MS GOP have gone off the deep end.

[ADoyle90815]

Braggnation-You are either extremely immature, self absorbed or just an idiot. I am voting for all three. Yes it is my body and my choice not yours or anyone else. I have worked in Women's healthcare for 35 yrs, I have never had a women with or without children who have decided to die to have a child. My oath is that I save the life that I can. My suggestion to you is to get some consulting regarding your issues.

Seconded. You really need to get counseling to deal with your grief from your miscarriage.

[Sprocket]

Do you realize your tax dollars go to support all kinds of things you might not believe in. Why single out abortion?

I didn't support the invasion of a soverign nation for bogus, trumped up lies that put my father in harms way for 18 months. Where's my refund? I'll take it in denominations of 20 please. Oh that's right, I don't get to decide how my tax dollars are spent. And remind me again where all these free abortions are being handed out?

edited bc it's hard to type and sing at the same time. You're lucky I'm not throwing in lyrics to "the wheels on the bus" here...

[Sprocket]

Seconded. You really need to get counseling to deal with your grief from your miscarriage.

Thirded. And YAY, we get to have the anti-choice debate with someone who can't understand why his/her own experience do not and should not apply to every woman in America. It must a day of the week that end in D-A-Y.

[Witsec7]

I think we had a flounce before we could actually engage in debate.

[AmyP]

My husband and I were discussing this last night. How can a mass of cells, without a fully formed brain, be more important than a woman's rights?

One of the arguments used on Catholic Answers' Forum was that the fetus was human and alive. The poster that used that argument thought it was a slam dunk that no one could defeat. The problem is that sperm and egg are both alive, yet we don't try to save every sperm or get upset over a woman's period. Every cell in our body is human too. We undertand that a fully formed, working brain is needed to conclude sa thing is sapient.

well, a sperm or an unfertilized egg will never develop into a human being. The other cells in the body will not develop into a human being either. An embryo will, in most situations, develop into a human being if you leave it alone in the uterus and let it develop.

That is why there are stiff penalties for disturbing the nest of a bald eagle. Those eggs aren't bald eagles yet, and they are not necessarily alive, but most of them will be bald eagles if cared for and allowed to hatch. Bald eagles are protected, and naturalists seem to all recognize that bald eagle eggs will eventually become bald eagles. As far as I know, nobody is debating the point.

[debrand]

well, a sperm or an unfertilized egg will never develop into a human being. The other cells in the body will not develop into a human being either. An embryo will, in most situations, develop into a human being if you leave it alone in the uterus and let it develop.

That is why there are stiff penalties for disturbing the nest of a bald eagle. Those eggs aren't bald eagles yet, and they are not necessarily alive, but most of them will be bald eagles if cared for and allowed to hatch. Bald eagles are protected, and naturalists seem to all recognize that bald eagle eggs will eventually become bald eagles. As far as I know, nobody is debating the point.

bald eagles are endangered. Humans, not so much. Besides we are a self aware species and can make decisions like that for ourselves.

Sperm are potential human beings, as are the remains of some periods.

[keeperrox]

but i don't want to financially support something i don't believe in. Just as you wouldn't want to support a pro-life movement. its the same thing. I get were everyone is coming from. i do. I was on the other side of the fence years ago. Abortion is where I flipped.

So then you're totally fine with someone having an abortion that they pay for out of their own pocket?

Yes, you went through something traumatic. That doesn't give you any right to have an opinion on another woman's medical decision, though. You're not that special.

[AmyP]

bald eagles are endangered. Humans, not so much. Besides we are a self aware species and can make decisions like that for ourselves.

Sperm are potential human beings, as are the remains of some periods.

sperm are half a potential human being. they will never develop into a human being, no matter where you put them, or how long you wait.

a fertilized egg that has begun dividing is a potential human being and it will develop into a human being if it is implanted in the uterus and is given sufficient time to develop.

the point is that the bald eagle egg is regarded as basically the same thing as the bald eagle, and is given protected status along with the eagle, even though it is not technically alive. When protected status is conferred, potential life (that is already developing) and life are treated the same.

[marmalade]

Well I'm off to find the appropriate cake.

Frankly its the first time I'm ever had a woman tell me my body is not my own, and in those words. Jeez I hope she's got time to polish our toes today.

I call purple glitter! And the right to make decisions for my own womb (well, that's not really much of an issue for me, stuck in the throes of early perimenopause), but let's just make "my" universal and leave it at that.

I personally find it selfish and an unnecessary act of martyrdom to die to save a baby when modern medicine typically allows for both to be saved in dire situations; Michelle Duggar/Josie is a fine illustrative example. Josie was delivered for the specific purpose of saving the life of the mother. Little Josie's own life was only saved due to advances in modern medicine. They were fortunate, but had Michelle become sick just a week or so earlier, Josie likely would not have made it. But they still would have delivered her to save the mother.

Maybe someone in the medical field can answer this, but is it even ethical to allow a mother to die from pre-elcampsia, or other treatable emergency complicaitons if that's her wish? I could see ugly malpractice lawsuits against a hospital by the husband or surviving family members unless the woman had filed a legal directive specifically stating her wishes.

[debrand]

[the point is that the bald eagle egg is regarded as basically the same thing as the bald eagle, and is given protected status along with the eagle, even though it is not technically alive. When protected status is conferred, potential life (that is already developing) and life are treated the same.

Not all animal young are given protected status. For instance, people eat veal and that is not even a cow's fetus. It is a creature with a brain and the ability to feel pain.

Again, we are sapient beings with the ability to decide for ourselves. The eagle is not. That is why we protect and make decisions for it and the calf. Besides an undeveloped eagle fetus(is that what an unhatched eagle is called?) is not dependent on the mom's body for survival.

A blastocytes can not think or feel pain. It's life is dependent on the woman carrying it to term. Because she has a brain to make these decisions and the fetus doesn't, her right to choose wins out.

[dairyfreelife]

Wow. Leave for awhile and come home and now I get to read an explosion. Crazy week.

[BravaAmica]

rape--I just think IMHO that the rape victim is going to be screwed up, no matter what. Why kill the innocent human. That kid could make a childless person very happy. Why not have some good come out of it? No, Ive never been raped and no I can't IMAGINE carrying the rapists kid but I think in my heart I would think its the right thing to do.

health of mother-- As a mother there is NO WAY I would kill off my own baby to save myself. No matter how little the glob of cells were. I see no difference in my own child being 1 day--80 y/o old or a fetus. Its still my baby and i would die for my babies. As any mother would. So for instance if I found out if I had cancer and either I start treatment and abort baby or die. I would choose to die. The same if a truck was racing head on and my kid and I were in the way, I would die to push my kid to safety. I have options for my children to be raised by amazing people. I can't imagine me having to tell them I killed your sibling for myself.

I hope this makes sense

Ask Karen Santourm how that position worked out for her.

[Sola]

having kids and having one die changes your perspective. at least for me. i WAS pro-choice now, no way. it IS a life and its NOT MY body, its the kids. you can't chose to kill of something that isn't yours to begin with.

I have kids. And yes, I have had one die. I had preemie twins and one died at 6 hrs. I am still pro-choice. I will always be pro-choice. I do not have the right to tell another woman what to do with her body and neither do you. If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

[nomi]

BINGO! I just won abortion bingo!

[AmyP]

Not all animal young are given protected status. For instance, people eat veal and that is not even a cow's fetus. It is a creature with a brain and the ability to feel pain.

Again, we are sapient beings with the ability to decide for ourselves. The eagle is not. That is why we protect and make decisions for it and the calf. Besides an undeveloped eagle fetus(is that what an unhatched eagle is called?) is not dependent on the mom's body for survival.

A blastocytes can not think or feel pain. It's life is dependent on the woman carrying it to term. Because she has a brain to make these decisions and the fetus doesn't, her right to choose wins out.

I never said all animal young are given protected status, nor am I arguing that they should. We don't protect the eagle's nest because it cannot make its own decisions, we protect it because we want more eagles to be born in order to prevent extinction, and we regard the unborn eagle as essentially the same thing as the fully formed eagles.

Perhaps a woman's right to choose wins out since she is a human at an advanced stage of development, and the less fully developed human is dependant on her body for survival. I would just prefer that we stop arguing about whether or not the fetus is alive. If direct action is not taken to prevent it, the fetus will develop into a person. Therefore, the choice is to eliminate a person who is not yet fully formed, but who has begun the process of developing into an entirely separate and complete human being.

[Witsec7]

Whats up with the bald eagle analogy? This is the second time I've heard it used in a week to defend outlawing abortion? Is it the new meme? Or perhaps a new talking point delivered by a pundit?

[debrand]

[Perhaps a woman's right to choose wins out since she is a human at an advanced stage of development, and the less fully developed human is dependant on her body for survival.

Bingo! The less fully developed human doesn't have a brain so that it can feel pain or fear. The woman does.

I would just prefer that we stop arguing about whether or not the fetus is alive.

I agree. It doesn't matter if the fetus is alive or not. That has been my point all along.

If direct action is not taken to prevent it, the fetus will develop into a person. Therefore, the choice is to eliminate a person who is not yet fully formed, but who has begun the process of developing into an entirely separate and complete human being.

What is your definition of a person? I am not trying to be a smart ass, just curious

[Cran]

Can there be really an argument over the fetus being "alive"? I mean, it grows, it develops, albeit depending on the mother for continuing to do so. Isn't the question if it is a living HUMAN?

[AmyP]

Whats up with the bald eagle analogy? This is the second time I've heard it used in a week to defend outlawing abortion? Is it the new meme? Or perhaps a new talking point delivered by a pundit?

I think it is an endangered species that comes easily to mind. That was why I used it. The meme I have read was similar, but had something to do with sea turtles, I think. I wasn't sure, and I didn't want to do alot of digging so I picked something I knew was protected, checked to make sure there was a penalty for disturbing the eggs, and went on with the example.

[debrand]

Can there be really an argument over the fetus being "alive"? I mean, it grows, it develops, albeit depending on the mother for continuing to do so. Isn't the question if it is a living HUMAN?

:think:

this was my thinking and maybe it is incorrect. Sperm and cells are alive but they don't have a conscious and neither does a blastocyte.

[AmyP]

Bingo! The less fully developed human doesn't have a brain so that it can feel pain or fear. The woman does.

I agree. It doesn't matter if the fetus is alive or not. That has been my point all along.

What is your definition of a person? I am not trying to be a smart ass, just curious

I don't know that I have a definition of a person- at least not one that I have clearly thought out. I tend to define a fetus as being a person because they will be a person, whether they are at 20 weeks or not is, to me, somewhat irrelevant. What are some other situations that you had in mind?

[Witsec7]

I think it is an endangered species that comes easily to mind. That was why I used it. The meme I have read was similar, but had something to do with sea turtles, I think. I wasn't sure, and I didn't want to do alot of digging so I picked something I knew was protected, checked to make sure there was a penalty for disturbing the eggs, and went on with the example.

Actually its protected and not endangered. There is a difference.

As I said this is the second time I've heard that analogy with regards to abortion. And its the second time I've corrected the person using it with regards to the birds status.

[AmyP]

Actually its protected and not endangered. There is a difference.

As I said this is the second time I've heard that analogy with regards to abortion. And its the second time I've corrected the person using it with regards to the birds status.

i was being sloppy and using the two terms interchangeably- but you are correct of course.

[Gizmola]

Am I smoking crack? WTF do bald eagles have with abortion or eggs or babies or fetal growth or what? Are we playing the "we protect bald eagles but we let women kill teh babeez, Oh Noes!!!!111!!!!" game? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all.

Amy P, I can't figure out if you're pro-choice, pro-life, anti-choice, confused, a troll or a monkey with a keyboard. So just answer this for me:

I have serious bi-polar disorder. My manic periods are basically functioning like everyone else with a bit of impulsiveness here and there. My depressions, however, are suicidal. Not "OMG, Justin Beiber tickets are sold out!!! I"m so going to kill myself!!!" but instead I actually don't remember a time when I haven't thought that suicide wasn't a rational and viable option for me. Like, I keep the pills in the upstairs bathroom closet. I have the moving boxes to pack up my stuff in the second closet. The only thing that keeps those things hidden away is a lovely cocktail of drugs.

I cannot take those drugs while pregnant. I cannot function without them. I don't mean I'll be blue and sad for a few months and then be all happy when I get the baby. I will kill myself. Or I will need to be hospitalized to keep from killing myself. I know this about my condition and myself like I know my name.

If I should get pregnant should I go ahead and go off my drugs and kill myself and the baby? Or may I get an abortion so I can actually live? Not in the "oh, a baby will disrupt my party life" but in the "a baby will disrupt my ability to survive" way. Even my father who is all "it's a baby!!" has promised to drive me to the abortion clinic and hold my hand if I got pregnant.

Is my life worth less than the bald eagle/human egg baby?

[hathorlive]

Is my life worth less than the bald eagle/human egg baby?

Giz....of course your life has less worth than a bald eagle. Women are merely the incubators of the future. If you aren't incubating, you serve no purpose. I chose NOT to incubate.

You and your baby are precious to the GOP until the baby is born then you are just a slut on welfare with a welfare baby to drain our tax dollars.

Braggnation wrote:

rape--I just think IMHO that the rape victim is going to be screwed up, no matter what. Why kill the innocent human. That kid could make a childless person very happy. Why not have some good come out of it? No, Ive never been raped and no I can't IMAGINE carrying the rapists kid but I think in my heart I would think its the right thing to do.

See. This infuriates me. I work with abused children and I hear my coworkers regularly say "this kid is going to be fucked up for life". But you see, I have a friend who was abused as a child. And she's a freaking super human. She has a great job and a great life. Who the fuck are you to dismiss all women who have been raped as screwed up victims? That's like me reading your story and saying "well, all women who have had miscarriages are fucked up and we shouldn't let these screw ups get pregnant again".

You've been drinking the frothy Santorum too long, my friend. I'm glad you all support pregnant rape victims making childless couples happy. Because it's all about everyone BUT the rape victim.