Razing Ruth's Sister Pregnant out of Wedlock

[jaelh]

I disagree. I don't give a damn about being a noble person and I'm barely on the "good" side of being a good or bad person (and my therapist might argue that point too) I also don't think what I did was all that unusual (I think most people, given the knowledge and opportunity I had, would have done it) The reason I did it was because I had the opportunity (no job, no kids (or anyone who relied on me if something should do wrong and I died), and I was on break from school over the summer) and the realization that, if it were me or someone I cared for who needed a kidney, I would hope that they could get one (so how could I not give myself?) In short, I did it because it was the right thing to do and I could.

Sometimes people do good things without getting anything out of it. Again, the fact you can't even wrap your head around that concept makes me very sad for you.

Valsa! Are you that lacking in self awareness?

You did it because it was the right thing to do. You're the kind of person that does the right thing if you can, whatever self-depreciation you perform for your therapist and yourself. You just told us that you are.

You're also the kind of person who lists themselves for organ donation (I'm making an assumption here, correct me if I'm wrong); so you must have imagined yourself as someone who would be willing to donate.

People do the right thing because they want to do the right thing - not consciously, but because most people do want to do what it right by to their own, internal code. Not doing so creates an awful dissonance in ourselves.

This is the thing - that doesn't somehow make organ donation or surrogacy or moving to a war zone to be a doctor or whatever a lesser thing. It's just as good a thing. Purity of motives don't elevate an act to some kind of higher plane. Obviously there are more or less altruistic acts, but nothing happens in isolation from anything else, ever. Even reflexive acts of heroism, triggered at the id level, are part of that organic, essential self. Our subconscious mind is as much part of who we are as our conscious mind.

you be sad for my valsa, if you wish. but i'd save my concern for someone who might benefit more. I'm very happy, and i see enormous good in the world.

actually, i find your pity... amusing - you have such visceral and often enough negative, agressive comments in threads on the board; you appear to find little good in people that don't think and act the way you deem appropriate. so you pitying me for not imagining pure goodness, with yourself as the personification, has given me a good laugh.

And good for you on the kidney donation.

again - can we split this thread, please?

[Guest Anonymous]

AFAIK, the only way to 'split' a thread on FJ is to start a new thread and stop posting 'off-topic' stuff on the one you don't want to go 'off-topic'.

[Sola]

Or because the $$$. Would they do it without being paid and how many rich women choose to surrogate to couples outside the family?

It's illegal to pay a surrogate here in the UK. The only thing that can be paid for is expenses such as loss of wages.

[Sola]

It's true that you don't get paid for surrogacy or egg donation in the UK, or for blood donation either. You can get reasonable expenses for the first two, I think, but nothing for blood (not that blood is comparable to the other two, of course).

Ex-blood donor here. I gave blood regularly until my health fucked up and meds meant I could no longer donate. Blood donors don't get paid, not even expenses. All you get is a cup of tea and biscuit :D

There are some private clinics which offer reduced cost IVF to women who donate eggs/embryos. But you cannot be paid for it, I don't think you can get expenses for it either, certainly not if you do it via the NHS. Private clinics might be different.

[pomology]

Ex-blood donor here. I gave blood regularly until my health fucked up and meds meant I could no longer donate. Blood donors don't get paid, not even expenses. All you get is a cup of tea and biscuit :D

There are some private clinics which offer reduced cost IVF to women who donate eggs/embryos. But you cannot be paid for it, I don't think you can get expenses for it either, certainly not if you do it via the NHS. Private clinics might be different.

You don't get paid to donate blood in the United States either. Even expenses. That's why it's called donation...

[apple1]

I'm sure you didn't do it for the recovery time.

Maybe you wanted to be able to tell others you donated a kidney.

I realize that FJ is - and should be - unmoderated. I realize that reading posts that are not my thing - or I disagree with is going to be the order of the day.

Actually, I realize that in life we can agree to disagree, and that is the grease that keeps the wheels of life turning.

But I do believe that your statement (bolded) takes the prize for hatefulness out of everything I have read on FJ. You had to throw out something to "win" your argument, at any cost, no matter how hateful and out of line.

I no longer will even bother to read anything you write.

BTW I wonder how old you are. That sounds like the way an 8 year old would try to win an argument.

[Alecto]

I do believe jaelh is making the very classical argument for egoism. Which, in theory, I agree with. I personally do not believe anyone does anything without getting something in it for them. What that person gets from an action can be complex and not easily boiled down to a few words, but we are selfish creatures by nature.

[fundifugee]

To Rachel:

If you happen to have time to read on the internet, I find this blog quite inspiring http://brokenflowerschm.blogspot.com/20 ... -back.html

Reading "Spend a Day in That Girl's Shoes" followed by "Looking Back", you will realize just how wonderfully wide open your future is.

[valsa]

Valsa! Are you that lacking in self awareness?

Not as much as you’re lacking in logic.

You did it because it was the right thing to do. You're the kind of person that does the right thing if you can, whatever self-depreciation you perform for your therapist and yourself. You just told us that you are.

You're also the kind of person who lists themselves for organ donation (I'm making an assumption here, correct me if I'm wrong); so you must have imagined yourself as someone who would be willing to donate.

People do the right thing because they want to do the right thing - not consciously, but because most people do want to do what it right by to their own, internal code. Not doing so creates an awful dissonance in ourselves.

I agree with this. However, what you are arguing is not that people do the right thing because they want to, but because they get something out of it. That’s what I disagree with.

Obviously there are more or less altruistic acts, but nothing happens in isolation from anything else, ever.

Never said they do. I just don’t agree that every action has some sort of self-interest, subconscious or not, at its root.

actually, i find your pity... amusing - you have such visceral and often enough negative, agressive comments in threads on the board; you appear to find little good in people that don't think and act the way you deem appropriate. so you pitying me for not imagining pure goodness, with yourself as the personification, has given me a good laugh.

I find it interesting that you’ve managed to assign me, in your head, the exact opposite line of reasoning that I actually have. I don’t think I’m pure goodness. Quite the opposite. However, I do think most people, even ones with serious flaws and who are not-that-good, will do good things for people without getting anything out of it.

You say you see enormous good in the world, but you also believe that good will only be done by people if they get something out of it. That’s why I pity you. You have a very cold and pessimistic view of people’s motivations for doing good things.

[valsa]

I do believe jaelh is making the very classical argument for egoism. Which, in theory, I agree with. I personally do not believe anyone does anything without getting something in it for them. What that person gets from an action can be complex and not easily boiled down to a few words, but we are selfish creatures by nature.

Yeah, still a very sad point of view. And one that, fortunately for the people who believe it, cannot be easily disproven (if at all)

[Deleted03]

I do believe jaelh is making the very classical argument for egoism. Which, in theory, I agree with. I personally do not believe anyone does anything without getting something in it for them. What that person gets from an action can be complex and not easily boiled down to a few words, but we are selfish creatures by nature.

+1

[Angri-la]

This thread was lacking cake.

[valsa]

This thread was lacking cake.

... what occasion is that cake for?

I can't think of when in life you would be "picked" except for, like, a sports team.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Not as much as you’re lacking in logic.

I agree with this. However, what you are arguing is not that people do the right thing because they want to, but because they get something out of it. That’s what I disagree with.

Never said they do. I just don’t agree that every action has some sort of self-interest, subconscious or not, at its root.

I find it interesting that you’ve managed to assign me, in your head, the exact opposite line of reasoning that I actually have. I don’t think I’m pure goodness. Quite the opposite. However, I do think most people, even ones with serious flaws and who are not-that-good, will do good things for people without getting anything out of it.

You say you see enormous good in the world, but you also believe that good will only be done by people if they get something out of it. That’s why I pity you. You have a very cold and pessimistic view of people’s motivations for doing good things.

Anyone see the episode of Friends where Joey and Phoebe are arguing about a defines a selfless act? At the end of the episode, Phoebe donates money to PBS, which she hates, and argues to Joey that it is a selfless act because she hates PBS and did not want to part with the money. Then Joey gets airtime for taking her call, which puts PBS over their fund raising goal, and then Phoebe feels good about herself :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzQSEoNdGvk

[SunnyAndrsn]

Back on topic, Ruth how are you doing?

Big hugs to you and your sister.

[stacyf]

... what occasion is that cake for?

I can't think of when in life you would be "picked" except for, like, a sports team.

or if you are adopted...

[Lainey]

Have I ever told you guys about my fondness for puffins?

[PokaDot]

I like pie. Apple....Cherry. Chocolate Chess.

My favorite is Pecan Pie. Especially when it's made without using corn syrup.

And some good homemade vanilla bean ice cream on the side.

[Angri-la]

or if you are adopted...

Thank you for your powerful skills to equate topic and cake.

Have I ever told you guys about my fondness for puffins?

I also enjoy puffins. They are adorable.

I like pie. Apple....Cherry. Chocolate Chess.

My favorite is Pecan Pie. Especially when it's made without using corn syrup.

And some good homemade vanilla bean ice cream on the side.

I will concentrate on some good pie porn. I am actually making one tonight, so I will post my charming creation just for you! Cherry!

[PokaDot]

Thank you for your powerful skills to equate topic and cake.

I also enjoy puffins. They are adorable.

I will concentrate on some good pie porn. I am actually making one tonight, so I will post my charming creation just for you! Cherry!

Exceeeeeeeeeeeellent! Be sure to post the recipe too! I'm always looking for an excuse to cheat on my diet.

[treemom]

I'm sure you didn't do it for the recovery time.

Maybe you wanted to be able to tell others you donated a kidney.

That's the thing about the good things we do. We *always, always* get something out of it. Even if it's simply the knowledge we're the kind of person that we'd like to think we are; the kind of person that donates kidneys, that bears other peoples children, that goes to live in a conflict zone etc... I AM the good guy, the self sacrificing, noble type.

What you did was magnificent. Bearing another persons child is a gift to another person no question.

None of that is diminished by saying the giver likely got something out of making their gift, and had to have personal motivations, even if subliminal. We don't have to be entirely altruistic to do good.

Mods - is there anyway we can split these very interesting discussions off from the posts about Rachel?

Egoism also allows for an indirect benefit. I was a potential organ donor for the husband of my son's second grade teacher. While I didn't have a problem telling people I was doing it, I also didn't need to be praised for it. Seriously, it was not something that showed some intrinsic value I worked at etc.

I cared deeply for this teacher and her husband getting an organ opened up choices and opportunities for her. Yes, I did it for a reason I felt benefited me, but one that did so directly. Egoism does have subtleties and part of that includes indirect benefits, it doesn't need to just be accolades.

[treemom]

I'm sure you didn't do it for the recovery time.

Maybe you wanted to be able to tell others you donated a kidney.

That's the thing about the good things we do. We *always, always* get something out of it. Even if it's simply the knowledge we're the kind of person that we'd like to think we are; the kind of person that donates kidneys, that bears other peoples children, that goes to live in a conflict zone etc... I AM the good guy, the self sacrificing, noble type.

What you did was magnificent. Bearing another persons child is a gift to another person no question.

None of that is diminished by saying the giver likely got something out of making their gift, and had to have personal motivations, even if subliminal. We don't have to be entirely altruistic to do good.

Mods - is there anyway we can split these very interesting discussions off from the posts about Rachel?

And no we aren't splitting the discussion.

[eohiken]

Hawaii* has a cultural tradition of surrogacy/adoption called hanai. Children were conceived for the purpose of giving them to (often childless) family members in an act of love. The birth parents continue to stay in their children's lives, while the adoptive parents raise them as their own. It connects and grows families instead of severing ties. It's a completely different spin on the typical western idea of adoption, where the young and/or poor are pressured (directly or indirectly) to relinquish their parental rights and are cut off from their children. Seems a helluva lot healthier to me, for all parties. I nearly offered to be a surrogate for my cousin with this in mind, but after several years of infertility, she ended up finally having a baby.

*I am about as far from being Hawaiian as a person can get, all I know about Hawaiian culture I've gotten from various documentaries. I am no expert, feel free to correct me.

[treemom]

Here we go, I can end the argument, adoption like many things in like is complicated by many factors. No everyone in a certain role will feel loss, and some people will feel the loss more acutely. Cultural and societal factors will play into that and legalities don't always keep up with our awareness of the difficulty. In other words, you can't judge one adoption but your andecdata about adoption or even about statistics.

Also, I believe all choices are valid. And none of them are my business. If I want to offer support for a choice I can....but unless it affects me or someone is being empirically hurt I won't judge any party.

[Austin]

Here we go, I can end the argument, adoption like many things in like is complicated by many factors. No everyone in a certain role will feel loss, and some people will feel the loss more acutely. Cultural and societal factors will play into that and legalities don't always keep up with our awareness of the difficulty. In other words, you can't judge one adoption but your andecdata about adoption or even about statistics.

Also, I believe all choices are valid. And none of them are my business. If I want to offer support for a choice I can....but unless it affects me or someone is being empirically hurt I won't judge any party.

QFT!

And one more thing:

anecdata /= evidence or fact