Where's the compassion? Abortion vs Fundie Lifestyle

[Guest Anonymous]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the comments made about feeling compassion towards women who choose to have abortions. But I am wondering why this same compassion that many express here toward women who choose abortion isn't shown to the women who are living a fundie lifestyle? We don't know their true position in life or why they have chosen to live and believe as they do. We don't truly know what their circumstances are in their homes. Perhaps they are miserable and tired of wearing a mask to cover their true feelings. But it is also possible that they are happy and content and so are their children. Since it seems that women who choose abortion are seen as just making a choice that they feel is the right decision and are therefore accepted and applauded here, then why not accept and applaud the decisions of people who also believe they are doing what is best for their family and children?

I can understand the snarking against those that you see as creating the fundie lifestyle and the ones perpetuating it, but aren't these women deserving of the same compassion as the women who choose abortion? I am wondering how it would make you all feel if you found out one day when logging on that one of the women or girls you snark on has committed suicide because she just couldn't handle the things that were being said here about her and her family. Some of these women could be extremely emotionally fragile and who knows what could drive them over the edge. Would you feel all justified and be high-fiving each other for a job well done? Would there be any regret or change to the board? I see a lot of what is said on this board as being nothing more than cyber bullying - except that instead of it being done by kids it is being done by adults who should know a better way to handle things.

If these women are taught that what they believe is right and that the world will hate them because of their beliefs then your snarking on them is just further proof that what they are being taught is correct. Wouldn't you be more likely to help someone stuck in the fundie lifestyle by offering compassionate and helpful thoughts and comments? Perhaps some of these women are actually having second thoughts in their heads but they haven't verbalized them because of the thought of being seen as a sinner or as a bad wife or mother. Wouldn't kind and compassionate comments be more likely to help someone in this position rather than the harsh criticism they so often receive?

I guess I just don't totally understand the lack of compassion toward these women.

[Mommy22alyns]

Just off the top of my head, women who have had abortions generally wouldn't insist on everyone having one and their way being the only right way and everyone else can go to hell.

[Guest Anonymous]

Just off the top of my head, women who have had abortions generally wouldn't insist on everyone having one and their way being the only right way and everyone else can go to hell.

While they may not insist on everyone having one, they often expect everyone to be okay and accepting with their decision to have one.

[emmiedahl]

I think I show as much compassion toward fundamentalists. They criticize me, I criticize them. They want to force me into their lifestyle, but I don't want to force them to do anything (except, perhaps, in cases where they are actively hurting other people, like the rampant child abuse).

Does compassion mean that I have to agree with everything they do? Not even. I dislike using abortion as birth control even while supporting a universal right to choose. I dislike patriarchal culture even while supporting their right to live that way.

I know that black-and-white thinkers believe that you must personally approve of other people's choices. Step beyond that, devilsadvocate. You can dislike someone's choices, but feel compassion for them and support their right to make those choices, can't you? Isn't that what Jesus would do? He obviously did not like prostitution, but he acted compassionately toward prostitutes.

[Witsec7]

I had an abortion as an adult woman. I did not expect, or request compassion from anyone due to my choice to have a private legal medical procedure.

As to compassion for fundies, they want to bury me, the patriarchy that forms their life thinks I'm less than. As a mother who worked outside the home I'm demonized by their culture. As a woman who thinks teens have the right to express their own sexuality, I'm damned by these people.As a feminist, they blame me for the downfall of society and the failure of modern marriage. These are women who sell their daughters hymens for a pretty dress and a party. You want me to have compassion for them while they want to shove their values down my throat and refuse my daughters right to reproductive choice? They can just piss off.

[Triplet3]

I think sometimes the harshest snark can border on bullying, particularly when about people's personal appearance, which is why I don't participate in that. However, I think FJ does an extremely valuable job in showing how incredibly harmful and damaging fundamentalism can be. To be honest, much of what is said here absolutely pales in comparison with some of the bile that fundies spew; and any case, saying that fundies who produce bile such as 'gays should be stoned' are horrible people is NOT bullying, in my opinion.

[latraviata]

They often expect everyone to be okay and accepting with their decision to have one.

Your point is?

What about the accepting part, it is her decision isn't it?

How many women have asked you how many times if you are ok with their decision to terminate a pregnancy??

[Guest Anonymous]

I think I show as much compassion toward fundamentalists. They criticize me, I criticize them. They want to force me into their lifestyle, but I don't want to force them to do anything (except, perhaps, in cases where they are actively hurting other people, like the rampant child abuse).

Does compassion mean that I have to agree with everything they do? Not even. I dislike using abortion as birth control even while supporting a universal right to choose. I dislike patriarchal culture even while supporting their right to live that way.

I know that black-and-white thinkers believe that you must personally approve of other people's choices. Step beyond that, devilsadvocate. You can dislike someone's choices, but feel compassion for them and support their right to make those choices, can't you? Isn't that what Jesus would do? He obviously did not like prostitution, but he acted compassionately toward prostitutes.

You're right, but didn't Jesus also tell them to "Go and sin no more." ? While he showed them compassion, he also pointed out sinful behavior. I totally accept women who have had abortions in that I do feel compassion toward them and would never point a finger at them and tell them that they were going to hell or that they should somehow suffer eternally for choosing that. But I also do not condone abortion or see it as something that is right or good. Drug addicts have a right to choose to be addicts and if a drug addict came to me for help, I would be willing to help them get clean, but I would not be willing to help them get drugs. In the same manner if a pregnant girl confided in me that she was pregnant and didn't know what to do, I would certainly be willing to help her find a counselor or someone who could help her, but if she asked me to drive her to the nearest abortion clinic, I could not in good conscience do that.

[latraviata]

[i had an abortion as an adult woman. I did not expect, or request compassion from anyone due to my choice to have a private legal medical procedure. *]

Same here I had an abortion 40 years ago and I didn't ask any acceptance or compassion, not even from my own very catholic mother.

[xDreamerx]

The simplest reason: Their lifestyle is dangerous to the people in it and to the world at large and some of their interests gain political traction via the larger conservative Christian right. I know we must be tolerant of others beliefs but by the same token there must be absolutes. Take for example the abuses of the FLDS church or the fact that some Christian groups advocate wifely submission even in abusive marriages. Those things can't be tolerated. If we become so liberal that we tolerate everything for the sake of individual rights than liberalism will in effect eat itself. Those were more obvious, clear cut examples, but to take the example of abortion and the anti-choice movement, I support their right to express that opinion but it would not be in the spirit of the Law or in the interest of the many to make abortions illegal. That would be allowing the minority to govern the majority. I guess I feel they only deserve my compassion in measure, because they are a threat and would work to limit my rights if they could, on many fronts.

[Witsec7]

I won't hold my breath waiting for this question to be answered.

[latraviata]

You're right, but didn't Jesus also tell them to "Go and sin no more." ? While he showed them compassion, he also pointed out sinful behavior. I totally accept women who have had abortions in that I do feel compassion toward them and would never point a finger at them and tell them that they were going to hell or that they should somehow suffer eternally for choosing that. But I also do not condone abortion or see it as something that is right or good. Drug addicts have a right to choose to be addicts and if a drug addict came to me for help, I would be willing to help them get clean, but I would not be willing to help them get drugs. In the same manner if a pregnant girl confided in me that she was pregnant and didn't know what to do, I would certainly be willing to help her find a counselor or someone who could help her, but if she asked me to drive her to the nearest abortion clinic, I could not in good conscience do that.

I am an atheist. I couldn't care less about Jesus.

[Guest Anonymous]

I won't hold my breath waiting for this question to be answered.

Three.

[fundiefan]

While they may not insist on everyone having one, they often expect everyone to be okay and accepting with their decision to have one.

Respecting the choice of one does not equate demanding everyone else have one, too or think it's a grand ol' thing for everyone to do. I did have an abortion and I don't expect anyone to be 'okay' with it. I don't care what anyone else thinks of it; it was my decision to make. I have no expectations regarding what others think of it. It's actually none of their business and there are very few people in my real life who know of my choice 20 years ago. Those who do know are people I trust with my life, so I trust them with my life's decisions. That is not exactly expecting 'everyone to be okay' with it. And, personally, I don't know anyone who has had an abortion and expects anything from anyone.

[Yo Nurse]

Mommy22alyns wrote:

Just off the top of my head, women who have had abortions generally won't insist on everyone having one and their way being the only right way and everyone else can go to hell.

devilsadvocate6 wrote:

While they may not insist on everyone having one, they often expect everyone to be okay and accepting with their decision to have one.

I have only known 2 women in my personal life who have admitted having abortions. Many patients tend not to disclose this type of information at all, sometimes waiting until her husband/boyfriend is out of the room before saying it. Statistically, I must know more women than this who have had abortions. My sense is that there is still a great deal of shame surrounding this procedure. I will admit to not knowing very many true fundamentalists, but the fundie-lite, Southern Baptists I know are more than happy to self-disclose.

I don't think very many women who have had abortions expect everyone to be ok with it. In fact, I think the opposite is true.

[Witsec7]

Three.

Thanks for admitting to that glittering generalization based on a sample of merely three.

[emmiedahl]

You're right, but didn't Jesus also tell them to "Go and sin no more." ? While he showed them compassion, he also pointed out sinful behavior. I totally accept women who have had abortions in that I do feel compassion toward them and would never point a finger at them and tell them that they were going to hell or that they should somehow suffer eternally for choosing that. But I also do not condone abortion or see it as something that is right or good. Drug addicts have a right to choose to be addicts and if a drug addict came to me for help, I would be willing to help them get clean, but I would not be willing to help them get drugs. In the same manner if a pregnant girl confided in me that she was pregnant and didn't know what to do, I would certainly be willing to help her find a counselor or someone who could help her, but if she asked me to drive her to the nearest abortion clinic, I could not in good conscience do that.

First, the Bible does not conclusively hold that abortion is wrong. There was a thread here about that topic.

Jesus may have pointed out sinful behavior, and I am fine with you and your ilk doing the same if you do it in a similarly calm, nonjudgmental way. If a woman comes to you for help, by all means help her in a way that is consistent with your beliefs. But you were advocating for throwing mothers in jail over reproductive choices while Christ tried to shield women from harsh and uncompassionate judgment. I guess you think you are more fit to judge than even your Messiah?

You are trying to force other women to live according to your own beliefs, and then calling me uncompassionate if I merely discuss another person living in a way I find distasteful. Surely you can see the difference.

Me="you can choose, I will have my opinions."

You="I will choose and other people need to live in a way that I personally agree with."

[liltwinstar]

I see what you mean to a point. However, having grown up in a fundamentalist household, I've also seen the damage that these beliefs can do. I still deal with all kinds of issues every day because of how I was raised...and this is after *years* of therapy.

Remember that in most cases we're talking about adults who, after having relatively "normal" upbringings themselves have *chosen* to isolate themselves and their children, have *chosen* to bring more children into the world than they can adequately care for (in terms of food, clothing, a safe place to sleep, and medical care), who are willfully blind to the consequence of their actions, who give up all common sense in order to follow whatever guru they think is "godly" enough (Pearl, Phillips, Rushdoony, etc etc). In many cases, these people deny their children the opportunity for education or to have any choice/agency in their futures. Sometimes they beat and/or starve their kids.

Who do we blame? Do we blame the men for "leading" their families into Gothardism, into VFism? Are the women innocent victims in all this? I think not. These are adult women who, in most cases, know better. They know that hitting children for 12 hours is wrong. They know that withholding food/education is wrong. And they do it anyway. That's snark worthy to me.

If all this board was about was snarking on weight and wacky hairstyles and tater tot casserole, that would be one thing. But there are serious issues here, serious abuses being perpetuated in the name of God, and I think those are the things that most posters snark/focus on.

Is it better to read about children who are beaten to death and say nothing becuase it might make someone feel bad? No.

I have compassion for anyone digging themselves out of a destructive lifestyle. I've been there myself. I don't have compassion for people who are willlfully hurting their children.

[Linnea]

I totally accept women who have had abortions in that I do feel compassion toward them and would never point a finger at them and tell them that they were going to hell or that they should somehow suffer eternally for choosing that.

Am I mixing you up with someone else, or do you also advocate that they should be put in jail?

[edited to fix quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

So if the women themselves who have had abortions don't want or expect compassion, then why was I told I should have compassion toward them? I guess I don't understand why I should be expected to have compassion toward something that I see as morally wrong when even the women who have had abortions don't expect compassion.

[treemom]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the comments made about feeling compassion towards women who choose to have abortions. But I am wondering why this same compassion that many express here toward women who choose abortion isn't shown to the women who are living a fundie lifestyle? We don't know their true position in life or why they have chosen to live and believe as they do. We don't truly know what their circumstances are in their homes. Perhaps they are miserable and tired of wearing a mask to cover their true feelings. But it is also possible that they are happy and content and so are their children. Since it seems that women who choose abortion are seen as just making a choice that they feel is the right decision and are therefore accepted and applauded here, then why not accept and applaud the decisions of people who also believe they are doing what is best for their family and children?

I can understand the snarking against those that you see as creating the fundie lifestyle and the ones perpetuating it, but aren't these women deserving of the same compassion as the women who choose abortion? I am wondering how it would make you all feel if you found out one day when logging on that one of the women or girls you snark on has committed suicide because she just couldn't handle the things that were being said here about her and her family. Some of these women could be extremely emotionally fragile and who knows what could drive them over the edge. Would you feel all justified and be high-fiving each other for a job well done? Would there be any regret or change to the board? I see a lot of what is said on this board as being nothing more than cyber bullying - except that instead of it being done by kids it is being done by adults who should know a better way to handle things.

If these women are taught that what they believe is right and that the world will hate them because of their beliefs then your snarking on them is just further proof that what they are being taught is correct. Wouldn't you be more likely to help someone stuck in the fundie lifestyle by offering compassionate and helpful thoughts and comments? Perhaps some of these women are actually having second thoughts in their heads but they haven't verbalized them because of the thought of being seen as a sinner or as a bad wife or mother. Wouldn't kind and compassionate comments be more likely to help someone in this position rather than the harsh criticism they so often receive?

I guess I just don't totally understand the lack of compassion toward these women.

I am fine with however anyone wants to live as long as they aren't hurting actual human beings that exist (like their children) or if they aren't moralizing and saying God demands these things.

I never have told anyone else to get an abortion...that is why I deserve the compassion :)

[Eclipse]

While they may not insist on everyone having one, they often expect everyone to be okay and accepting with their decision to have one.

I think that is plain wrong. Most women who have abortions keep it secret or tell very few people because of the vitriol and condemnation that choice often receives in public. I have never met one women who has had an abortion who expects everyone to accept that decision and be OK with it because all you have to do is turn on the evening news to know how a large part of society is vehemently opposed to those who have had an abortion.

Women are a varied group and women who have had an abortion are not one massive group who all think the same. Most want the right to choose what happens to their bodies to be protected. It is an individual choice for every woman to decide based on what is best for her in her situation.

If a woman asked me to give her a ride to an abortion clinic, I would. If a woman asked me to give her a ride to her fundie wedding, and her rights, choices and personality will be limited from then on, I don't think i could do that.

[Guest Anonymous]

Am I mixing you up with someone else, or do you also advocate that they should be put in jail?

[edited to fix quote]

As long as it is legal, then no, they should not be put in jail. If it were to become illegal at some point in time, then they should be held to the laws of the land the same as everyone else.

[treemom]

While they may not insist on everyone having one, they often expect everyone to be okay and accepting with their decision to have one.

No you don't have to be ok with it..you being ok with it doesn't matter to me. But when you advocate it becoming illegal, well then I think you are fucked up. And I will make sure that you have to define what that means. Like the death penalty or jail time for women like me.

[Lainey]

Three.

Well that's just bizarre. How did that come up? How did they word it? Was it like, "Hey, do you mind if I have an abortion?"

Just out of curiosity, why do you hang around if you think we're a bunch of bullies? And who have we snarked on that you feel deserves more compassion? I need an example.