How long until all the fundy blogs are aflame over Obama?

[pomology]

Gutsy move by Obama, although I'm affraid that he just killed his chance of re-election with this.

Americans, what do you think? Will this help or hurt the Dems for next November? :?:

Honestly, I think that the economy will play a much greater role in this election than hot button social issues. Also, I think that Obama's chance really rest on how ably he can get young people out to the polls. He won in 2008 by getting young people out in swing states. And I think if he wins again, that's what he needs to do. And young people, by and large, support gay marriage.

[Wolfie]

I don't think there was anyone who planned on voting for him who is going to change their mind because of this. If he doesn't win reelection, this won't be the issue that caused it.

There was something on the radio about this (NPR). Basically once you've figured out your candidate, it is very easy to explain away things you don't like.

FWIW, I pretty much choose based on which one is the best and expect that there are going to be a few things I don't like just because we're all human, so I'm not sure if what they were saying was anything new.

[Witsec1]

However, if a person is born in America, but spends most if not ALL of his formative years being indoctrinated by other countries who are strongly anti-American, or whose parents are radically against the American agenda of yore, then its understandable why some people consider him to be non-American. We've never had a President with his educational background.

And I say this as someone who voted for Obama in 2008. It is reasonable for people to ask if it is not enough for someone merely BORN in the US to quality as a valid representative of American values.

ahahhahahahahahahahaaha. Showing your hand a bit there, eh? So substitute "ignorant xenophobia" for racism. Same diff.

So going to a Catholic school for 3.5 years and a public school for 1-2 years in Indonesia when a pro-Western government was in power, counts as "being indoctrinated by other countries" in your book, does it? And what is this "American agenda of yore" of which you speak? Does it include the labor activists, trust-busters, muckrakers, protesters and hellraisers that made life better for ordinary people?

Sorry to derail the nail polish discussion. Carry on.

[pomology]

We've never had a President with his educational background.

Yeah, Obama's the only president to have gone to Columbia, and the only other president to have gone to Harvard Law was the unimpressive Rutherford B. Hayes.

Man, we have a ton to fear from these Ivy-educated foreigners.

(And don't give me shit about how Obama went to a madrasa or whatever. I went to a مدرسة, too. I know it looks all weird and scary in Arabic, but whatever, I'm okay with the fact that I've attended school.

Oh, and I totes have a friend who was just hired to teach American history at the prep school Obama attended in Hawaii. I'll have to tell her that she's gonna have to go indoctrinate kids to be anti-America.

[Elle]

Romney has a successful business background and was a successful governor of Massachusetts. He has shown himself to be an apt and capable leader and someone who is able to access situations and know what the best course of action is. Despite what people say about his wealth, as a member of the LDS church (as I am) he has probably experienced and seen the worst of the human condition serving in the church (he brought it up briefly when talking about being a Bishop) and will do everything he can to help the citizens of the United States.

As for the gay marriage debacle- I agree that the GOP always brings it up and they need to stop it. I wanted to smack my head against the wall when the BC was brought up a while back.

Being leader of a small state is not the same as being leader of an entire nation. It's easier to find middle-ground on many issued when dealing with am ugh smaller population. As far as the nation goes, one of his plans is to end Planned Parenthood, which would eliminate the only source of health care many poor women AND men have. How the hell is that doing everything he can to help the citizens? To take away the only health care? PP focuses on reproductive health, but guess what. Sadly many people go there for other things because they have nowhere else to go. I think he did a great job as governor based on what I observed from the other side of the country in a state with more issues than the rest combined. But his plans for the US are not the way to go.

I think you back him because you share religion with him. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned that you just happen to share religion with him.

[Elle]

I want quotes from any news site where Obama is described as "not American" because he is half African-American. I want an actual citation where any large body of journalism, or heck, even a strong voice from the freaking TEA PARTY concerning this level of racism.

No, I don't want citations from some crazy random blogger, but a real piece of representative evidence.

Obama is often described as not American because his schooling was largely non-American. Because his upbringing occurred in various countries and then he later returned to America.

There is no question that he is born in America. "Birthers" are just following a crazy conspiracy line.

However, if a person is born in America, but spends most if not ALL of his formative years being indoctrinated by other countries who are strongly anti-American, or whose parents are radically against the American agenda of yore, then its understandable why some people consider him to be non-American. We've never had a President with his educational background.

And I say this as someone who voted for Obama in 2008. It is reasonable for people to ask if it is not enough for someone merely BORN in the US to quality as a valid representative of American values.

Have you completely ignored the media for the last four years? Accusations that because he's black (ignoring his mother or being raised by a white grandmother) and his dad is from Kenya and listed as "African" for race, that it must mean Obama is African? I went to google and out in "obama black not american" and 332 million hits came up. Go take your pick. Race had been a MAJOR issue of his presidency. Only someone living under a rock could have missed that.

[Elle]

Didn't Romney tell a single mother to give up her baby for adoption or she would be excommunicated when he was a bishop? Oh yeah. He did.

OMFG, are you serious?!

[Elle]

The DADT repeal didn't do anything towards gay marriage - it only allows gay servicemembers to serve openly, but it does not give them access to any of the benefits that married straight servicemembers have. No benefits or rights for spouses because of DOMA. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a huge thing, but it's not very much in the long run. It just makes me so happy when I see Soldiers I know are gay, when before they would have had to not just be who they are.

One of my mom's aunts married a gay male friend back in about 1985 because servicemen who weren't married were looked at odd back in the days of AIDS being new and people terrified of the evil gayz. Since the military was so important to him, to serve the country that would shun him, he married a woman and they had a baby to further solidify the appearance of husband and wife. (She had two children previously, and the one with him, and all three ended up being gay.) Even before DADT, it was bad for soldiers. Thank goodness they no longer have to fear repercussions as much as they used to. But it's damned time they get the same legal benefits the straight of us get.

[Elle]

Please address my first statement, you wise arbiter of race relations.

I still don't believe you voted for Obama.

I don't believe you have biracial children. 'They won't know what they are' is such a common argument used against biracial kids I don't know a good parent that would actually use it in the way you have. If by some coincidence you are not a troll, you're probably the cooky racist relative you multiracial family talks about behind your back.

Good Day. :clap:

I'm glad I'm not the first to say this. I have a hard time believing a word this person is saying about having bi-racial children and being so sensitive to racial issues, but managing to completely miss four years of insult toward Obama for his race and using it to claim he's not an American citizen.

[Elle]

What is "systematical" racism?

I do agree racism is racism - any group thinking that their "race" is superior ...

Other than that, coloured nail polish looks like crap on me; I have to go to "nude" or "natural" colors because I'm very pale and bright colours make me look worse.

Racism is racism, and I think anyone can be racist against any race. All racism means is to discriminate based on race, whether it's institutional or societal or an individual deciding not to be friends with Mary because she's black/white/purple, and that individual thinks all blacks/whites/purples are evil.

Also I haven't painted my nails in years. Never have enough time to site and do nothing with my hands. I like pinks though.

[Fluffy-Boo]

I'm glad I'm not the first to say this. I have a hard time believing a word this person is saying about having bi-racial children and being so sensitive to racial issues, but managing to completely miss four years of insult toward Obama for his race and using it to claim he's not an American citizen.

If Obama had released his birth certificate early in the election, the birthing sensation would have DIED down a heck of a lot faster. He wasn't under scrutiny because of his skin color--American already had African Americans in high levels of office--it was because the man had an ethnic name and a powerfully ethnic history at a time when half the nation grew pale at the thought of anything Middle Eastern. These people may have been ridiculously sensitive, but you know what calms people down?

TRANSPARENCY: release birth certificate as soon as rumors fly. Wait too long and they think you've fabricated it.

Obama won the election by a considerable amount in 2008, not because some birthers were running around asking for a certificate and the GOP was loving every minute of it, but largely because independents were tired of big government Republican policies and wanted a CHANGE. It was also groundbreaking to be electing the first African-American president, this actually worked to his advantage.

Only he is not African-American to be exact. He is bi-racial.

And btw bi-racial does NOT mean half-white half-African American, it means you are 50 percent one race and 50 percent the other. Straight down the middle. This can mean black, white, Native-American, Chicano, Asian.

Race might have been an issue for a minority of voters who obviously voted against him, but a clear-win election in 2008 completely obliterates the idea that Obama's race was viewed as a shatteringly negative factor. He even won 43% of the white vote which not even Kerry could boast. How racist is that???

Disliking Obama for his policies is not an agenda. I voted for him because he called Bush's CRAZY spending unpatriotic and vowed to cut spending. The deficit is now three times what it should be and the man just bypassed Congress again, giving 192 million dollars to the PA.

Obama is not considered unAmerican by many conservatives because of his race, but for his views regarding the Constitution. His opinions and comments regarding the supreme court are sometimes radical. It might be because of his educational bias, or it might have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

I like some conservatives and a few Tea Partiers too, and if you want to prove my racial analysis wrong, then I'd need to see one prominent figure of either of these parties echoing anything close to what Jehmu Greene called Tucker Carlson on national TV--a bow tie wearin' white boy--and still keep his/her job.

If you can top that you win. You can undermine my insidious agenda. Pure and Simple.

But I suspect you'll have as hard a time doing that as you will explaining why Herman Cain was such a Tea Party favorite...

[Sola]

If Obama had released his birth certificate early in the election, the birthing sensation would have DIED down a heck of a lot faster.

Why should he? By doing so he would have just been pandering to the pillocks who would find any excuse. Even when he did there were accusations of forgery.

He wasn't under scrutiny because of his skin color

Bullshit. Do you live in a bubble by any chance?

Obama won the election by a considerable amount in 2008,

Obama won the election because of many factors. The USA was fucked up by Bush. He was the only sane candidate (McCain/Palin anyone?). People wanted healthcare. He won the majority of the Black vote. People wanted change. And a myriad of other reasons.

Only he is not African-American to be exact. He is bi-racial.

He's both. His father is African, his mother is American. Therefore he is a bi-racial African American.

Race might have been an issue for a minority of voters who obviously voted against him, but a clear-win election in 2008 completely obliterates the idea that Obama's race was viewed as a shatteringly negative factor. He even won 43% of the white vote which not even Kerry could boast. How racist is that

Take a look at the spread of those votes. He won fewer votes among Caucasians in the Bible Belt.

Disliking Obama for his policies is not an agenda. I voted for him because he called Bush's CRAZY spending unpatriotic and vowed to cut spending.

Well at least you have some sense.

The deficit is now three times what it should be and the man just bypassed Congress again, giving 192 million dollars to the PA.

Two issues here; First off if you are going by the view that you must spend to build (in other words Trickle UP economics) then an increase in deficit right now should not be a surprise. As more people find jobs this will balance out as tax receipts will go up eventually. The US right now has growth, it is not in recession. Whilst the recovery is slow, it is happening. Over here in the UK our conservative government has gone the other way. They have viscously CUT spending and the result has been that we are now back in recession. Jobs are being lost left, right and center and despite the tax cuts for the rich, that hasn't trickled DOWN. Instead what we have is fewer tax receipts and more welfare claimants as people lose their jobs.

As for the money to the Palestinian authority, this is a different issue entirely. First off I would ask you if you have any idea on what life is like in the West Bank and Gaza? If you don't, then I would advise you to learn. Israel has stopped handing over taxes which they collect for the PA (disclaimer: that was the last I heard, they might have backed down over that by now). Without those taxes the PA cannot pay it's teachers, it's doctors, it's road sweepers etc. Without aid to the PA, poverty will increase, resentment will increase and anger will fester. We all know what happens then and this isn't limited to the Palestinians. This happens to any society where poverty increases - take a look at how well the far right neo Nazis have done in the Greek elections. Poverty breeds resentment, resentment breeds violence. Think of the money to the PA as a preventative issue.

But I suspect you'll have as hard a time doing that as you will explaining why Herman Cain was such a Tea Party favorite...

In the same way that not every black African American voted for Obama, not every tea partier is a racist bigot. Plus for some he was the 'token' black candidate that gave them more credibility - that in turn might have helped them win the black vote.

Now bringing it back to the important issue: Crackle glaze, does anyone have any recommendations? :D

[BravaAmica]

You can't honestly expect one person to be able to provide an answer about an entire community of diverse individuals! The same question could be asked about the white community, hispanic/latino community, muslim community, etc.

I don't expect an individual to be able to answer this question. I asked because I keep hearing in the news that tradtionally the black community is against marriage equality yet there is no reason given why. For all I know the news sources could be wrong.

[deelaem]

Ah darn, I miss all the fun. It's always funny when someone comes here with a personal ax to grind, and decides to make the thread all about that. I caught the foul stench of mansplaining with this one, although they'll emphatically argue that they're female. It's just all so predictable.

As for me, I gave up nail polish when I finally got smart and gave up the damn fakes. My nails are now ruined because of it, but since I no longer care, it's all good. :D

[Austin]

This legislation pertains to gay rights. But specifically to gay marriage, unless he proposes Federal intervention, he is basically supporting the issue nominally while making no promises to actually do anything about it.

Remember, he is specifically coming forward about gay marriage. For some reason this issue has always been divorced from that of "civil rights", though some do consider this a fundamental civil rights problem.

Here's what you said:

He won't do anything about it. He stated that he "supports it" but does not support Federal intervention in regards to it.

AKA: His support won't translate into any kind of pro-LGBT legislation.

You said "pro-LBGT legislation". That's what I was responding to, as repealing "don't-ask-don't-tell" was pro-LGBT legislation.

[Austin]

I never said it addressed gay marriage. I was responding to an argument that the president would not support pro-GLBT legislation in a way that translated into actual change.

[Rosa]

Partly because anti-gay organizations tactically make a big deal about it: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 1NQTAH.DTL

But also because homophobia exists in Black communities (surprise!) and white people like to pretend that Black people's problems are worse than ours, I think. So you get a lot of words generated about The Problem of Homophobia in the Black Community compared the The Problem of Homophobia in the White Community. Although, you know, white people include Pat Buchanan, Rush Limbaugh, Michele Bachman, and most other prominent homophobes I can think of.

[fundifugee]

Oh, the Mormon apologist is voting for Romney. That's a shocker. Didn't Romney tell a single mother to give up her baby for adoption or she would be excommunicated when he was a bishop? Oh yeah. He did. How the fuck does that recommend him, again? He will sure as hell not do everything he can to help the citizens of the United States - not the women or the non-straight people or those who need the social welfare safety net.

You need a clue in the worst way, because you are spewing utter crap.

What Lisaar said. Yeah, right, help the poor, as long as they are "good" poor people and do what he says to toe the morality line.

Am I the only one who is freaked out by the idea of having somebody with a title of "Bishop" in civil power? Talk about proof that he lets belief supercede rational thought.

[Guest Anonymous]

OMFG, are you serious?!

As a heart attack.

When Hayes became pregnant that year, Romney sat down with her and "said something about the church's adoption agency." Hayes, who recalled that she "wanted to" have the second child, eventually came to the realization that Romney "was urging her to give up her soon-to-be-born son for adoption, saying that was what the church wanted." More from Vanity Fair:

Hayes was deeply insulted. She told him she would never surrender her child. Sure, her life wasn't exactly the picture of Rockwellian harmony, but she felt she was on a path to stability. In that moment, she also felt intimidated. Here was Romney, who held great power as her church leader and was the head of a wealthy, prominent Belmont family, sitting in her gritty apartment making grave demands. "And then he says, 'Well, this is what the church wants you to do, and if you don't, then you could be excommunicated for failing to follow the leadership of the church,'" Hayes recalled. It was a serious threat. At that point Hayes still valued her place within the Mormon Church. "This is not playing around," she said. "This is not like 'You don't get to take Communion.' This is like 'You will not be saved. You will never see the face of God.'" Romney would later deny that he had threatened Hayes with excommunication, but Hayes said his message was crystal clear: "Give up your son or give up your God."

Hayes eventually decided to have the baby, but when she did give birth to her son Dane, he had health problems that required surgery:

Looking past their uncomfortable conversation before Dane's birth, she called Romney and asked him to come to the hospital to confer a blessing on her baby. Hayes was expecting him. Instead, two people she didn't know showed up. She was crushed. "I needed him," she said. "It was very significant that he didn't come." Sitting there in the hospital, Hayes decided she was finished with the Mormon Church.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/1 ... 00865.html

Which makes Dhani_C's constant rah rah Mormonism! that much more disgusting. Like all the major religions, Mormonism has huge problems with sexism.

[freejoytoo]

Don't Mormons believe God lives on Planet Kolob, Jesus came to America and the Garden of Eden was in Missouri? And that Native Americans are Israelites and black people's skin is tainted with sin? And they take all this from someone who read some plates out of a HAT with a STONE who then decided to marry thirty-three women, some of them fourteen years old, after a 'revelation' from God? I don't understand how anyone can believe this.

It wouldn't bother me so much if they hadn't pushed Prop 8.

[BravaAmica]

Partly because anti-gay organizations tactically make a big deal about it: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 1NQTAH.DTL

But also because homophobia exists in Black communities (surprise!) and white people like to pretend that Black people's problems are worse than ours, I think. So you get a lot of words generated about The Problem of Homophobia in the Black Community compared the The Problem of Homophobia in the White Community. Although, you know, white people include Pat Buchanan, Rush Limbaugh, Michele Bachman, and most other prominent homophobes I can think of.

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense.

[valsa]

Don't Mormons believe God lives on Planet Kolob, Jesus came to America and the Garden of Eden was in Missouri? And that Native Americans are Israelites and black people's skin is tainted with sin? And they take all this from someone who read some plates out of a HAT with a STONE who then decided to marry thirty-three women, some of them fourteen years old, after a 'revelation' from God? I don't understand how anyone can believe this.

It wouldn't bother me so much if they hadn't pushed Prop 8.

Meh. I have no love lost for Mormonism but I think the same thing about all religions. Looked at objectively, they're all ridiculous.

[hoipolloi]

I caught the foul stench of mansplaining with this one, although they'll emphatically argue that they're female. It's just all so predictable.

My thoughts exactly. And now the rantings about birth certificates, deficits, and the Constitution - it is all so predictable.

Nail polish. I don't have long fingernails - they don't fit with work -- would a clear or pale shade be better or should I go for the brights? As for toenails, should the polish shade match or is it OK to do something different. I wear sandals a lot, so they would be about as visible as my hands.

[MyNameIsJonas]

I don't expect an individual to be able to answer this question. I asked because I keep hearing in the news that tradtionally the black community is against marriage equality yet there is no reason given why. For all I know the news sources could be wrong.

I read a study/poll that said that the gap between non-whites and whites was very marginal when it comes to support of gay marriage. I'll see if I can find it. I am only one black person, but to offer a little insight, the southern black baptist mindset is prevalent and spans generations. Christianity can be considered a poor man's religion to some and so slaves would hang onto it with both hands, and it got passed down. Not to say that all blacks are like this, because I don't know all of them, but most that I know take church just as seriously as evangelical whites. Just watch any late night church show (like Gino Jennings) and you can see the nonsense first hand.

[mirele]

I've been observing the birthers (birfers) since 2008.

They originally grew out of the Party Unity My Ass people (aka disgruntled Hillary Clinton supporters). But when it became clear that Obama was going to be the candidate, and then after he got elected, the whole birther thing transitioned from sour grapes to OMG OMG OMG he can't be president. Since then, the argument has just transmogrified. I remember being just casually interested, but I turned on a lawyer friend of mine and since he just LOVES electoral law, for the last four years, he's been following the antics of Orly Taitz and the other whackjobs who populate the birfersphere. I get to hear about it occasionally.

These are (as far as I can tell) the different arguments that have been made against Obama. None of them has any legal basis in reality.

1) Obama is not a natural-born citizen because his father was not a citizen. WRONG--he's a natural born citizen because he was born in Hawaii AND his mother was a citizen.

2) Obama is not a citizen because he renounced his citizenship based on some paperwork that his stepfather filled out. WRONG: There's no record that Obama ever renounced his citizenship.

3) Obama is not a citizen because he was born in Kenya. WRONG: Even if he had been born in Kenya (which he wasn't), his mother was a US citizen, making him a natural-born US citizen from birth. He would have had to come back to the US by age 18, but this is all speculation SINCE HE WAS BORN IN HONOLULU, NOT NAIROBI. (This, btw, would have scooped up McCain in 2008, since he was born in the Panama Canal Zone, not the USA.)

4) This is similar to number 1) but it scoops up Romney in the mix: Obama is not a natural-born citizen because both of his PARENTS were not born in the USA. As I said, Romney gets scooped up because his father, George Romney, was born in a Mormon colonia in Mexico.

I'm sure there are other reasons why Obama can't be a natural-born citizen according to these whackjobs, but it gets progressively more and more into the weeds.

For more information than you can shake a stick at, you can go to The Fogbow, the Internet's clearing house for all things birfer: http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/ (link not broken, the lawyers and suchlike would be amused to have FJites lurking)

As for WHY this has happened, I am convinced it can be boiled down to 10 words: "We can't have that black man in our White House." AKA Racism.

ETA: I have two copies of my birth certificate. The old one is a photostat with an affidavit stapled to it. The new one looks just like Obama's.