MS GOP have gone off the deep end.

[countressrascal]

Here are my issues that I have with this type of discussions. First off GOP is treating all women like we do not have a brain in our head nor enough common sense to know what is the best for us, regarding our healthcare. I have more intelligences than Dougie, whole Duggar and Bates family combined and PP & Zsu plus many more fundie too many to name. So what I decide to do regarding my healthcare should be between me, my healthcare provider, partner and maybe my higher power. Not some stuipd elected men & women, who seem to know what the best is for me. I respect prolife people, as long as they do not try to tell me how to live my life. Something else to think about if men could get pregnant we would not being discuss this or birth control.

Answer someones question as to when life begins-Jews believe it when the kids move out and off the family payroll.

[AmyP]

My husband and I were discussing this last night. How can a mass of cells, without a fully formed brain, be more important than a woman's rights?

One of the arguments used on Catholic Answers' Forum was that the fetus was human and alive. The poster that used that argument thought it was a slam dunk that no one could defeat. The problem is that sperm and egg are both alive, yet we don't try to save every sperm or get upset over a woman's period. Every cell in our body is human too. We undertand that a fully formed, working brain is needed to conclude sa thing is sapient.

my original post related to this comment only. the question- is it human and/or is it alive. that was my goal in this conversation.

[formergothardite]

What is your opinion on that question and why are you semi-pro-life?

[Gizmola]

my original post related to this comment only. the question- is it human and/or is it alive. that was my goal in this conversation.

My question for you is: why don't you just make a declarative statement stating your belief on the matter if you are so interested in the question? Instead, you ramble on about sea turtles or eagles, etc. Again, what is your goal in this conversation?

[debrand]

The reason that I asked for the definition of person is because I've debated with prolifers who argue is that the fetus is a potential person. Eventually, they say, if the mother's pregnancy continues, she will have a child who is self aware. That is true. However, a 'potential' person means that it isn't a person yet. I don't get how a mass of cells without a brain can trump a woman's right to make decisions for her own body. The blastocyte is not a person so it doesn't have rights.

I think that most of the prolifers secretly want to punish women for daring to have sex. If that wasn't true, they would provide free birth control and condoms to all sexually active people.

[ItISjustme]

The reason that I asked for the definition of person is because I've debated with prolifers who argue is that the fetus is a potential person. Eventually, they say, if the mother's pregnancy continues, she will have a child who is self aware. That is true. However, a 'potential' person means that it isn't a person yet. I don't get how a mass of cells without a brain can trump a woman's right to make decisions for her own body. The blastocyte is not a person so it doesn't have rights.

I think that most of the prolifers secretly want to punish women for daring to have sex. If that wasn't true, they would provide free birth control and condoms to all sexually active people.

Exactly! They want to ban abortion but they are also attacking access to birth control and are more interested in shaming single mothers than helping them.

[Swamptribe]

Well, I cracked some chicken eggs recently to make a batch of cupcakes (which were topped with cream cheese icing and crumbled bacon for more forbidden fruit). Did I commit a felony in cracking those eggs (and in eating a teenaged chicken for dinner tonight)? Or are chickens not as worthy of antichoice sentiments because they are a lower class of birds (all raptors are protected by the way, brownie points to the first person who can post why)

Oh, today was the first day of turkey season. A friends daughter shot a beautiful bird? Was it murder, or would it have only been murder if she cracked a turkey egg? Or are turkeys one of those lower class birds too?

I'm sorry, just finding it difficult to get around the stupid of that whole eagle egg analogy

Maybe I should go ask Mr. Owl, he'll be in the backyard again tonight.

[AmyP]

What is your opinion on that question and why are you semi-pro-life?

I can copy the original answer if you want, but I did reference bald eagles, so beware.

I am not really semi pro-life. When I was younger I would have been adamently pro-life and anti-choice. My position has softened because there are situations in which abortion seems to be necessary, and becuase there are situations where I sympathize with someones desire for an abortion even if, strictly speaking, I don't agree.

[Witsec7]

Well, I cracked some chicken eggs recently to make a batch of cupcakes (which were topped with cream cheese icing and crumbled bacon for more forbidden fruit). Did I commit a felony in cracking those eggs (and in eating a teenaged chicken for dinner tonight)? Or are chickens not as worthy of antichoice sentiments because they are a lower class of birds (all raptors are protected by the way, brownie points to the first person who can post why)

Oh, today was the first day of turkey season. A friends daughter shot a beautiful bird? Was it murder, or would it have only been murder if she cracked a turkey egg? Or are turkeys one of those lower class birds too?

I'm sorry, just finding it difficult to get around the stupid of that whole eagle egg analogy

Maybe I should go ask Mr. Owl, he'll be in the backyard again tonight.

The plague?

[AmyP]

My question for you is: why don't you just make a declarative statement stating your belief on the matter if you are so interested in the question? Instead, you ramble on about sea turtles or eagles, etc. Again, what is your goal in this conversation?

debrand wrote:

My husband and I were discussing this last night. How can a mass of cells, without a fully formed brain, be more important than a woman's rights?

One of the arguments used on Catholic Answers' Forum was that the fetus was human and alive. The poster that used that argument thought it was a slam dunk that no one could defeat. The problem is that sperm and egg are both alive, yet we don't try to save every sperm or get upset over a woman's period. Every cell in our body is human too. We undertand that a fully formed, working brain is needed to conclude sa thing is sapient.

my original post related to this comment only. the question- is it human and/or is it alive. that was my goal in this conversation.

[formergothardite]

I can copy the original answer if you want, but I did reference bald eagles, so beware.

I am not really semi pro-life. When I was younger I would have been adamently pro-life and anti-choice. My position has softened because there are situations in which abortion seems to be necessary, and becuase there are situations where I sympathize with someones desire for an abortion even if, strictly speaking, I don't agree.

But WHY are you pro-life? Do you think a fetus is a person and if so, why don't you want to treat it as one?

[Swamptribe]

The plague?

Close enough, we have a winner. They are excellent hunters and help to control vermin.

I love Mr. Owl, love the Osprey, and the bald eagles and the Red Shouldered hawks who visit my yard. I just wish one of them would get around to eating Mr. and Mrs Raccoon, who argue at all hours of the morning.

[Gizmola]

Have you ever had a conversation/debate with another person before?

Let's try this again. You keep stating that the question of when the fetus is human is your goal. Both debrand and I have asked you for your opinion and you can't seem to answer a straightforward question. I'll give you the question two ways. Pick whichever way is easiest for you.

1. I, AmyP, believe life begins at/it is human when __________ ? (fill in the blank)

2. I, AmyP, believe life begins at/it is a human when:

A. When the sperm meets the egg

B. When the fertilized egg implants in the womb

C. When there is a discernible heartbeat

D. When there is quickening

E. When the baby/fetus, etc. is viable outside the womb

F. It lives in its own apartment, pays its own bills and remembers to buy its mommy a birthday present

[formergothardite]

AmyP, if you are pro-life because you view a fetus as a person, then it only makes logical sense that you would be totally against abortion and want to put women(and the people who knew/assisted them) who had abortions in jail for murdering a person. Unless you also believe women should be able to kill their children in in certian situations.

[Witsec7]

Close enough, we have a winner. They are excellent hunters and help to control vermin.

I love Mr. Owl, love the Osprey, and the bald eagles and the Red Shouldered hawks who visit my yard. I just wish one of them would get around to eating Mr. and Mrs Raccoon, who argue at all hours of the morning.

My current location does not give me the multitude of eagles I've had previously, but there are couple nice sized owls in the neighborhood and they do seem to keep the nutria at bay. I usually see one or two baldys every day.

I was going to say they ate the vermin, but I thought plague was a lot more fun :lol:

I just googled eagles egg and fetus and guess what popped up first try?

http://www.dividedstates.com/abortion-eagle’s-egg-vs-human-fetus/

It is illegal to destroy an eagle’s egg. Fines are as high as $5,000 and imprisonment up to 3 years. An eagles egg is not an eagle, many may argue. Regardless of what side of the political or social fence you sit, most would agree this law is a good thing. However, most laws protecting endangered species are driven by and supported by more Liberals than Conservatives. That doesn’t mean to say Conservatives love animals less than Liberals, just that Conservatives have chosen other causes over these, such as support of Pro Life (human life) instead.

An abortion cost around $750, is readily available in most major cities through Liberal supported organizations such as Planned Parenthood.

Many may argue that a fetus is not a human life, as many argue that an eagles egg is not an eagle.

Consequently I'm calling BS on Amy.

edited for additions

[formergothardite]

I have to say Braggwhatever was kind of refreshing in that she just came out and stated her beliefs without all the dancing around the question like most fundies do.

[AmyP]

AmyP, if you are pro-life because you view a fetus as a person, then it only makes logical sense that you would be totally against abortion and want to put women(and the people who knew/assisted them) who had abortions in jail for murdering a person. Unless you also believe women should be able to kill their children in in certian situations.

are you trying to convince me?

[formergothardite]

are you trying to convince me?

I'm trying to understand you. Why are you pro-life? And if it is because you view a fetus as a person, why don't you treat it as one?

[Witsec7]

I have to say Braggwhatever was kind of refreshing in that she just came out and stated her beliefs without all the dancing around the question like most fundies do.

The fact that Amy lied for whatever reason is pretty shabby. Anyway some one needs to get her an extinguisher, her pants appear to be on fire.

[Sprocket]

I don't get people who are against abortions "except...." Either you think people who have abortions are murderers or you don't. Why does the "life" of one fetus trump another... just because the mother has a better sob story for you, it's "life" is more expendable?

[formergothardite]

I do believe it was jericho who pointed out that when pro-life people start making exceptions and not wanting to treat the mother as if she murdered a child that their whole argument falls apart. And he was right.

[Gizmola]

The fact that Amy lied for whatever reason is pretty shabby. Anyway some one needs to get her an extinguisher, her pants appear to be on fire.

I don't know if she actually lied. I think she's just incapable of putting together a coherent declarative statement and backing it up. I do think she believes she's covering all her bases in being pro-life and loving the babies but saying that she won't try to make killing the babies illegal.

I don't get people who are against abortions "except...." Either you think people who have abortions are murderers or you don't. Why does the "life" of one fetus trump another... just because the mother has a better sob story for you, it's "life" is more expendable?

I agree. But I think it's that people have been brainwashed to think "abortion=killing a baby" but they also can't reconcile that with having to force a 12 year old girl to give birth to her father's child. They know the incest situation is horrible and cruel. So, instead of standing up and stating that not only is abortion not killing a baby, but that a woman's life/choices/needs should trump a potential life, which is all a fetus is - potential - they categorize abortions:

TOTALLY OKAY

Incest

Rape (if it's really rape, of course. Rape by your husband doesn't count. Has to be rape by a stranger in a well lighted area while you were wearing a snow suit. Otherwise, you probably invited the attention and it wasn't really rape)

Mother's Life in Danger (though, seriously, only selfish slut mothers would put their health first)

NOT OKAY

Anything else, including for birth defects. If you abort an anencephalic baby then you obviously support offing Grandma when she breaks a hip. You're officially an Obama loving, godless Socialist. You probably support saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, too.

[AudreyE]

braggnation, you had a terrible experience, and naturally it shaped how you feel about things. Let's say I had a terrible experience with a pregnancy that nearly killed me, and therefore I decide to pass a law that all women, including you, will have an IUD forcibly inserted into their uterus so they won't ever get pregnant and have the same experience I did. Would that seem reasonable to you? Why does one person's experience become so important that it determines the choices for everyone?

A fetus isn't part of my body. But my uterus, which the fetus has attached to and is inside of, IS my body. So is the rest of me and all my systems, which are being profoundly affected by the presence of a growing fetus. Every part of me belongs to me. I have a right to life, and a right to make my own decisions about what happens inside my body--just as you do.

I could not agree with this more. Also, I pity the children who's mother dies to protect a clump of cells. My mother died when I was young, and it is something I would never wish on anyone. I would not have given two cares about an embryo, if my mother's life could have been saved by terminating its development.

[kpmom]

I just googled eagles egg and fetus and guess what popped up first try?

http://www.dividedstates.com/abortion-eagle’s-egg-vs-human-fetus/

Consequently I'm calling BS on Amy.

edited for additions

Good find, experiencedd. Interestingly, the article you linked to also called the eagle endangered, rather than protected, just like Amy. So I think we know where she got that very strange, convoluted, unoriginal argument.

[formergothardite]

I don't know if she actually lied. I think she's just incapable of putting together a coherent declarative statement and backing it up. I do think she believes she's covering all her bases in being pro-life and loving the babies but saying that she won't try to make killing the babies illegal.

I agree. But I think it's that people have been brainwashed to think "abortion=killing a baby" but they also can't reconcile that with having to force a 12 year old girl to give birth to her father's child. They know the incest situation is horrible and cruel. So, instead of standing up and stating that not only is abortion not killing a baby, but that a woman's life/choices/needs should trump a potential life, which is all a fetus is - potential - they categorize abortions:TOTALLY OKAY

Incest

Rape (if it's really rape, of course. Rape by your husband doesn't count. Has to be rape by a stranger in a well lighted area while you were wearing a snow suit. Otherwise, you probably invited the attention and it wasn't really rape)

Mother's Life in Danger (though, seriously, only selfish slut mothers would put their health first)

NOT OKAY

Anything else, including for birth defects. If you abort an anencephalic baby then you obviously support offing Grandma when she breaks a hip. You're officially an Obama loving, godless Socialist. You probably support saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, too.

I think you are correct. Very few pro-life people actually want to treat a fetus as a real life when it comes down to it. And I think it is because most of them don't really view a fetus as a person, they just don't want to admit it.