Sermon from my minister that FJ will love

[formergothardite]

This thread reminded me of the person who came here and expected us to be all "Yeah! You are doing great!" because she smiled at somebody who might have been gay. Anybody remember who it was?

[kpmom]

This thread reminded me of the person who came here and expected us to be all "Yeah! You are doing great!" because she smiled at somebody who might have been gay. Anybody remember who it was?

Wasn't that Miss Raquel on her blog? I get confused over who is who too, so I may be wrong on that.

geniebell, if you haven't flounced; I had said upthread I believe your church is just as Patriarchal as what your minister was supposedly preaching against with his "How to treat women" sermon. I know you were busy swearing and asking people to kiss your ass to answer that, but I'm wondering what your opinion on that is.

[formergothardite]

It sounds like somthing Miss Raquel would say, but for some reason I thought it was somebody who came here to announce "I am so Christ-like! I smiled at a maybe gay person!"

Smiled at a gay person needs to be one of the tags under our names. LOL

And I do hope that geniebell stops cussing and telling us to fuck off long enough to answer your question. Telling women that they can't be a leader over anything but food, children and other women just because they don't have a penis is Patriarchal.

[desertvixen]

It sounds like somthing Miss Raquel would say, but for some reason I thought it was somebody who came here to announce "I am so Christ-like! I smiled at a maybe gay person!"

Didn't OMOH start out that way? Or maybe itsthatonegirl?

It was definitely someone who came here to tell us.

[valsa]

This thread reminded me of the person who came here and expected us to be all "Yeah! You are doing great!" because she smiled at somebody who might have been gay. Anybody remember who it was?

It was Openmindheart, one of our other little rug shitters from yesterday.

[Guest Anonymous]

It was Openmindheart, one of our other little rug shitters from yesterday.

What in the world was going on yesterday? Did all of the fundies/fundie apologists get together and have extra-extra-crazy flakes for breakfast?

[valsa]

At first I thought it might be a full moon but it's actually a new moon tonight. Maybe someone released something into the water that only affects people already predisposed to be crazy fundies?

[Austin]

No of course I didn't. I just wanted to post that I saw a little bit of progress I saw when it comes to other conservative Christian denominations and the patriarchal movement...that is all. I definitely wasn't looking for praise or a gold star for the outreach program I mentioned. That was mainly a preemptive strike when someone asked if women were deacons or elders in my, because I thought a simple no would lead to a round of snarking. Well, it did anyway and snowballed into this mess. After going back and re-reading everything in this topic, I realize my mistakes, and I'm ashamed of the things I said. As my final post in this thread, I sincerely apologize for starting this thread and everything I said after. I was wrong and fully realize that. I have a great respect for FJ for your stance on quiverfull, patriarchy, Gothard/ATI, Vision Forum, etc. I know my opinions on some subjects are very different than most, but from this point forward, I promise not to start anything like this again. Again, I'm sorry. Can you forgive me for the terrible way I acted?

You haven't offended me, so forgiveness is not an issue.

But I think you miss the point that many FJers (not all, because not all FJers share any one opinion) consider any level of patriarchy to be unacceptable and horrific. That's why many of us fail to see any real difference between extreme fundie and fundie-lite. Both are complementarian systems based on enforcing the practical inequity of men and women. Fundies may say I need to stay at home and have seventeen babies and wear skirts. Fundie-lites may say I can go to work if my headship agrees, wear jeans and trendy clothes, and even use birth control. However, despite the fact that I may be smarter or better suited to being in a leadership position than many men in my church, I am not eligible for any of those positions because I do not possess the almight "Y" chromosome. I can teach Sunday School to children or work in the nursery. If a fundie-lite church is really liberal, I may be able to pass the communion plates. Whoo-hoo!

So although there may be differences in the practices between the two places on the spectrum, and one is far less offensive, both are equally insidious. We don't consider expansion into fundie-lite® territory "progress".

[formergothardite]

Now I remember Openmind doing that. It was in that thread where she started off all sweet and saying she was sorry for her actions and ended with her angry and cussing.

[Lainey]

:shock: :shock: I was just wondering what you thought about this topic (don't ask me why), so I think it really really must be. :?

I just wanted to say that...I feel really special about this. :mrgreen:

[DistantStar]

Never mind smiling at them, I've had conversations about defrauding ice skaters with people who I know damn well are gay. It turns out we have similar tastes in skaters. Quite entertaining, really.

We recently had a substitute priest come in while our regular guy was out of town on some church thing. Not only was she female, but her current church is in Utah. I don't know how she does it. But the patriarchal types can also kiss my ass, she's wonderful!

[Guest Anonymous]

It was Openmindheart, one of our other little rug shitters from yesterday.

I wonder if we have had an influx of fundies make their way over here from the TLC boards and imagine this board is something a bit different to what it actually is.

An awful lot of newbies are shitting on the rug lately, then pointing to the excrement and looking round for approval and applause....

[valsa]

I wonder if we have had an influx of fundies make their way over here from the TLC boards and imagine this board is something a bit different to what it actually is.

An awful lot of newbies are shitting on the rug lately, then pointing to the excrement and looking round for approval and applause....

Yeah, I've kinda been wondering where all the newbies are coming from. Some seem to "get" FJ but a lot of them make me wonder how the hell they thought people here would embrace their fundie views.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I wonder if we have had an influx of fundies make their way over here from the TLC boards and imagine this board is something a bit different to what it actually is.

An awful lot of newbies are shitting on the rug lately, then pointing to the excrement and looking round for approval and applause....

You know, my 2 year old gets applause for shitting but ONLY WHEN HE DOES IT IN THE TOILET (which is rare). *ahem*

I think there was a special on Nature's Miracle last week. It'll help get the smell out, my mom swears by it. ;o)

[Guest Anonymous]

I know I said this was my last post here, but I wanted to answer a question. Someone asked what would my minister do if a woman who had been abused came to him. Well...there was something that happened a few years ago to someone dear to me. I have her permission to tell just this small part of the story, but was asked to keep her name and other details private. I want to say right off the bat that this story isn't about me, and it's not an attempt to brag about how goodie-goodie I am. This is strictly about my friend and what she has been through.

My friend's husband wasn't happy with our church, and was turning all full-on fundie. My friend on the other hand wasn't drinking the kool-aid, so he beat her. She took her kids and ran. She called me and begged me to help her. I did. But I also brought along my sister, BIL, and BIL's brother for protection in case the bastard followed followed her. I took her (BIL's BIL was with me) to the hospital while my sister watched her kids. After she checked out ok, she wanted to see our minister & his wife. I took her to their house. My minister & his wife were outraged to say the least. We all prayed for her. My minister then told her to take her kids and leave, and that she was welcome to stay with him. We all advised her to press charges, file a restraining order, and file for divorce. She was also told to get professional counseling...not from the church but from a professional therapist. It's been a few years now, and she is divorced. As a single mom, she is struggling, but she is getting the help and support she and her kids need.

As to what happened to the bastard that beat her...well...he got a big dose of redneck justice courtesy of her brother. My minister ripped him a new one as well. From what I was told, he was given the whole "this is not how a Christian man treats his wife" speech and was told to apologize, turn himself in, and take what was coming to him. He's now in jail for a variety of things including assault.

All of us involved in this got a rude awakening on the dangers of the fundie lifestyle. It was ugly to say the least. A lot of people where hurt and families were pitted against each other and torn apart. It got so bad most of us deleted our various social network accounts and created new ones, and some left the area.

Again, I'm not bragging on myself or trying to seek attention, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. This isn't about me at all. I love my friend dearly, and would never turn her story into something about me.

[formergothardite]

You took the time to write all that, yet you failed to address how refusing women leadership roles only because they don't have a penis isn't patriachal and how your church is any better than the people we snark on.

[Elle]

I agree wholeheartedly, but unfortunately people still don't get it! This was preached to the whole congregation, and was only part of the overall sermon this morning. This part IMO was in response to a topic that came up during a meeting of the deacons and elders about the concerns they have about the growing patriarchal movement. My uncle is a deacon in our church & I overheard him mention things discussed in that meeting. So, I'm assuming that had something to do with it.

It's positive change happening in steps. If there's any need to basically lecture the men to not be patriarchal assholes, then patriarchy is still too big within that church to put women in leadership roles overnight and not expect those patriarchs to break away into their own church. In this case, change happening slower than overnight might reach those who are causing the problem, and might turn their hearts and prevent their wives and daughters from living dismal lives of forced servitude.

What's really encouraging is that the deacons and elders themselves recognized this problem without women having to rise up and complain. When patriarchy is stomped out, hopefully there won't be any problem at that point with women moving into those roles. It sounds like the leaders within this church view women as equals but may realize that moving women into the leader roles right now much cause the problem people to break away, and that could put the women in those families in danger.

What would FJ prefer to happen here? Women to move into leadership roles today and those patriarchal families breaking away and those women being screwed? Or slow change that will maybe change the hearts of the asshole men who think women are second-class? The ideal, that women could move into leadership right this second and no one bats a lash, isn't realistic. So which of the realistic options is better? Or, should I ask, which is the lesser of two evils?

[formergothardite]

And since you are still here, I would like to know if you think abortion kills babies, because if you do, then you are saying that women who have abortions are baby killers and do you not see how that is demeaning?

[Buzzard]

You took the time to write all that, yet you failed to address how refusing women leadership roles only because they don't have a penis isn't patriachal and how your church is any better than the people we snark on.

And further, why you are still a part of a church that when you seem to recognize that patriarchy is wrong? You start this whole thread pointing out that your minister said something that is obvious to the vast majority of the population yet accept a patriarchal church based on your silence. If you do not accept the fact that women hold no authority then LEAVE. If you do, bless your heart, you'll find few friends here.

I'm not even touching the abortion thing. We've chased our tails on this one too many times. You cant rationalize belief on that one.

[valsa]

I hate how this is becoming an attack on your church. It's positive change happening in steps. If there's any need to basically lecture the men to not be patriarchal assholes, then patriarchy is still too big within that church to put women in leadership roles overnight and not expect those patriarchs to break away into their own church. In this case, change happening slower than overnight might reach those who are causing the problem, and might turn their hearts and prevent their wives and daughters from living dismal lives of forced servitude.

What's really encouraging is that the deacons and elders recognized this problem without women having to rise up and complain. When patriarchy is stomped out, hopefully there won't be any problem at that point with women moving into those roles.

Ugh. Can someone please read the riot act on this one? I'm running on 3 hours sleep and I'm afraid I'd barely be coherent (other than the profanity, of course)

I will say this- Gee, I'm so glad that, according to the bolded sentence, you are willing to graciously wait until the end of goddamn time for us to be able to move into leadership positions. Maybe. Hopefully.

[luckylibrarian]

he was given the whole "this is not how a Christian man treats his wife" speech

Anyone else think that speech was another load of patriarchal bullshit? Because that's what it sounds like to me...

[holierthanyou]

I hate how this is becoming an attack on your church.

Elle, I think the reason people are 'attacking' (to use your word) her church is because she is the one who put it out there about how wonderful it was, and then seemed to keep taking it a few steps further when trying to defend herself. Her attitude is obviously not doing anything to help. I don't feel sorry for her at all, and am confused why you would feel bad/be sorry that you think her church is being 'attacked'.

[Guest Anonymous]

You took the time to write all that, yet you failed to address how refusing women leadership roles only because they don't have a penis isn't patriachal and how your church is any better than the people we snark on.

First, that wasn't the question I was answering. Second, if I had a good answer for that I would have given one. I do agree there should be female leadership in the church. All I can say is that this is where I'm comfortable worshiping, and if it's considered patriarchal or fundie by FJ then so be it. Not all people who attend the type of church I do are fundie or fundie-lite, just like all atheists aren't the terrible, evil people like fundies say.

[Kelya]

First, that wasn't the question I was answering. Second, if I had a good answer for that I would have given one. I do agree there should be female leadership in the church. All I can say is that this is where I'm comfortable worshiping, and if it's considered patriarchal or fundie by FJ then so be it. Not all people who attend the type of church I do are fundie or fundie-lite, just like all atheists aren't the terrible, evil people like fundies say.

Its like you don't even realize how hilarious you are.

[Buzzard]

First, that wasn't the question I was answering. Second, if I had a good answer for that I would have given one. I do agree there should be female leadership in the church. All I can say is that this is where I'm comfortable worshiping, and if it's considered patriarchal or fundie by FJ then so be it. Not all people who attend the type of church I do are fundie or fundie-lite, just like all atheists aren't the terrible, evil people like fundies say.

How are you comfortable in a place that sees you as "lesser" simply because you dont have a dick? Isnt the value of a human being the most important thing?