MS GOP have gone off the deep end.

[Sprocket]

darn- I've never listened to Glenn Beck.

I might answer questions in the morning- but probably not before. I'm tired. One thing interests me about this thread- most of you seem to feel that I am wrong to take a soft position on abortion if I believe that it is the same thing as killing a human life. That I should, based on my beliefs, want people to be thrown in jail if they have an abortion. However, earlier in the thread, everyone was all upset because someone else felt that abortion was wrong and should be illegal. The argument in that case was that no one person's moral view should determine what another person was allowed to do with her own body. So I am curious- which position do you really prefer? Because I am, somewhat grudgingly, agreeing with you. I have a moral position, but at this point I am reluctant to support making my moral position the "law of the land" for a variety of reasons.

I can only speak for myself in that it's my opinion that it's no one's damn business what medical decisions go on between a woman and her doctor. It shouldn't be any more illegal for a woman to get an abortion as for a man to get a tumor removed from his lung.

And to BraggNation or whoever at the beginning of the thread... I have two little boys whom I love more than any other human beings on this earth. If my doctor told me that I needed to terminate a pregnacy to save my life so that I could be alive for them vs my family facing a dead "baby plus a dead mommy; sign me up for that abortion.

Usually these threads give me a headache, so I only read a few pages.... but Jericho was a troll, was he not? It's 11pm and I'm foggy on names. Ugh, I agree with a troll. What are the odds?

[emmiedahl]

Braggnation obviously is not aware that miscarriages are quite common and that most women have them.

[Gizmola]

I would never deny you birth control.

pregnancy does take a toll on a womans body, but as long as she eats drinks and stays alive, the pregnancy will march right along without active input from her. I think I've heard that a woman on life support has even managed to sustain a pregnancy, or perhaps that was an episode of ER.....

I assume at this point that your posting in this thread is a huge joke, right? Because no one is this stupid.

[Childless]

I terminated a pregnancy to save my life. It was ectopic. It would have been stupid to continue a pregnancy that would never have resulted in viable infant and quite possibly could have killed me and most certainly would have affected my fertility. I was lucky in that it was caught early and I was able to terminate with medication vs. surgery. If not for that decision on my part, my son would not be here today. Sometimes terminating a pregnancy is the right decision and leads to good things in the future.

[debrand]

OT. Puffins have never looked real to me. They look like stuffed animals. I realize that they are real but they look like something that you would buy in a gift shop.

[Black Aliss]

I'm pro-life. All human life, including Afghans, Iraqis, soldiers, pacifists, rich people, poor people. I object to my tax dollars going to kill people.

I also don't believe you can truly be pro-life without also being pro-choice. The outcome is rarely as good for the child who was unwanted, but whose mother was forced to carry it, as it is for the perhaps unplanned, but wanted child of a mother who was able to make the choice to continue her pregnancy and raise her child because of the existence of a social support network, and yes, I do want my tax dollars going toward a better life for these children.

[Caribou]

I simply don't understand the pro-life position. It is completely indefensible to me. If you're against abortion DON'T HAVE ONE!! Otherwise get the fuck out of my uterus - matters pertaining to it are strictly between me, my health care provider and my partner. Why is that so hard to understand and why the hell is this still being debated in a first world country in the 21st century?

[Sprocket]

I would never deny you birth control.

pregnancy does take a toll on a womans body, but as long as she eats drinks and stays alive, the pregnancy will march right along without active input from her. I think I've heard that a woman on life support has even managed to sustain a pregnancy, or perhaps that was an episode of ER.....

Ah, you weren't around when I was (on the yuku board) in pure panic mode that I was having to drink over a two gallons of water a day to keep my first child's amniotic fluid anywhere near a safe range, going to a specialist at the beginning of the week and my regular OB at the end of the week to have levels checked. Gestational diabetes was no picnic either. The pelvic rest that I was on at the beginning of that pregnancy was no fun because of the placenta previa that was discovered -- the fact that I could bleed out in a short amount of time if the placenta that was covering my cervix was disturbed was enough to give me panic attacks. Yeah, that's all relative, no biggie. Now I wouldn't change a minute of it because I have my son and he's healthy and beautiful... but it was my choice and pregnancy isn't always flowers, rainbows, and unicorns.

ETA: I forgot the extreme anemia that I had. Plus the meds I was on for the gestational diabetes. The insane about of iron I had to take took its toll on my ass... literally. My night nurse saw my hemroids and it's rare that you get a shocked look from an L/D nurse. Yeah, it didn't march right along with little input from me.

[AmyP]

Ah, you weren't around when I was (on the yuku board) in pure panic mode that I was having to drink over a two gallons of water a day to keep my first child's amniotic fluid anywhere near a safe range, going to a specialist at the beginning of the week and my regular OB at the end of the week to have levels checked. Gestational diabetes was no picnic either. The pelvic rest that I was on at the beginning of that pregnancy was no fun because of the placenta previa that was discovered -- the fact that I could bleed out in a short amount of time if the placenta that was covering my cervix was disturbed was enough to give me panic attacks. Yeah, that's all relative, no biggie. Now I wouldn't change a minute of it because I have my son and he's healthy and beautiful... but it was my choice and pregnancy isn't always flowers, rainbows, and unicorns.

ETA: I forgot the extreme anemia that I had. Plus the meds I was on for the gestational diabetes. The insane about of iron I had to take took its toll on my ass... literally. My night nurse saw my hemroids and it's rare that you get a shocked look from an L/D nurse. Yeah, it didn't march right along with little input from me.

true- that sounds like a close call. did the iron make you nauseated? It always had that effect on me.

[Sprocket]

I assume at this point that your posting in this thread is a huge joke, right? Because no one is this stupid.

If - because you won't give your opinion as to when life actually begins- you believe that life begins at conception, my IUD could very well be considered murder as it prohibits a fertilized egg from implanting in my uterus. So maybe you wouldn't deny someone birth control, given whatever you believe.... because there are a lot of people out there who do believe that IUD's should be banned.

[Sprocket]

true- that sounds like a close call. did the iron make you nauseated? It always had that effect on me.

Nope, not nauseated, just incredibly constipated. Wow, TMI on a Saturday night. Sorry, folks.

[emmiedahl]

My pregnancies have never marched along without me either. I was always vomiting for several months to the point that I missed a lot of school and work, then I was exhausted and barely able to function. I have torn so severely in childbirth that I needed surgery. I have sagging breasts and heinous stretch marks. Those are just the beginning. I get really annoyed with people who imply that pregnancy is a 9 month proposition, when anyone who has had a baby knows that the effects are lifelong.

[Boltingmadonna]

AmyP said:

I would never deny you birth control.

Really? Don't you believe that life begins at conception? So you wouldn't try to stop me from using any form of birth control even if fundies claim it might hypothetically under some circumstances cause a fertilized egg not to implant? I want a straight answer, please. Do you accept that hormonal birth control and IUDs are legitimate and should be available to anyone who wants them? Because otherwise you're just lying when you say that. You support and vote for men who will deny me birth control, so you're not innocent in this anyway, unless you plan to vote against Republican senators, congresspeople and governors.

pregnancy does take a toll on a womans body, but as long as she eats drinks and stays alive, the pregnancy will march right along without active input from her.

Have you never spent much time around women who have been pregnant? Sprocket's story is not a rare exception. My daughter had early labor twice and had to be put on bed rest and dosed with a rather scary cocktail of medications designed to hurry up fetal growth and stop her labor. And then with the second one, they changed their minds and decided the baby had to be delivered right away, so they gave her drugs to speed up the labor they'd been trying to stop. My niece has a circulatory condition that could kill her and the fetus with blood clots. She had to be monitored and given injections through her entire pregnancy. You think that didn't take a toll? Is that what you call "marching right along?" Even an uneventful pregnancy doesn't just "march along." It takes active input from the mother's body all the way. You evidently didn't even bother to read or consider my post--just repeated your unsupported assertions. There isn't enough facepalm in the world for this kind of willful ignorance.

[smores]

Amy, I'd love to have a pregnancy that just marches along. My pregnancy was a nightmare that I and my daughter were lucky to survive, after 9 trips to L&D and 14 days spent in the hospital before I gave birth. I'm glad that you live in that nice little bubble where everything is so perfect during pregnancy if people will just let it continue... never mind the fact that a miscarriage, maternal death or stillbirth could even be the ending to that pregnancy, which means it doesn't just march along. What about mothers with an incompetent cervix - they must take painful measures to prevent the end of pregnancy, I guess that's not just marching along, right? And thanks to several studies, it has been shown that multiple pregnancies can sap enough calcium from your bones to cause osteoporosis if you're not actively taking enough calcium during pregnancy; pregnancy is not just easy and it is not a good thing to your body.

I can't believe people this stupid actually vote. Your bird comparison doesn't make sense as you're not forcing the bird to hatch the eggs (if they're unfertilized, they aren't eagles... you don't know until the end.). Your idea of pregnancy is ridiculous - no, it doesn't always just continue - and the fact that you can't realize this stupidity and admit your mistake but instead just ask a ridiculous question about iron is pretty telling to your ignorance.

[longskirtlotsakids]

Really, pregnancy just marches along? Well, then why the hell do we have NICUS and perinatologists and ultrasounds? Send all those silly women home with thier concerns over health and tell them to march on!

OK. Let's just say that the fertilized egg is a fetus and therefor a person. Fine. Now consider the legal issues.

1) The fetus should be, as a human with no medical issues, entitled to a social security card and life insurance. Also possibly heirs, next of kin in a will.

2) If a miscarriage occurs, there must be a full criminal investigation. If a 3 year old girl goes missing or is found dead in a backyard, there is a duty to investigate, yes? So, we must devise a new police force with the right to get up into a woman's vagina and lifestyle to see if she should be blamed for murder. Your uterus- which you mistake as your own private organ- is now under police domain. They can seal it off to investigate.

3) This one's my favorite. All those illegal aliens you fear no longer have to give birth to have an anchor baby- they can have an anchor fetus. After all, their blastocyst is now a US citizen entitled to full protection, health care, and education as a US citizen. How heartless it would be to deport a half inch US citizen that cannot speak up from the uterus of its criminal mother.

4) There will have to be guidelines against fetus abuse. After all, there are child labor laws. Will pregnant women now no longer be able to work if they are tired or the job is strenuous or harmful? Is it abuse if the mother drinks? Smokes?

[desertvixen]

having kids and having one die changes your perspective. at least for me. i WAS pro-choice now, no way. it IS a life and its NOT MY body, its the kids. you can't chose to kill of something that isn't yours to begin with.

I haven't had a child die, but going through the process of pregnancy, childbirth, and the ongoing process of motherhood has only made me MORE pro-choice.

All of them are hard. No one should be forced into any of them. I wouldn't trade my daughter for anything, but I won't deny that she has been and is a lot of work, because I want to make sure we get it right.

[LadyBlue]

A year ago I found myself unexpectedly pregnant. Due to my medical issues, my husband's medical issues and using NFP, it was extremely unlikely I could even get pregnant (the doctors actually told my husband he probably couldn't have more kids). I did consider an abortion. And even my husband, who is actually affected by whatever decision I make, believed it was entirely my choice, although obviously he had a preference. If someone who is actually affected can leave the decision up to the person who has to go through the pregnancy, why the hell do these fucktards think they should have the right to make a decision for women they don't even know?

And yes, I have lost children, I've had at least 12 miscarriages and have 4 living children.

(For the record I chose to keep the baby and he's now nearly 7 weeks old and I can not imagine how resentful I would be of the newborn neediness if I had been forced to have him. As it is, I sometimes take an extra minute in the bathroom when my husband is holding him and then go back and cuddle my baby because I got to CHOSE him)

[formergothardite]

darn- I've never listened to Glenn Beck.

I might answer questions in the morning- but probably not before. I'm tired. One thing interests me about this thread- most of you seem to feel that I am wrong to take a soft position on abortion if I believe that it is the same thing as killing a human life. That I should, based on my beliefs, want people to be thrown in jail if they have an abortion. However, earlier in the thread, everyone was all upset because someone else felt that abortion was wrong and should be illegal. The argument in that case was that no one person's moral view should determine what another person was allowed to do with her own body. So I am curious- which position do you really prefer? Because I am, somewhat grudgingly, agreeing with you. I have a moral position, but at this point I am reluctant to support making my moral position the "law of the land" for a variety of reasons.

Well of course people think that making abortion illegal is horrible. But if you really believe it a fetus is the same as a baby, it is the only logical choice. Have you ever stopped to ponder if mothers who kill their newborns/babies should just be allowed to do that without being punished? If you haven't, but you do do that with abortion, then you need to face that you don't really view a fetus as a person like a baby who is already born.

Honestly, I prefer people to be pro-choice, but if you are going to be pro-life based on the fact that you view a fetus as equal to a baby, then you have some pretty messed up beliefs if you think women should be allowed to kill their babies and not go to jail. But if you have a hard time accepting that women who have abortions are equal to women who kill their newborns, then you really don't view a fetus as a baby.

Edited because I made a mistake and just to mess with that one poster who flipped out because people edit their post. Can't remember the name.

[gilora]

well, a sperm or an unfertilized egg will never develop into a human being. The other cells in the body will not develop into a human being either. An embryo will, in most situations, develop into a human being if you leave it alone in the uterus and let it develop.

That is why there are stiff penalties for disturbing the nest of a bald eagle. Those eggs aren't bald eagles yet, and they are not necessarily alive, but most of them will be bald eagles if cared for and allowed to hatch. Bald eagles are protected, and naturalists seem to all recognize that bald eagle eggs will eventually become bald eagles. As far as I know, nobody is debating the point.

Sorry I couldn't read through the entire thread before posting and I apologize if this has already been stated.

There is no law criminally punishing the bald eagle if it chooses to push the egg out of its nest. The law criminally punishes third parties who decide to interfere in the egg/eagle relationship, just as there are laws criminally punishing those who harm a fetus without the consent of the pregnant woman.

Braggnation, I am sorry for your loss. I am the mother of two, one in kindergarten and one in second grade. I can honestly say that if something happened to me it would DESTROY them and the effects would last well into adulthood. I cannot imagine choosing a fetus over my living children and I think I should have the right to make the decision I believe to be best for my family, just as you should have the right to make the decision you believe is best for your family.

[Sola]

well, a sperm or an unfertilized egg will never develop into a human being. The other cells in the body will not develop into a human being either. An embryo will, in most situations, develop into a human being if you leave it alone in the uterus and let it develop.

Missed this.

Anyway, most embryos are lost. 1 in every 3 conceptions will result in miscarriage. Most of those miscarriages themselves are missed as they are so early, they are just presumed to be periods. Of those 2 out of 3 embryos that survive they can develop into a human and that human can be perfectly healthy, it can be disabled to the extent that it is incompatible with life and anywhere in between those two extremes.

It can also become a calcified mass. It can become a tumour. It can also become a blighted ovum which will implant, but is just an empty sac.

So no, the majority of embryos do not develop into humans.

[AudreyE]

Amy, I'd love to have a pregnancy that just marches along. My pregnancy...

I was on bedrest for 6 months.

[Witsec1]

(((hugs to LadyBlue))) and all the others who have shared. If Braggnation or AmyP are still reading along, I hope they can actually comprehend the points people are making.

darn- I've never listened to Glenn Beck.

I might answer questions in the morning- but probably not before. I'm tired. One thing interests me about this thread- most of you seem to feel that I am wrong to take a soft position on abortion if I believe that it is the same thing as killing a human life. That I should, based on my beliefs, want people to be thrown in jail if they have an abortion. However, earlier in the thread, everyone was all upset because someone else felt that abortion was wrong and should be illegal. The argument in that case was that no one person's moral view should determine what another person was allowed to do with her own body. So I am curious- which position do you really prefer? Because I am, somewhat grudgingly, agreeing with you. I have a moral position, but at this point I am reluctant to support making my moral position the "law of the land" for a variety of reasons.

AmyP - you would probably have been OK until you brought up the bald eagle thing, which is just offensive on many levels. Whether or not you heard it directly from Glenn Beck, or second or third hand or fourth hand, it is a "meme". And even if you by some chance did come up with the bald eagle analogy on your own, it still displays a massive failure to grasp both the environmentalist and pro-choice positions.

It really comes down to the question "Are women human?". You chose to go there with the bald eagle question, so don't be all disingenious here.

[AmyP]

(((hugs to LadyBlue))) and all the others who have shared. If Braggnation or AmyP are still reading along, I hope they can actually comprehend the points people are making.

AmyP - you would probably have been OK until you brought up the bald eagle thing, which is just offensive on many levels. Whether or not you heard it directly from Glenn Beck, or second or third hand or fourth hand, it is a "meme". And even if you by some chance did come up with the bald eagle analogy on your own, it still displays a massive failure to grasp both the environmentalist and pro-choice positions.

It really comes down to the question "Are women human?". You chose to go there with the bald eagle question, so don't be all disingenious here.

The bald eagle thing had nothing to do with women and everything to do with embryos. The analogy had to do with the question are EMBRYOS human, not women. It had nothing to do with women at all. The abortion issue, as a whole, has a GREAT DEAL to do with women. However, the analogy did not. The analogy WAS NOT meant to deal with the abortion issue as a whole.

[formergothardite]

So have you decided why you don't want to treat a fetus as a person yet?

[Cannelle]

pregnancy does take a toll on a womans body, but as long as she eats drinks and stays alive, the pregnancy will march right along without active input from her.

MARCH RIGHT ALONG??? What about those women who, because of that pregnancy, CAN'T eat and drink and stay alive? Have you ever fucking heard of hyperemesis? That's severe vomiting caused by pregnancy that can KILL a woman because it never fucking ends. At my first hospitalization when I was pregnant with my son, I weighed in at 102 pounds. I'm 5'8" tall. Do you have any clue how unhealthy that is? HOW THE FUCK IS THAT MARCHING ALONG WITHOUT INPUT, BECAUSE IT WAS KILLING ME?!????

I'm STILL having complications from that much wanted pregnancy, and the baby is due to turn 10 this summer. Don't fucking tell me that pregnancy is this easy, wonderful, full-of-delight-every-moment process, because it's NOT, not for everyone. I can't even begin to imagine how I would feel about everything I suffered and am still suffering if it hadn't been something I wanted.