patriarchal fundies. Papa Buckingham gave me the icks in Tom Kizzas book. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I can’t help but speculate that everyone involved with the Hales soon after their escape and father’s imprisonment may have a savior complex. I imagine Pa Buckingham does. I can’t help but wonder about Elishaba’s soon to be ex as well. Does her sudden ability to have a voice and tell her story bother him? Did he prefer the woman in need that he married?  Again, all speculation. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[hoipolloi]

7 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Papa Buckingham gave me the icks in Tom Kizzas book. 

I agree. Yes, the Buckingham home was better & safer than the Pilgrim house of horrors but there was still a lot poisonous Kool-aid being drunk. 

ETA: Just looked to see if Elishaba's book was available on Amazon, which it is. A customer review includes a statement allegedly made by one of her siblings.

Quote

I am the third oldest in my family and prior to the release of this book I have held no hard feelings against my sister for the past and have never shared these things with anyone in effort to allow healing.
So here’s my basic take on my sister‘s book. Overall, in my opinion, the book is her way of justifying herself for the abuse that she aided our dad in against the family. And some things in her book are just completely false....While so many of us have purposed to move on from the past and make new lives and have a positive impact on the world around us, we now are being forced to wallow in the mud with all of this grossness put down in a book incorrectly. For my children and grandchildren to read some day. That includes many articles that have been written. And Tom Kizzia‘s book which is full of lies. I’m really just sick of vultures landing on the situation to pick it apart and sell it for their own benefit with a family that has been abused and trying to move on. And young people that are still trying to find spouses and live free of the crap they’ve been subjected to without a choice.

The sibling essentially says that Elishaba was the main co-abuser with her father, the mother & other siblings being the real victims. Apparently, Amazon removed that previous statement:

Edited August 7, 2023 by hoipolloi
Adding info

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

I agree. Yes, the Buckingham home was better & safer than the Pilgrim house of horrors but there was still a lot poisonous Kool-aid being drunk. 

ETA: Just looked to see if Elishaba's book was available on Amazon, which it is. A customer review includes a statement allegedly made by one of her siblings.

The sibling essentially says that Elishaba was the main co-abuser with her father, the mother & other siblings being the real victims. Apparently, Amazon removed that previous statement:

The thing is, she very likely was forced to help “train” the younger children. We’ve heard of this in fundie land. That the oldest children must act as parents. I’m not excusing this type of behavior. But these younger Hales really need therapy. Like a lot of it. And maybe they would understand why Elishaba was put in the position to abuse the kids along with the father. If they want to blame Elishaba, they must blame their mother as well. Because she was basically put in a very similar position as Elishaba. 

[Maggie Mae]

10 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I can’t help but speculate that everyone involved with the Hales soon after their escape and father’s imprisonment may have a savior complex. I imagine Pa Buckingham does.

Oh, absolutely. There's a story on the Fairbanks Daily News Minor from 2011 where they took in a family whose house burned down and organized a fundraiser. Right now Jim & Martha are also working in a "Christian" Evangelical camp near Bethel AK. 

 

10 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I can’t help but wonder about Elishaba’s soon to be ex as well. Does her sudden ability to have a voice and tell her story bother him? Did he prefer the woman in need that he married?  Again, all speculation. 

I can't speak to his thoughts but he runs a trucking company. The Bucks have a construction company. I haven't heard of either of their businesses, which means that they aren't going out for the big government bids, but they might be targeting Christians and doing residential work in the Mat-Su/Fairbanks/Delta/Rural areas. They probably need each other for business reasons. 

Matthew also listed as a previous director of ALaska Men's Ministries LLC which is a religious organization and has zero web presence. 

11 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Papa Buckingham gave me the icks in Tom Kizzas book. 

So here's what I know about James "Jim" Buckingham. He retired from the military, has his pilot license, and moved his family from New York to Alaska. He used to teach at West Point, and has a doctorate. His oldest two daughters - who I think married Hales - Sharia and Lolly - were adults or close to it when they moved to Alaska and built a cabin. They expected to go to college but you know, no one is a fervent as a religious convert. 

He also owns a construction company in Palmer AK.

 

I can't even begin to describe how many people I've met in there neighborhood and how bonkers mad they all are. I honestly don't know how I haven't met a single Hale or Buckingham - I have mutual friends on FB, I know people who live on their streets. But every single person I've met/know from that neighborhood is completely insane in different ways. Q people, conspiracy people who hate Q, people who brag about not having email or knowing how to computer, people who sell random whole grains and grain mills, with a side of religion, people really into metal with a side of white supremacy, people really into their business with a side of supply chain Jesus. 

I also have no idea how to be like "hey rando person that I know professionally and just told me about how Biden wants to ban free speech/food/gas stoves/restaurants/republicans/homeschools, do you know this family I read about once who had this horrible thing happen to them and what do you think abou them?"