Where's the compassion? Abortion vs Fundie Lifestyle

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I'm mostly a quiet lurker, I don't post all that often (but I've been around since the days of the epic-length Duggar threads at TWOP, the ones that lead to the creation of FJ in the first place), but I have to say, emmiedahl, you are seriously one of my favorite people in all the internet. I agree with pretty much everything you say and I always enjoy reading your posts.

Back to my regular quiet reading. :)

Seconded! :)

[treemom]

Especially with the horrific murder of Dr. Tiller, it's frightening to think of how few providers there are in this country for the couples who find themselves in heartbreaking situations. Didn't you have to travel to another state?

To Kansas. Dr tiller was my dr.

[bionicmlle]

I really shouldn't click on a long, new thread at the end of the day so my only comment is as follows:

I you Free Jingers!

Are we going to do a year-end PP donation drive?? :)

[fundiefan]

I am not, by nature, a compassionate person. At all.

I bolded part of your quote there because you answered your own question. I don't consider it's my responsibility to be constantly aware of others' fragile emotional states. If someone saw me on the street and I didn't happen to smile and acknowledge her, and that caused her to go home and kill herself, how is that my fault? Should I not say anything critical to an acquaintance on the off chance that she might be emotionally fragile enough to jump off the next bridge she sees? Please.

Using DA's thought process here, how does any one of the fundie bloggers or, really, any of their groups or 'leaders' (ATI, VF, Gothard, whoever) know that their insistence - in writing, online - that god hates gays and gays are not valuable people and should be killed, or they're going to hell, isn't the last thing a fragile, young, scared gay teenager comes across before he or she decides it is better to die than be punished forever, in this life and the next life?

Words have power. They all have power. Not necessarily the power the one saying them intends or wants, but all words have the power to hurt someone. The thing is, if every person walked around saying nothing in order to make sure they don't say the one thing that will push one fragile person over the ledge they're on, no one would ever say anything!

We, none of us, are responsible for someone else's reactions to what we say or do.

And, when it comes to the fundie bloggers we discuss, if he or she cannot handle what is said about him/her, then they can end it easily by shutting the fuck up themselves.

[teddybear]

I am a gay man. Why should I feel compassion for someone that wants me dead? I do feel sorry for some of them though, mostly the weaker minded ones that have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the monsters who lead them.

[formergothardite]

What if DA's very own words about abortion really being killing a baby causes some emotionally fragile lurker who just had an abortion to commit suicide? What about that DA? Or do those people just deserve to die anyway?

[Nomorearrows]

emmiedahl, formergothardite, lilwinstar and lissar stand out as my favorites.

I agree!!!:)

[formergothardite]

Since DA brought up Miss Raquel and I do snark on her a great deal. One of the things is that she is actively trying to get as many people to follow her blog and read the things that she is presenting as the truth of God (she even says that her words are God's words) and she is putting some mighty dangerous stuff on that blog. She thinks guys who treat women as objects that belong in cages are wonderful! And also, since I'm rather bitchy sometimes (just like you DA) I find it highly amusing that she presents herself as a this modest maiden for God while she is really all about showing off. And even though she is 17 or 18 she has 12 year olds looking up to her, reading her blog, and treating her as a role model (and she encourages this) and she is far from being a good role model. Plus her fictional is crap.

[thoughtful]

Don't forget to add a scarlet A.

:lol:

I think we have a new alternative to the manicure maneuver -- the ordering smocked clothing maneuver!

My Mom dressed me in the cutest smocked cotton dresses when I was little -- lots of deep, saturated colors, including some plaids. Those dresses were so cute, and so comfy.

Oh, and while I avoid the snark on external appearance and the very young, I generally think that most of the fundies we discuss, who would destroy the freedoms I cherish if they had their way (and many of whom are trying to get that way), deserve what is said about their attitudes.

And anyone who is hurting their children, or restricting their lives to the point of severe detriment, also deserves censure.

[JesusFightClub]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the comments made about feeling compassion towards women who choose to have abortions. But I am wondering why this same compassion that many express here toward women who choose abortion isn't shown to the women who are living a fundie lifestyle? We don't know their true position in life or why they have chosen to live and believe as they do. We don't truly know what their circumstances are in their homes. Perhaps they are miserable and tired of wearing a mask to cover their true feelings. But it is also possible that they are happy and content and so are their children. Since it seems that women who choose abortion are seen as just making a choice that they feel is the right decision and are therefore accepted and applauded here, then why not accept and applaud the decisions of people who also believe they are doing what is best for their family and children?

I can understand the snarking against those that you see as creating the fundie lifestyle and the ones perpetuating it, but aren't these women deserving of the same compassion as the women who choose abortion? I am wondering how it would make you all feel if you found out one day when logging on that one of the women or girls you snark on has committed suicide because she just couldn't handle the things that were being said here about her and her family. Some of these women could be extremely emotionally fragile and who knows what could drive them over the edge. Would you feel all justified and be high-fiving each other for a job well done? Would there be any regret or change to the board? I see a lot of what is said on this board as being nothing more than cyber bullying - except that instead of it being done by kids it is being done by adults who should know a better way to handle things.

If these women are taught that what they believe is right and that the world will hate them because of their beliefs then your snarking on them is just further proof that what they are being taught is correct. Wouldn't you be more likely to help someone stuck in the fundie lifestyle by offering compassionate and helpful thoughts and comments? Perhaps some of these women are actually having second thoughts in their heads but they haven't verbalized them because of the thought of being seen as a sinner or as a bad wife or mother. Wouldn't kind and compassionate comments be more likely to help someone in this position rather than the harsh criticism they so often receive?

I guess I just don't totally understand the lack of compassion toward these women.

Boring troll is boring. But a couple of points.

Why do we have to be "compassionate"? What's the point in this? I would say "bourgeois sentimentality" ;) granted others wouldn't put it that way, but what it comes down to is these people don't give a shit about you so caring about them is pathetic.

Fundybloggers don't like women who make their own choices. What kind of "compassionate comments" do you think they would listen to from someone like me who is everything they very vocally despise?

Also, if someone's an emotionally fragile little totsy flower, they should probably avoid writing insulting blogs. Because the people you insult have one of two reactions. They get upset and angry or they mock you.Don't like them apples? Stop writing inane shit on the Internet and go and can some fruit or submit to your headship's manly desires or something. Nothing about this is difficult to understand.

[Guest Anonymous]

Don't like them apples? Stop writing inane shit on the Internet and go and can some fruit or submit to your headship's manly desires or something. Nothing about this is difficult to understand.

Unfortunately devilsadvocate6 is most likely now on her way to chuck tins of peas at people that don't look straight enough for her. I think I'll stay indoors.

[JesusFightClub]

Unfortunately devilsadvocate6 is most likely now on her way to chuck tins of peas at people that don't look straight enough for her. I think I'll stay indoors.

Hahahaha OMG what hath I wrought?

My housemates are going to think I am even more mental than they already knew, because FJ comments make me burst out laughing so often...

[theologygeek]

Wouldn't kind and compassionate comments be more likely to help someone in this position rather than the harsh criticism they so often receive?

I guess I just don't totally understand the lack of compassion toward these women.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I snark because they are using my God's name to spread hatred or other dangerous things. They're extremists, and extremists influence then recruit lost souls. If you look deep enough and read between the lines, a lot of these so called fundies are more evil than godly.

[theologygeek]

But I can tell by the answers that the fundies women aren't shown compassion because their beliefs are different than those here and therefore they are somehow wrong while everyone here is right.

That's because they ARE wrong. Their views are the opposite of what Jesus preached. It's late and I'm falling asleep at the computer or I would give examples. But no one with a brain needs examples anyway. Listen to what fundies say. It's almost always the opposite of what Jesus preached.

[zoestercoaster]

Damn! I missed it! The fetus smocks sound ammmmaaaaazzzzinnnggg

ANYWAY if DA is still reading this:

Access to contraceptives and abortion is DIRECTLY tied to women being able to rise out of poverty. You know what that means? More productive work force. Longer lives. Less disease. Education for kids! WHACKY, I KNOW.

[latraviata]

I am wondering how it would make you all feel if you found out one day when logging on that one of the women or girls you snark on has committed suicide because she just couldn't handle the things that were being said here about her and her family. Some of these women could be extremely emotionally fragile and who knows what could drive them over the edge.

Which is also one of the propaganda arguments of the pro life movement.

For me personally, it was not my finest hour, I could think of a more pleasant way to spend my time, but I am most certainly not traumatised or feeling quilty about the abortion. They just try to foist quilt upon people.

[muffynbear]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the comments made about feeling compassion towards women who choose to have abortions. But I am wondering why this same compassion that many express here toward women who choose abortion isn't shown to the women who are living a fundie lifestyle? We don't know their true position in life or why they have chosen to live and believe as they do. We don't truly know what their circumstances are in their homes. Perhaps they are miserable and tired of wearing a mask to cover their true feelings. But it is also possible that they are happy and content and so are their children. Since it seems that women who choose abortion are seen as just making a choice that they feel is the right decision and are therefore accepted and applauded here, then why not accept and applaud the decisions of people who also believe they are doing what is best for their family and children?

I can understand the snarking against those that you see as creating the fundie lifestyle and the ones perpetuating it, but aren't these women deserving of the same compassion as the women who choose abortion? I am wondering how it would make you all feel if you found out one day when logging on that one of the women or girls you snark on has committed suicide because she just couldn't handle the things that were being said here about her and her family. Some of these women could be extremely emotionally fragile and who knows what could drive them over the edge. Would you feel all justified and be high-fiving each other for a job well done? Would there be any regret or change to the board? I see a lot of what is said on this board as being nothing more than cyber bullying - except that instead of it being done by kids it is being done by adults who should know a better way to handle things.

If these women are taught that what they believe is right and that the world will hate them because of their beliefs then your snarking on them is just further proof that what they are being taught is correct. Wouldn't you be more likely to help someone stuck in the fundie lifestyle by offering compassionate and helpful thoughts and comments? Perhaps some of these women are actually having second thoughts in their heads but they haven't verbalized them because of the thought of being seen as a sinner or as a bad wife or mother. Wouldn't kind and compassionate comments be more likely to help someone in this position rather than the harsh criticism they so often receive?

I guess I just don't totally understand the lack of compassion toward these women.

Wow, someone's getting a bit hand slappy. I snark for several reasons. 1) They (fundies) take their religious and moral beliefs to the extreme. 2) Why submit oneself to a man's authority? 3) Those horrible frumpers! 4) The hypocrisy of it all. They may claim to be Christians, but they are in no way "Christ like". At. All. I could go on and on about why I snark, but I'm getting sleepy. If all the snarking really bothers you, why read here?

Also since you mention abortion I found this tidbit online:

Who's having abortions (religion)?

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

[Mama Mia]

Devil's Advocate...

I think I'm somewhere in the middle regarding abortion ... I am not by any stretch of the imagination hard care " pro-choice" for a number of reasons.

I would generally, consider myself maybe 1 step to the "more restrictive" vs " less restrictive" on the abortion spectrum.

BUT you totally and completely lose any and all credibility as a human being when you are so phenomenally awful as to suggest a "lighter penalty" for women who have had an abortion with a child who would have lived in pain and died shortly after birth. Seriously what on earth is the matter with you that that thought could even cross your head that a woman in that heartbreaking situation should face some 'punishment' ??? This is exactly the kind of thought process that turns people off any reasonable ideas the "pro-life" types would have. Too crazy, too extreme, too mean and with 0 concern for the woman or the family involved .. and with no regard for helping out the child after it's born.

Also, the "bullying" issue is silly. Bullying would involved going to these people and harassing them. This is a blog, that no one needs to read if they don't want to. It isn't a jr. high where you are surrounded by people you can't get a way from and are subjected to their abuse. Big difference.

[Sola]

I really shouldn't click on a long, new thread at the end of the day so my only comment is as follows:

I you Free Jingers!

Are we going to do a year-end PP donation drive?? :)

On another forum I am on, they are encouraging people to make donations to PP and to send them in honour of Ray Comfort! Apparently then the person you sent it in honour of, gets a thank you card!

[kthomp38+]

"I avoid this particular political discussion with friends and family, so it is only at FreeJinger that I began to realize that pro-choice people care deeply about creating liveable habitats for children, while pro-lifers only care about the habitat leading up to birth. It's kind of sad. I am still waiting for someone to tell me that they are pro-life AND support socialist programs that give poor children a decent life AND support massive birth control education for teens."-emmi dahl

I am a pro-life person that supports "socialist" programs to help children and I want all teenagers to have a comprehensive sex education. If teenagers use birth control then their will be less need for abortion. I also want to clarify that I don't believe that abortion is right but now that it is legal I would never campaign or protest for it to be illegal. I have heard to much about the terrible ways that people tried to give themselves abortions before it was legal. God gave all humans free will it is not up to me or any other person what someone does with their body. I think that birth control being available to more people is a way to lower the number of abortions.

[godlytomatosoup]

The troll's probably gone away by now, but just in case:

Suppose that I have an urgent medical need - say I need a bone marrow transplant, or a new kidney. Something that only another human being can provide, at the risk of their life, and with considerable and prolonged suffering. Suppose that you are the only human being who was matched with me. Only you can give me that kidney, that bone marrow, or whatever. It might kill you, it might permanently disable you, whether severely or mildly. Or you might be completely fine in less than a year.

1. Will you help me?

2. Should I be able to legally require you to help me?

2a. How much does it matter whether my medical need is the result of something you may or may not have done?

For reference, the law in most parts of the world (except for abortion law) is that you can't force someone to donate their body like that, even for something really mild like a blood or plasma donation, or something they can't possibly miss, like organs after death. Partly because it's not practical, but mostly because it is generally recognised that your own body is too personal a thing to force you to share against your will, even under life or death circumstances.

For me, this trumps the issue of whether or not a foetus is a person. I don't think a foetus is a person, but even if it were, I should still not be forced to provide 24/7 life support for one within my uterus against my will. And no, I don't hate children, and yes, I have donated blood in the past, and will do so again.

[theologygeek]

Devil's Advocate...

I think I'm somewhere in the middle regarding abortion ... I am not by any stretch of the imagination hard care " pro-choice" for a number of reasons.

I think that many people are in the middle because the middle is the only rational place to be when it comes to the two labels. Pro-choice and pro-life have got to be two of the stupidest labels that ever existed. There are too many variables involved regarding abortions in order for there to be a label or to make them all black and white. My pro-choice sister refused to have an abortion when the majority of the baby's brain was missing. My mother and I, both supposedly pro-life, gave my sister our opinions when she asked, and we both told her that we thought she should have an abortion. There was a woman on Zsuzsu's blog list who had an ectopic pregnancy. The fundie had an abortion even though there have been cases where both the baby and mother lived. Both she and her husband went into a panic when faced with the possibility of her dying. There are so many pros and cons to weigh where abortion is concerned, and to say all are wrong is, well, wrong.

[treemom]

I think that many people are in the middle because the middle is the only rational place to be when it comes to the two labels. Pro-choice and pro-life have got to be two of the stupidest labels that ever existed. There are too many variables involved regarding abortions in order for there to be a label or to make them all black and white. My pro-choice sister refused to have an abortion when the majority of the baby's brain was missing. My mother and I, both supposedly pro-life, gave my sister our opinions when she asked, and we both told her that we thought she should have an abortion. There was a woman on Zsuzsu's blog list who had an ectopic pregnancy. The fundie had an abortion even though there have been cases where both the baby and mother lived. Both she and her husband went into a panic when faced with the possibility of her dying. There are so many pros and cons to weigh where abortion is concerned, and to say all are wrong is, well, wrong.

Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. It means keeping it legal and safe and allowing a woman and her doctor to decide.

Your sister is still pro-choice.

[godlytomatosoup]

My pro-choice sister refused to have an abortion when the majority of the baby's brain was missing.

I'm very hard-line pro-choice, and if I were in that situation, I still don't know what I would decide. I might decide I wanted the chance to hold the baby in my arms and say goodbye. Or I might decide that I wanted to carry the pregnancy to term so that some other newborn could have its organs. Or both. Or I might want to terminate the pregnancy as soon as I found out.

What I do know, with 100% certainty, is that I want my options open. Both options: the option to continue the pregnancy and the option to abort. And that, to me, is what pro-choice means.

Your sister has my sympathy for facing that situation.

[Angri-la]

Really, darling, we've seen flounces here, and, that, my dear? One of the worst. Denim frumpers do not give a dramatic enough sound, as you let FJ's tastefully stained glass doors hit you in your bottom on your way out.

On a scale of 1-10? 1. You didn't even call me a hell bound heathen, and now my feelings are hurt. No style!