Sermon from my minister that FJ will love

[valsa]

I'm not going to stop being Jewish because of patriarchy in some Orthodox sects, I understand not wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to religion.

I think there's a difference between a "church" and a "religion". You can leave a specific Christian church or Jewish temple and not leave the Christian or Jewish religion.

[kpmom]

I tell her if that's what she wanted to do then go for it, and would fully support her. I will not admit that my church treats women less than men. I won't admit to something I don't believe.

But that's just it, geniebell. Your daughter couldn't go for it. She wouldn't be allowed.

[formergothardite]

I have already answered that question, but I'll say it again.....because I don't feel the work we do makes us lesser. And when I say patriarchy, I'm referring to IFB and the like who do treat women like property. I don't expect anybody to agree with my beliefs. I also get the fact that you don't like me or anything I have said. But the same questions are being asked and the same answers are given. Can we please move on? Surely, I'm not the only thing you find snark-worthy today.

You haven't really answered the question, though, you just keep saying that you don't "feel" like it isnt' making women lesser by telling them that not having a penis disqualifies them from leadership. You haven't explained how that isn't treating them as less than men. If women are equal to men, then why can't they do the same jobs as men? Why can't people do what they are best qualified for, why do they have to be seperated?

I don't dislike you. I think that you just don't want to look hard at your the church you are supporting and accept that it is treating women as less than men. And I find it very interesting when people flat out refuse to look at facts about their beliefs/religion objectively. And that is what you are doing.

And you would tell your daughter to go for something knowing that she would never be allowed to do it because your church doesn't believe women are capable of being a deacon or a pastor? What will you say when you comes crying to you when she finds out that no matter what she does, in the eyes of your church, just being a women means that she will never be able to be a deacon/pastor? How will you explain that she isn't being treated as a lesser person, even if she is qualified an capable of doing the job?

[AudreyE]

In my opinion, yes.

Okay, the work you do is equal to the work men do. I'd agree, but you know that most men do not agree. Men give women the jobs they don't want to do.

But regardless... what really makes you unequal is your level of choice. You cannot choose to do the work the men do. You do not have the right.

[emmiedahl]

I think there's a difference between a "church" and a "religion". You can leave a specific Christian church or Jewish temple and not leave the Christian or Jewish religion.

True, I go to a UU church and a Reform temple. But I would still be Jewish, even if Orthodox was the only denomination. I believe in the Jewish version of life, kwim? So I understand a bit why she won't flee her religion because of this. Although, I don't understand why she thinks it is somehow admirable.

[Guest Anonymous]

Finally, something interesting to contribute. I'm not going to snark on you for not leaving your church immediately, because that's not realistic and then I'd have to go after all the Catholics on the board, as well.

So anyway, I'm just curious as to how this one abusive asshole's treatment of his wife led to everything you posted which I've quoted above. I don't really understand.

The abusive asshole was just the beginning. I don't know how much of this is fact, but from what I have been told, there was a group of uber fundies (think FLDS minus the polygamy, meets Gothard, meets KKK) organizing and harassing people. That's what the abusive bastard was getting into. I'm sorry, but I can't go into any more details. I made a promise, and have to keep it.

EDITED for clarification

[formergothardite]

It really isn't that big of a leap to go from saying women are capable of leading in the church, men need to do that for them. To saying that women can't make any decisions, men need to do it for them. That is why Genie acting like her church is all innocent and isn't harming women is so dangerous.

[valsa]

So I understand a bit why she won't flee her religion because of this.

But that kinda my point- it's not her religion. It's one church. There are thousands more in her denomination (whatever that is) Hundreds of thousands more in Christianity.

[Buzzard]

Change comes when people ask questions and speak up. Have you approached the minister and asked if he would be open to it? Perhaps a woman could start small and take a small leadership role, like being in charge of charitable donations or a sermon once a month. The role could be opened up to the congregation an hopefully someone would step up and claim it.

If he says "no" then you know where the church is... and you need to determine if thats still a place youre comfortable with.

[valsa]

In my opinion, yes.

Good thing you don't have any credibility to lose with this. An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

[AudreyE]

But that kinda my point- it's not her religion. It's one church. There are thousands more in her denomination (whatever that is) Hundreds of thousands more in Christianity.

Yes, and most Biblical scholars agree that the most widely-quoted patriarchal scripture by "Paul" regarding how women should behave was actually written by an anonymous punk pretending to be Paul, so it would be very easy to be Christian and totally ignore that garbage... unless you're fundie.

[emmiedahl]

Yes, and most Biblical scholars agree that the most widely-quoted patriarchal scripture by "Paul" regarding how women should behave was actually written by an anonymous punk pretending to be Paul, so it would be very easy to be Christian and totally ignore that garbage... unless you're fundie.

True (both of you quoted).

I agree with Buzzard--if you really love the theology, why not start nudging in a less patriarchal direction. Unless, of course, you are happy being a second class citizen...

[Guest Anonymous]

You haven't really answered the question, though, you just keep saying that you don't "feel" like it isnt' making women lesser by telling them that not having a penis disqualifies them from leadership. You haven't explained how that isn't treating them as less than men. If women are equal to men, then why can't they do the same jobs as men? Why can't people do what they are best qualified for, why do they have to be seperated?

I don't dislike you. I think that you just don't want to look hard at your the church you are supporting and accept that it is treating women as less than men. And I find it very interesting when people flat out refuse to look at facts about their beliefs/religion objectively. And that is what you are doing.

And you would tell your daughter to go for something knowing that she would never be allowed to do it because your church doesn't believe women are capable of being a deacon or a pastor? What will you say when you comes crying to you when she finds out that no matter what she does, in the eyes of your church, just being a women means that she will never be able to be a deacon/pastor? How will you explain that she isn't being treated as a lesser person, even if she is qualified an capable of doing the job?

Then I don't know how else to answer your question as far as making women feel lesser. The last time I tried to explain that in detail, this thread snowballed out of control. But, I'll answer that with question. Why do Catholics not leave the church if the don't believe the church policy about women becoming priests?

As far as having a daughter who wanted to be a minister, if she joined another church and became a minister, I would fully support her. Would any of the mothers here do any different?

[AudreyE]

Why do Catholics not leave the church if the don't believe the church policy about women becoming priests?

I'm sorry if I've missed something, because this has become a long thread. Are you saying that you do not believe your church's policy? I thought you were pretty sold by the idea that women should not lead a congregation, but that's okay, because their BS jobs are just as awesome.

I mean, sure, I know several women who were raised Catholics, and they all agree the policy regarding women is ridiculous, and several actually have left the church, but some have stayed, because it's what's familiar. They wouldn't argue for the practice, though, which is what you're doing here, so it seems to be a different situation.

[emmiedahl]

A lot of Catholics are trying to change the church from the inside. Many attend more liberal Catholic churches, which valsa suggested. Others retain Catholic beliefs and go to UU or other churches.

I have never seen a Catholic at Freejinger claim that we will love their church. I think that is why you are getting such a negative response--the implication that we should love patriarchs who decide out of the goodness of their heart not to abuse us.

[Guest Anonymous]

Some very good points have been made here, and I get what y'all are saying. Some of the things said are making me question things, and I do now feel somewhat conflicted. Trust me your comments, even the snarky ones have helped me see things in a different light. And for that I thank you.

[Witsec1]

Some very good points have been made here, and I get what y'all are saying. Some of the things said are making me question things, and I do now feel somewhat conflicted. Trust me your comments, even the snarky ones have helped me see things in a different light. And for that I thank you.

Fair enough.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm sorry if I've missed something, because this has become a long thread. Are you saying that you do not believe your church's policy? I thought you were pretty sold by the idea that women should not lead a congregation, but that's okay, because their BS jobs are just as awesome.

I mean, sure, I know several women who were raised Catholics, and they all agree the policy regarding women is ridiculous, and several actually have left the church, but some have stayed, because it's what's familiar. They wouldn't argue for the practice, though, which is what you're doing here, so it seems to be a different situation.

You just hit the nail on the head....it's what I'm comfortable with.

[formergothardite]

Then I don't know how else to answer your question as far as making women feel lesser. The last time I tried to explain that in detail, this thread snowballed out of control. But, I'll answer that with question. Why do Catholics not leave the church if the don't believe the church policy about women becoming priests?

As far as having a daughter who wanted to be a minister, if she joined another church and became a minister, I would fully support her. Would any of the mothers here do any different?

I have no idea why the Catholics don't. I personally would.

But how would you explain to your young daughter who went and told the pastor that one day she wanted to grow up and be a deacon at YOUR church, and he just laughed and told her women couldn't do things like that because she is female. She could go take care of babies or cook or maybe run a women's study, but never could she be a deacon or pastor. How would you explain that your church is not treating her as lesser because she is a woman.

[valsa]

You just hit the nail on the head....it's what I'm comfortable with.

Meh. I thought that was crap reasoning in the thread about pedophile priests and it's not smelling any sweeter here.

[Buzzard]

Fair enough.

Agreed.

We are all entitled to be treated with respect. If your church doesnt give it to you demand it. If that doesnt change it, re evaluate your circumstances. We all have a certain level of BS we're willing to put up with to get what we want. But look to your left and to your right, if you see women or young girls there that dont necessarily have the option of standing up question if its right for you to allow them to remain subjugated.

[Witsec7]

Why do Catholics not leave the church if the don't believe the church policy about women becoming priests?

I did. But I also let the priest know why I was leaving, because I had two reasons, birth control and female priests.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have no idea why the Catholics don't. I personally would.

But how would you explain to your young daughter who went and told the pastor that one day she wanted to grow up and be a deacon at YOUR church, and he just laughed and told her women couldn't do things like that because she is female. She could go take care of babies or cook or maybe run a women's study, but never could she be a deacon or pastor. How would you explain that your church is not treating her as lesser because she is a woman.

You know what, at this point, I really don't know..I really and truly don't know. But, I can't see myself telling her not to something she feels passionate about.

[valsa]

You know what, at this point, I really don't know..I really and truly don't know. But, I can't see myself telling her not to something she feels passionate about.

How is it you cannot see the very obvious answer staring you right in the face? The solution isn't you telling her not to do something she feels passionate about, it's changing to an environment where she can do what she feels passionate about and succeed.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't know...maybe it's because I'm dumber than a rock. Maybe because it's because I don't want to step outside my comfort zone. Maybe it's because I've spent the vast majority of my life there. I DON'T KNOW! I know the answers seem obvious to you, but they aren't to me. I'm sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but it's the best answer I have right now. But all of the comments made here today have gotten to me an opened my eyes and making me realize that perhaps I'm holding on to an antiquated way of life that needs to change.