Sermon from my minister that FJ will love

[formergothardite]

First, that wasn't the question I was answering. Second, if I had a good answer for that I would have given one. I do agree there should be female leadership in the church. All I can say is that this is where I'm comfortable worshiping, and if it's considered patriarchal or fundie by FJ then so be it. Not all people who attend the type of church I do are fundie or fundie-lite, just like all atheists aren't the terrible, evil people like fundies say.

So you agree that you go to a church that is patriarchal, and you are comfortable with worshipping in a place that treats all women as lesser than men?

[dairyfreelife]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when they hear someone not use equal level in speech? Like man and wife, instead of husband and wife or man and woman? Respect shouldn't have to be taught to decent adults imo. All husbands and wives should respect each other (All couples should, but I am focusing on marriage due to the man/wife post).

At my old church, women were not leaders either. However, when younger leadership came in and were accepting of women coming to those roles, the many older ladies got all pissy about it saying women shouldn't hold those roles, blah, blah, blah. They did anyway. The church learned to accept it, but I don't go there anymore and haven't for a few years for many reasons. Their views for one.

My point is: does your church not allow women in those roles or are they mostly older women who still buy into the women not being leaders silliness? It's usually one or the other.

[Guest Anonymous]

And since you are still here, I would like to know if you think abortion kills babies, because if you do, then you are saying that women who have abortions are baby killers and do you not see how that is demeaning?

No, because how can you kill something that isn't born yet? But I am pro-life, but I think my definition is vastly different. Pro-life to me means making abortions unnecessary in the first place, by allowing free access to birth control/Plan B and otherwise helping women avoid an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy. I absolutely do not consider abortion murder or a woman who has an an abortion a murderer. That goes way beyond demeaning. I know my posts in the ultrasound thread made me seem otherwise, but I was only pointing out the benefits of an ultrasound. I did not mean to imply anything other than that, and I'm sorry that I did.

[Guest Anonymous]

How are you comfortable in a place that sees you as "lesser" simply because you dont have a dick? Isnt the value of a human being the most important thing?

Because I don't feel "lesser" and feel that I am valued as a human there.

[Guest Anonymous]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when they hear someone not use equal level in speech? Like man and wife, instead of husband and wife or man and woman? Respect shouldn't have to be taught to decent adults imo. All husbands and wives should respect each other (All couples should, but I am focusing on marriage due to the man/wife post).

At my old church, women were not leaders either. However, when younger leadership came in and were accepting of women coming to those roles, the many older ladies got all pissy about it saying women shouldn't hold those roles, blah, blah, blah. They did anyway. The church learned to accept it, but I don't go there anymore and haven't for a few years for many reasons. Their views for one.

My point is: does your church not allow women in those roles or are they mostly older women who still buy into the women not being leaders silliness? It's usually one or the other.

It's actually a little bit of both, but hey years ago, nearly every church told all women to keep silent. But change is coming, just don't expect it overnight. I agree respect shouldn't have to be taught, but we don't live in Utopia.

[formergothardite]

Because I don't feel "lesser" and feel that I am valued as a human there.

How are you not being treated as a lesser if you would not be allowed to be a leader just because you aren't a man?

[Witsec7]

First, that wasn't the question I was answering. Second, if I had a good answer for that I would have given one. I do agree there should be female leadership in the church. All I can say is that this is where I'm comfortable worshiping, and if it's considered patriarchal or fundie by FJ then so be it. Not all people who attend the type of church I do are fundie or fundie-lite, just like all atheists aren't the terrible, evil people like fundies say.

Without women in leadership your church is run as top down patriarchy. No matter how much you whine and pout, it doesn't change that reality. I spend a bit of time posting with your fellow Alabamians, all of whom claim they aren't fundy or fundy lite, and none of whom choose to recognize that their churches are tools of the patriarchy, just as the women who sit silent in those pews are tools of that same patriarchy. You may not feel lesser, but you are. You don't have the physical attribute, a penis, that would give you or any other women a step up into the pulpit.

Oh and please don't sing that old song about being pro life, but wanting contraception to be available, you need some syrup on your waffles.

I absolutely do not consider abortion murder or a woman who has an an abortion a murderer. That goes way beyond demeaning. I know my posts in the ultrasound thread made me seem otherwise, but I was only pointing out the benefits of an ultrasound.

So tell us what you really think about a woman who has had an abortion of convenience? I'm interested. I had one, no regrets, no guilt, no mental health problems.

Sheesh where the hell do these people come from?

[formergothardite]

No, because how can you kill something that isn't born yet? But I am pro-life, but I think my definition is vastly different. Pro-life to me means making abortions unnecessary in the first place, by allowing free access to birth control/Plan B and otherwise helping women avoid an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy. I absolutely do not consider abortion murder or a woman who has an an abortion a murderer. That goes way beyond demeaning. I know my posts in the ultrasound thread made me seem otherwise, but I was only pointing out the benefits of an ultrasound. I did not mean to imply anything other than that, and I'm sorry that I did.

Most people who say they are pro-life mean that they are against all abortions and think they should be illegal. That is what caused the confusion.

[formergothardite]

In your church it doesn't matter if a woman is better qualified to be a leader than a man, the man will always be chosen and the women will always be told to sit back down and let the men make the decision. Just because you don't "feel" it, doesn't make it any less a fact that women are treated as lesser in your church.

[Guest Anonymous]

So you agree that you go to a church that is patriarchal, and you are comfortable with worshipping in a place that treats all women as lesser than men?

Yes. But I don't see women as being treated as lesser. I know, I know, FJ sees in differently. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one because we keep going around in circles asking the same questions and getting the same answers.

[Guest Anonymous]

Without women in leadership your church is run as top down patriarchy. No matter how much you whine and pout, it doesn't change that reality. I spend a bit of time posting with your fellow Alabamians, all of whom claim they aren't fundy or fundy lite, and none of whom choose to recognize that their churches are tools of the patriarchy, just as the women who sit silent in those pews are tools of that same patriarchy. You may not feel lesser, but you are. You don't have the physical attribute, a penis, that would give you or any other women a step up into the pulpit.

Oh and please don't sing that old song about being pro life, but wanting contraception to be available, you need some syrup on your waffles.

So tell us what you really think about a woman who has had an abortion of convenience? I'm interested. I had one, no regrets, no guilt, no mental health problems.

Sheesh where the hell do these people come from?

I'll answer it anyway. It's her body, her choice, and none of my business, and I don't think any lesser of her for it.

[formergothardite]

Yes. But I don't see women as being treated as lesser. I know, I know, FJ sees in differently. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one because we keep going around in circles asking the same questions and getting the same answers.

But this is like saying well I see the sky as green with polka-dots and you will have to just agree to disagree because I'm going to refuse to look at all facts.

How is saying women are never allowed to be a leader even if she is more qualified than a man not treating her as a lesser? If you want to fight the evils a patriarchy (which you seemed to want to do at the beginning of this thread) this is a question you need to face.

[Witsec7]

'll answer it anyway. It's her body, her choice, and none of my business, and I don't think any lesser of her for it.

And your minister and fellow church goers are good with it?

[Guest Anonymous]

And your minister and fellow church goers are good with it?

I know there are people on both sides of the fence. But my conviction is just that...mine. I don't need it validated by anyone.

[Lainey]

All of us involved in this got a rude awakening on the dangers of the fundie lifestyle. It was ugly to say the least. A lot of people where hurt and families were pitted against each other and torn apart. It got so bad most of us deleted our various social network accounts and created new ones, and some left the area.

Finally, something interesting to contribute. I'm not going to snark on you for not leaving your church immediately, because that's not realistic and then I'd have to go after all the Catholics on the board, as well.

So anyway, I'm just curious as to how this one abusive asshole's treatment of his wife led to everything you posted which I've quoted above. I don't really understand.

[formergothardite]

Genie, if you had a daughter who told you one day that she when she grew up she wanted to be a leader in your church, how would you explain to her that no matter what she did, she would never be good enough to be a church leader because she isn't a man?

And I don't expect you to up and leave a church immediately, just admit that you go to and are comfortable with a church that treats women less than men.

[Witsec7]

I know there are people on both sides of the fence. But my conviction is just that...mine. I don't need it validated by anyone.

You didn't answer my question. Your avoidance indicates that your are not out amongst your fellow pew sitters about your opinion regarding abortion.

[Guest Anonymous]

But this is like saying well I see the sky as green with polka-dots and you will have to just agree to disagree because I'm going to refuse to look at all facts.

How is saying women are never allowed to be a leader even if she is more qualified than a man not treating her as a lesser? If you want to fight the evils a patriarchy (which you seemed to want to do at the beginning of this thread) this is a question you need to face.

I have already answered that question, but I'll say it again.....because I don't feel the work we do makes us lesser. And when I say patriarchy, I'm referring to IFB and the like who do treat women like property. I don't expect anybody to agree with my beliefs. I also get the fact that you don't like me or anything I have said. But the same questions are being asked and the same answers are given. Can we please move on? Surely, I'm not the only thing you find snark-worthy today.

[valsa]

I have already answered that question, but I'll say it again.....because I don't feel the work we do makes us lesser. And when I say patriarchy, I'm referring to IFB and the like who do treat women like property. I don't expect anybody to agree with my beliefs. I also get the fact that you don't like me or anything I have said. But the same questions are being asked and the same answers are given. Can we please move on? Surely, I'm not the only thing you find snark-worthy today.

So their patriarchy is bad, but your patriarchy is okay??

[Guest Anonymous]

You didn't answer my question. Your avoidance indicates that your are not out amongst your fellow pew sitters about your opinion regarding abortion.

I wasn't avoiding the question. The congregation is a mix of both pro-life and pro-choice. So, yes, there are those that disagree with me, and have told me so.

[Lainey]

Finally, something interesting to contribute. I'm not going to snark on you for not leaving your church immediately, because that's not realistic and then I'd have to go after all the Catholics on the board, as well.

So anyway, I'm just curious as to how this one abusive asshole's treatment of his wife led to everything you posted which I've quoted above. I don't really understand.

Yes, let's move on to this. I think it got missed when the page turned.

[Guest Anonymous]

Genie, if you had a daughter who told you one day that she when she grew up she wanted to be a leader in your church, how would you explain to her that no matter what she did, she would never be good enough to be a church leader because she isn't a man?

And I don't expect you to up and leave a church immediately, just admit that you go to and are comfortable with a church that treats women less than men.

I tell her if that's what she wanted to do then go for it, and would fully support her. I will not admit that my church treats women less than men. I won't admit to something I don't believe.

[emmiedahl]

geniebelle, what you have described is patriarchy by the definition.

I personally think it is okay to belong to a church that you agree with except for a few details. I'm not going to stop being Jewish because of patriarchy in some Orthodox sects, I understand not wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to religion. But you are part of the problem if you don't see the prohibition on female leadership as a problem. That is patriarchy. It might be less directly abusive than IFB patriarchy, but it is not something "that FJ will love", to quote you.

[Guest Anonymous]

So their patriarchy is bad, but your patriarchy is okay??

In my opinion, yes.

[Witsec7]

I wasn't avoiding the question. The congregation is a mix of both pro-life and pro-choice. So, yes, there are those that disagree with me, and have told me so.

You never mentioned how your minister felt, or if you were out. I'm aware that church members can have beliefs that differ with a dogma that is preached. My question remains, are you out among your fellow pew sitters? When the church preaches no abortion, do you add your dissenting voice or remain silent?