Razing Ruth's Sister Pregnant out of Wedlock

[QAF_Rocks]

Absolutely. But there are still, today, women who feel forced to give up their children because they are poor. Or young. Or have no education.

There are also women who feel pressured to keep their babies. Reading this thread, it sounds like a lot of people think that keeping the baby should be the natural, first, and best choice. If anything, it seems like the stigma is against adoption.

And just from reading this thread, a lot of people seem to think that it is "better" to give the baby up for adoption if the mother is poor, young or undeducated.

I'm not saying it's better, but it's certainly not worse. It's a different option. There are three options. All of the options have benefits and all of them have challenges. Only the pregnant woman can decide what is the best option for her.

When Sweden started to support single mothers instead of shaming them, the adoption rate dropped to 0%. I have never ever heard of a mother who has considered giving up their babies to adoption because they are too "emotionally unprepared".

I don't understand how that's possible. How does an adoption rate drop to zero percent? Every single pregnant woman and girl wants to raise the child? What if she doesn't want an abortion, or it's too late for an abortion? It sounds like Sweden pressures girls into keeping children whether they want to or not.

All I can say is that if it had been me in Rachel's situation, pregnant at 19, I would have absolutely made an adoption plan. I thought about it many times during college. There is no way on earth that I wanted to raise a baby at that age, even if I had had a supportive partner. Luckily, I never got pregnant, but I cannot imagine myself raising a child in those circumstances.

[Clementine]

I don't understand how that's possible. How does an adoption rate drop to zero percent? Every single pregnant woman and girl wants to raise the child? What if she doesn't want an abortion, or it's too late for an abortion? It sounds like Sweden pressures girls into keeping children whether they want to or not.

We have mandatory sex education, free birth control pills for teenage girls, youth centres that hand out condoms for free, the day after pill is sold over the counter or you can get them from your health central or school nurse where you also can take pregnancy tests, abortion is free (and free of charge) and the parents don't have to be informed. We haven't been told that it is a sin to use contraception or have abortions.

If women wants to keep their babies, they are offered help. They still can choose to place the children in foster care if they want to for later adoption.

But still, the adoption rate is 0%. That was the consequence when Swedish women were given all kinds of options to choose.

[Cran]

Could you provide any source for those "0% of Swedish women give up their child for adoption"?

[sippin0nsunshine]

But still, the adoption rate is 0%. That was the consequence when Swedish women were given all kinds of options to choose.

What about couples wishing to adopt? Is there much of that considering the adoption rate? Just curious because I don't know much about Sweden other than you guys have great music.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

We have mandatory sex education, free birth control pills for teenage girls, youth centres that hand out condoms for free, the day after pill is sold over the counter or you can get them from your health central or school nurse where you also can take pregnancy tests, abortion is free (and free of charge) and the parents don't have to be informed. We haven't been told that it is a sin to use contraception or have abortions.

If women wants to keep their babies, they are offered help. They still can choose to place the children in foster care if they want to for later adoption.

But still, the adoption rate is 0%. That was the consequence when Swedish women were given all kinds of options to choose.

We have all that in Germany except for the morning after pill over the counter, but I doubt that 0% of German women give up their babies for adoption. And what about couples who want to adopt? Do they all have to do foreign adoptions?

[QAF_Rocks]

We have mandatory sex education, free birth control pills for teenage girls, youth centres that hand out condoms for free, the day after pill is sold over the counter or you can get them from your health central or school nurse where you also can take pregnancy tests, abortion is free (and free of charge) and the parents don't have to be informed. We haven't been told that it is a sin to use contraception or have abortions.

I know Sweden has wonderful comprehensive sex education, but sometimes birth control fails. Even if there is absolutely no stigma attached to abortion, I have a hard time imagining that every woman and girl is comfortable choosing to terminate her pregnancy.

But still, the adoption rate is 0%. That was the consequence when Swedish women were given all kinds of options to choose.

We have all those options here, too (at least in liberal cities like mine) and the adoption rate is not zero percent. I guess I just have a hard time imagining it. If there's no adoption, then how does the average Swedish girl feel about adoption? Is there stigma surrounding it? If there is, doesn't that amount to cultural pressure to terminate the pregnancy or keep the baby? Otherwise, you would expect at least some girls and women to choose it, not because of poverty, but because they're not ready to parent.

[Clementine]

Could you provide any source for those "0% of Swedish women give up their child for adoption"?

I can't find any sources in English from googling.

In 2007, 15 babies were given up for adoption, always through social service and in most cases because the ss thinks the parents will not be able to care for the children, even with help and support.

The same year, 13 older children were given up for adoption after being placed in foster homes for a longer period of time (several years).

16 000 children under 18 were living in foster homes.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/lattar ... fosterbarn

For reference, there are 9M people in Sweden, about 110 000 babies are born every year and about 35 000 abortions are performed. (Numbers from the top of my head from the statistics in the late 2000's).

So the right number is not 0%, but in 2007 0,000136% of the parents gave their babies up for adoption.

[Clementine]

We have all that in Germany except for the morning after pill over the counter, but I doubt that 0% of German women give up their babies for adoption. And what about couples who want to adopt? Do they all have to do foreign adoptions?

Since there are so few Swedish babies to adopt... yes. Around 1000 international adoptions per year.

[Clementine]

What about couples wishing to adopt? Is there much of that considering the adoption rate? Just curious because I don't know much about Sweden other than you guys have great music.

About 1000 children from abroad are adopted every year.

[Clementine]

I know Sweden has wonderful comprehensive sex education, but sometimes birth control fails. Even if there is absolutely no stigma attached to abortion, I have a hard time imagining that every woman and girl is comfortable choosing to terminate her pregnancy.

We have all those options here, too (at least in liberal cities like mine) and the adoption rate is not zero percent. I guess I just have a hard time imagining it. If there's no adoption, then how does the average Swedish girl feel about adoption? Is there stigma surrounding it? If there is, doesn't that amount to cultural pressure to terminate the pregnancy or keep the baby? Otherwise, you would expect at least some girls and women to choose it, not because of poverty, but because they're not ready to parent.

In general, adoption is just... something that we don't do. It's considered as something from the old ages and I really think that it's unimaginable for most women in my generation.

If women decide to keep the babies, there are a lot of support if we need it. Using a foster family is one of them.

There was one girl in my high school (early 90's) that got pregnant and decided to have the baby. She had her own contact person from the SS, got a lot of support from the maternity centre (nurses, midwifes, ob gyns and psychologists work there) and she could have had a "support family" if she had wanted to - a family that takes care of the child two weekends per month.

She got a year off from hs and got the maternity support from the government for a year. After that she used the cheap childcare we have here and continued with her high school studies, got her diploma and continued to university where she got a degree in economics. Having a baby when she was so young was a bump in the road from her and I guess that she had a few rough years, both emotionally and financially (but most students have...).

She got the help she needed and when she was 23, she got a good job and has been working and supporting herself ever since. That's how most young women that have babies do it.

[Peas n carrots]

I'm not sure why so much hands lapping if someone expresses even some reservations with adoption. Someone above mentioned people should feel it doesn't have to be a natural, first choice to keep thr baby...yikes! If you choose to carry a pregnancy to term, you are choosing to put another human being on this earth that is a part of you. Unless you have some very good reasons like Rachel to go for adoption, why wouldn't you want to care for your own baby?

Some people think there is NOTHING wrong with the adoption industry and it is all unicorns who fart rainbows. I really recommend checking out www.adultadoptees.org. Be warned...it's like the FJ of adoption, and you will find some pretty strong negative opinions on adoption from adoptees but also birth parents and adoptive parents.

[Deleted03]

I'm not sure why so much hands lapping if someone expresses even some reservations with adoption. Someone above mentioned people should feel it doesn't have to be a natural, first choice to keep thr baby...yikes! If you choose to carry a pregnancy to term, you are choosing to put another human being on this earth that is a part of you. Unless you have some very good reasons like Rachel to go for adoption, why wouldn't you want to care for your own baby?

Some people think there is NOTHING wrong with the adoption industry and it is all unicorns who fart rainbows. I really recommend checking out http://www.adultadoptees.org. Be warned...it's like the FJ of adoption, and you will find some pretty strong negative opinions on adoption from adoptees but also birth parents and adoptive parents.

I think it's indeed very hard, but there's a point where all our doubts about adoption might make it harder on the person who decides to put for adoption.

I think there are many bad stories about adoption but so are there with abortion and keeping the baby. Even if adoption would not be an option for you (or for me) well you're not in her shoes, and she'll do what she can to find good options for her baby.

[valsa]

Someone above mentioned people should feel it doesn't have to be a natural, first choice to keep thr baby...yikes! If you choose to carry a pregnancy to term, you are choosing to put another human being on this earth that is a part of you. Unless you have some very good reasons like Rachel to go for adoption, why wouldn't you want to care for your own baby?

As someone brilliantly said upthread- consent to being pregnant is not automatically consent to motherhood. If I got pregnant and carried to term due to abortion not being available or moral or personal objections to having one myself, I would not parent the baby. Not in a million years. I like my sleep too much (and yes, that's a serious consideration for me) That it's a part of me has no bearing on that decision.

Also, I think it's pretty naive and judgmental to assume that something is wrong with a woman who doesn't want to parent something just because it came out of her (how do you feel about surrogacy, btw?) Many women do not bond with their children until long after they're born and that's completely natural. Some never bond to their children for whatever reason.

As others have said, it seems like the very posters here who are accusing others of pressuring women to adopt out are, themselves, pressuring women to keep the child or risk the reputation of something being "wrong" with them.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am reading parts of this thread and it is very interesting to see how many "fleas" many of us have from irrational moral codes that we have been taught. What I mean by "fleas" is that there are irritating left over emotional pieces of baggage that we unwittingly carry around. All people have them. Situations that are outside the norm often trigger these fleas to irritate us (and often the people around us).).

A young woman is pregnant, unplanned and inopportune. Here at FJ, we spend all day talking about how these fundamentalist religious movements are harmful to the children who are raised within them. ATI has been singled out as particularly damaging. We point out how unprepared these young people are to face adult life, They are poorly educated at the SOTDRT. They are kept ignorant of the world around them. They are unemployed and unemployable. They are trained to fear everything in the world except their very small circle. They are prohibited from even spending a moment in solitude to contemplate their very own thoughts. The females are never expected to ever interact with the greater world because they are going to go from their father's umbrella of protection to that of the spouse he chooses for her. Her entire worldview is confined to pleasing the lord of her home. She is not just told what to think, she is expressly told NOT to think.

A young woman is pregnant. She is thrust into a world that she has taught to shun and to fear. She is alone for the very first time. She is forced to rely on the very worldly people she has been taught are going to hell. The very same people who she was told were not good, not worthy of god's love, full of satanic influence, evil are those upon whom she must now rely. She needs lawyers, social workers, clinics, nurses and doctors. She must trust the people who she has been taught to mistrust up until the last seeveral weeks.

And now we can't imagine why she feels unprepared to raise a child??? Rachel is unprepared to go to a drive through by herself and order her own breakfast. She has a brother and a sister to help and that is truly a blessing. She needs them.

If you cannot understand why Rachel's choices are unique to her circumstance, then you are not paying attention.

Rachel, if you are redsing this, I want to tell you that I care about you. This is your situation and you have my complete respect for any choices you make in the coming months. Your life is evolving very quickly right now and so are you. I consider you a very brave and worthy human being. I would personally take you in myself, if you would need it. In the meanwhile, you have my thoughts, my prayers (such that they are), my respect and my support. You decisions are valid. Everyone has an opinion. This is yor life. Take one step at a time, just like we all do. There are times that will be sunny and other times will be stormy. In the situation of pregnancy, you already know that it is one of the most singularly life altering conditions to exist in the human experience. Everybody has an opinion. It is your body. Your choice. And I respect you completely for this.

[eohiken]

The Swedish example shows that women, given the choice, do not choose to continue unwanted pregnancies to give up babies for adoption. It's not a matter of consenting to pregnancy, but not motherhood. Accidental pregnancies, of which there are few because of adequate education and bc, are either ended or the resulting babies are kept - that's not a judgemental statement, that's what is happening.

Sweden has got it going on, I must say.

I've been following Ruth for a couple of years at least, I'm a big fan. I'm so sorry Rachel is in this position.

[valsa]

The Swedish example shows that women, given the choice, do not choose to continue unwanted pregnancies to give up babies for adoption. It's not a matter of consenting to pregnancy, but not motherhood. Accidental pregnancies, of which there are few because of adequate education and bc, are either ended or the resulting babies are kept - that's not a judgemental statement, that's what is happening.

What is happening in Sweden is that if you don't want to be a mother, you get an abortion. For various cultural reasons, that's not considered acceptable to many pregnant girls and women in America.

[eohiken]

because MURRRDERRR

I know.

[BlueChair]

A few years of lurking, and this is the thread that brings me out of the woodwork :)

I am a social worker (well, I guess former social worker since I've gone back to school and am not currently working in the field). I started out working for an agency that did international and domestic adoptions as well as foster care licensing and then moved on to work with county foster care and adoptions.

Adoption is tricky. Adoption is messy. Adoption is loss.

Any preadoptive counseling (for birth or adoptive parents) that tells you anything less than that is selling you something. If people are well educated about the emotional complexities of adoption and then decide to continue on with making an adoption plan for their child or to adopt a child, then good for them. That is the case for many.

Unfortunately, there are also many birth parents who make adoption plans for their child due to a sense of shame or solely based on finances or because they think that it's the "right" thing to do. It's these folks who face a much higher likelihood of regrets and struggle with their decision after it's too late. For them, it truly may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It sounds like Ruth's sister has made a decision that is based on what she know she needs and wants for herself and not out of shame or a feeling that this is what she should do. Then more power to her! Any agency worth their weight will counsel her well and reassure her that she has the right to change her mind until her parental rights are legally terminated. They should also be offering her post-adoption counseling for as long as she needs.

[BlueChair]

One more thing...

I used to live and work in the U.S. but now have moved to a Scandinavian country (not Sweden) to do my master's. What Clementine is saying about Swedes and other Europeans finding our American adoption practices as strange is entirely true. The philosophy here is to support people through all stages of life to enable them to be contributing members of society, not to tell them "Well, you made your bed, now lie in it" as seems to have become the American way. I'm always joking that I have reached nirvana!

International adoption and surrogacy are the main options for childless couples here, and mainly surrogacy for gay couples since most sending countries for international adoption will not accept gay families.

[Eoywin]

If I were in Rachel's situation, I would be thinking about adoption, especially if abortion isn't on the table of options for whatever reason.

Caring for a baby is hard - it's the hardest thing I have ever done. And I was in my 30's with a wonderful husband to help me out when my daughter was born. I couldn't even imagine being in Rachel's situation, especially just coming out of the brainwashing lifestyle of ATI / Darth Daddy.

I hope that she can decide with a course of action that she can live with, because at this point that's the most important thing.

[bbfreethinker]

I am reading parts of this thread and it is very interesting to see how many "fleas" many of us have from irrational moral codes that we have been taught. What I mean by "fleas" is that there are irritating left over emotional pieces of baggage that we unwittingly carry around. All people have them. Situations that are outside the norm often trigger these fleas to irritate us (and often the people around us).).

A young woman is pregnant, unplanned and inopportune. Here at FJ, we spend all day talking about how these fundamentalist religious movements are harmful to the children who are raised within them. ATI has been singled out as particularly damaging. We point out how unprepared these young people are to face adult life, They are poorly educated at the SOTDRT. They are kept ignorant of the world around them. They are unemployed and unemployable. They are trained to fear everything in the world except their very small circle. They are prohibited from even spending a moment in solitude to contemplate their very own thoughts. The females are never expected to ever interact with the greater world because they are going to go from their father's umbrella of protection to that of the spouse he chooses for her. Her entire worldview is confined to pleasing the lord of her home. She is not just told what to think, she is expressly told NOT to think.

A young woman is pregnant. She is thrust into a world that she has taught to shun and to fear. She is alone for the very first time. She is forced to rely on the very worldly people she has been taught are going to hell. The very same people who she was told were not good, not worthy of god's love, full of satanic influence, evil are those upon whom she must now rely. She needs lawyers, social workers, clinics, nurses and doctors. She must trust the people who she has been taught to mistrust up until the last seeveral weeks.

And now we can't imagine why she feels unprepared to raise a child??? Rachel is unprepared to go to a drive through by herself and order her own breakfast. She has a brother and a sister to help and that is truly a blessing. She needs them.

If you cannot understand why Rachel's choices are unique to her circumstance, then you are not paying attention.

Rachel, if you are redsing this, I want to tell you that I care about you. This is your situation and you have my complete respect for any choices you make in the coming months. Your life is evolving very quickly right now and so are you. I consider you a very brave and worthy human being. I would personally take you in myself, if you would need it. In the meanwhile, you have my thoughts, my prayers (such that they are), my respect and my support. You decisions are valid. Everyone has an opinion. This is yor life. Take one step at a time, just like we all do. There are times that will be sunny and other times will be stormy. In the situation of pregnancy, you already know that it is one of the most singularly life altering conditions to exist in the human experience. Everybody has an opinion. It is your body. Your choice. And I respect you completely for this.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[MadameX]

A few years of lurking, and this is the thread that brings me out of the woodwork :)

I am a social worker (well, I guess former social worker since I've gone back to school and am not currently working in the field). I started out working for an agency that did international and domestic adoptions as well as foster care licensing and then moved on to work with county foster care and adoptions.

Adoption is tricky. Adoption is messy. Adoption is loss.

Any preadoptive counseling (for birth or adoptive parents) that tells you anything less than that is selling you something. If people are well educated about the emotional complexities of adoption and then decide to continue on with making an adoption plan for their child or to adopt a child, then good for them. That is the case for many.

Unfortunately, there are also many birth parents who make adoption plans for their child due to a sense of shame or solely based on finances or because they think that it's the "right" thing to do. It's these folks who face a much higher likelihood of regrets and struggle with their decision after it's too late. For them, it truly may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It sounds like Ruth's sister has made a decision that is based on what she know she needs and wants for herself and not out of shame or a feeling that this is what she should do. Then more power to her! Any agency worth their weight will counsel her well and reassure her that she has the right to change her mind until her parental rights are legally terminated. They should also be offering her post-adoption counseling for as long as she needs.

I'm sorry, what?

Motherhood is a temporary problem? Considering the fact that most people deemed socially "unfit" to mother and who are doing the "right" thing by choosing adoption are generally young, uneducated/unskilled, financially unstable, and without a partner or family support, and considering the fact that few of those conditions are likely to change for the better very much once the responsibility of motherhood is introduced into the mix, I am not sure how it constitutes a "temporary" problem.

Look, I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, and I'm sure you are far more familiar with this than I considering your background and training, but I find it so dangerous and unrealistic to call it a temporary problem. It might seem that way because, once the mother is no longer tasked with raising her baby, she is more able to move herself out of the "unfit" situation she was in at the time of birth, so it appears to have been a temporary situation. But it's likely that she was only able to change things because she had given the baby up rather than parent.

[Peas n carrots]

Ok no one is saying they don't support the choice Rachel is looking to make, no one is saying that all adoptions are TEH BAD. But what I get tired of is the all happy rainbows everything is perfect and will be happily ever after. I just want a realistic view of adoption to be represented, because often all we ever see is the adoptive parent "we're so lucky and speshul we got a BAYBEE" point of view. We don't see sad birthparents, kids who feel confused and the sense of loss that can happen. Not every adoptive family is all wonderful either, as discussed on the fundie/international adoption forum. I just want a better representation of reality rather than the "it's wonderful" point of view that is so widely represented.

I feel for Rachel, because she is in a no win situation. She could either keep the baby, and try to rebuild her life with a baby as a single mom with little support...or give away her baby, rebuild her life and grieve for her child. That is a hard f'ing choice, and I respect and support the fact that she has put a lot of thought into this and is making what she feels best for herself.

Pregnancy is not a consent to motherhood is true, and not everyone is fit and should be a mother. If for whatever reason a woman chooses to continue a pregnancy, even if the woman feel nothing for the child...really, why go through with it?

[BlueChair]

Unfortunately, there are also many birth parents who make adoption plans for their child due to a sense of shame or solely based on finances or because they think that it's the "right" thing to do. It's these folks who face a much higher likelihood of regrets and struggle with their decision after it's too late. For them, it truly may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It sounds like Ruth's sister has made a decision that is based on what she know she needs and wants for herself and not out of shame or a feeling that this is what she should do. Then more power to her! Any agency worth their weight will counsel her well and reassure her that she has the right to change her mind until her parental rights are legally terminated. They should also be offering her post-adoption counseling for as long as she needs.

I'm sorry, what?

Motherhood is a temporary problem? Considering the fact that most people deemed socially "unfit" to mother and who are doing the "right" thing by choosing adoption are generally young, uneducated/unskilled, financially unstable, and without a partner or family support, and considering the fact that few of those conditions are likely to change for the better very much once the responsibility of motherhood is introduced into the mix, I am not sure how it constitutes a "temporary" problem.

Look, I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, and I'm sure you are far more familiar with this than I considering your background and training, but I find it so dangerous and unrealistic to call it a temporary problem. It might seem that way because, once the mother is no longer tasked with raising her baby, she is more able to move herself out of the "unfit" situation she was in at the time of birth, so it appears to have been a temporary situation. But it's likely that she was only able to change things because she had given the baby up rather than parent.

You're right, the analogy you quoted maybe isn't the best, but it does illustrate a point. Motherhood in and of itself is by no means temporary, and it is definitely easier to fight your way out of poverty or work toward an education without children, but the emotions surrounding the shock of an unplanned pregnancy may be very well be. And it is solely the emotional aspect I was speaking to. Sorry for my own lack of clarity.

For the teenage girls I saw dragged into the agency by their angry mothers who were crying so hard they wouldn't come out of the bathroom and we had to speak to through the stall door, girls who thought they could right their sin by "blessing" an infertile couple, or were encouraged by family members to give the baby to an aunt who had "so much more to offer them" ... it's these girls I worry are going to regret their decision down the road, because the reasons for agreeing to an adoption plan are external, rather than reaching a decision because "I can't do this/I don't want to do this/Parenting isn't right for me or my child"

[valsa]

But what I get tired of is the all happy rainbows everything is perfect and will be happily ever after.

And not a single person portrayed adoption that way here.

If for whatever reason a woman chooses to continue a pregnancy, even if the woman feel nothing for the child...really, why go through with it?

Really? You're so close minded you can't think of a single reason why a woman who doesn't want to be a mom would go through pregnancy?

1) Moral objection to abortion. I may not agree with someone who thinks abortion is murdering a baby but, as long as she isn't trying to prevent me from being able to have one, she's free to not get an abortion on moral grounds all she wants. Being pro-choice cuts both ways. They also might be pressured by their families into not getting an abortion.

2) Lack of accessibility. Many women and (especially) girls may not be able to get to an abortion clinic. They may not have a car to drive to another county or state, or be able to get off work, or they may be past the deadline for a legal abortion in their state.

3) Lack of money. The same reason a lot of women choose adoption might be the same reason they choose not to have an abortion. Abortions cost money, sometimes a lot. In most cases, expectant mothers can have adoptive parents pay their expenses (including the cost of the birth) so having the baby and giving it up for adoption might be the only option they can afford.