Where's the compassion? Abortion vs Fundie Lifestyle

[treemom]

Three.

I never asked anyone to be ok with it. If they weren't ok with it they were no longer a part of my life.

[Guest Anonymous]

First, the Bible does not conclusively hold that abortion is wrong. There was a thread here about that topic.

Jesus may have pointed out sinful behavior, and I am fine with you and your ilk doing the same if you do it in a similarly calm, nonjudgmental way. If a woman comes to you for help, by all means help her in a way that is consistent with your beliefs. But you were advocating for throwing mothers in jail over reproductive choices while Christ tried to shield women from harsh and uncompassionate judgment. I guess you think you are more fit to judge than even your Messiah?

You are trying to force other women to live according to your own beliefs, and then calling me uncompassionate if I merely discuss another person living in a way I find distasteful. Surely you can see the difference.

Me="you can choose, I will have my opinions."

You="I will choose and other people need to live in a way that I personally agree with."

I never said they should be thrown in jail. As I posted just a minute ago, as long as it is legal, then they should not face any sort of prosecution since they have not broken the law. If at some point in time the law changed and it went back to being illegal then breaking that law would have consequences the same as breaking any law.

[treemom]

So if the women themselves who have had abortions don't want or expect compassion, then why was I told I should have compassion toward them? I guess I don't understand why I should be expected to have compassion toward something that I see as morally wrong when even the women who have had abortions don't expect compassion.

Because you are wrong.

[emmiedahl]

Yep, Linnea, that was her. And if I recall correctly, she refused to answer on whether she would advocate for the death penalty. I think she is also the one who was against all government aid and raised her kids on canned beans, sleeping in a car. DA, You did say that they should be tried for murder, right? That will get them jail time or death penalty, no way around it.

So if the women themselves who have had abortions don't want or expect compassion, then why was I told I should have compassion toward them? I guess I don't understand why I should be expected to have compassion toward something that I see as morally wrong when even the women who have had abortions don't expect compassion.

One should always temper judgment with mercy. The individuals themselves may not need your approval, but you can have general compassion toward people in difficult situations and seek to help them as a group, rather than hurt them as a group.

[treemom]

As long as it is legal, then no, they should not be put in jail. If it were to become illegal at some point in time, then they should be held to the laws of the land the same as everyone else.

Do you want it to be illegal?

[FloraDoraDolly]

For me, abortions fall into the category of "Too Much Information." Unless the woman is a family member or a very close friend and needs me for support, I don't feel comfortable knowing about someone's abortion experience(s). But yes, I will be supportive/compassionate if someone within my close inner circle feels she needs to have an abortion for whatever reason.

[treemom]

Yep, Linnea, that was her. And if I recall correctly, she refused to answer on whether she would advocate for the death penalty. I think she is also the one who was against all government aid and raised her kids on canned beans, sleeping in a car. DA, You did say that they should be tried for murder, right? That will get them jail time or death penalty, no way around it.

One should always temper judgment with mercy. The individuals themselves may not need your approval, but you can have general compassion toward people in difficult situations and seek to help them as a group, rather than hurt them as a group.

Oh well then since we have confirmation...DevilsAdovocate...I think you owe me an answer to a question.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well that's just bizarre. How did that come up? How did they word it? Was it like, "Hey, do you mind if I have an abortion?"

Just out of curiosity, why do you hang around if you think we're a bunch of bullies? And who have we snarked on that you feel deserves more compassion? I need an example.

For one example, the gal with the horse (Raquel?). She is a teen and I think adults snarking on teens is bullying at its worst.

[latraviata]

I see what you mean to a point. However, having grown up in a fundamentalist household, I've also seen the damage that these beliefs can do. I still deal with all kinds of issues every day because of how I was raised...and this is after *years* of therapy.

Tell me about it. As a developmental psychologist I have seen the damage done to children caused by a religious upbringing.

[Eclipse]

So if the women themselves who have had abortions don't want or expect compassion, then why was I told I should have compassion toward them? I guess I don't understand why I should be expected to have compassion toward something that I see as morally wrong when even the women who have had abortions don't expect compassion.

Are you Christian? I think yo are and if so, I think that is your answer. At least I was always taught and took from my own bible study that compassion for other humans is a basic tenet of Christianity.

[emmiedahl]

DA, Raquel is keeping the horse improperly, where is your compassion for the horse? Should an animal be abused and we have nothing to say about it?

[Eclipse]

Because you are wrong.

This.

And Treemom, you're awesome.

[fundiefan]

Because you are wrong.

You are attempting to make something that is none of your business your business.

If women choosing abortion do not ask for or want your compassion, then, well, go away. Who expects you to have compassion for them when they don't want or expect it? Who told you to have compassion? Why were you told? Who the hell knows. That depends on who told you, when, what their motives are/were and under what circumstances the conversation was held.

No one here is responsible for making you feel good about how you feel regarding women who made a medical, personal choice. If you don't want to feel compassion, by all means, don't.

I don't honestly get the point of this, what you're looking for, what you expect others to say, or what you expect to come from it.

[Lainey]

For one example, the gal with the horse (Raquel?). She is a teen and I think adults snarking on teens is bullying at its worst.

I'm not very familiar with this person. What was said that you felt was too mean?

And what about my question about how it was worded when these three people asked you if you were okay with their decision to terminate their pregnancy?

[treemom]

For me, abortions fall into the category of "Too Much Information." Unless the woman is a family member or a very close friend and needs me for support, I don't feel comfortable knowing about someone's abortion experience(s). But yes, I will be supportive/compassionate if someone within my close inner circle feels she needs to have an abortion for whatever reason.

Just to explain myself here...I decided a long time ago if I stayed quiet about my experience know one would no the real stories, the women and families behind this.

[treemom]

This.

And Treemom, you're awesome.

Thanks.

[Renting with Raggles]

Isn't devilsadvocate6 the one who bathed her kids in a river?

If they had died from a water-borne infection I would feel compassion towards them, not you. Ditto if they died because you wouldn't provide them adequate medical treatment. If these women delight in wilful ignorance of basic science to the point that they endanger the health of existent children, what compassion do they deserve from anyone?

[latraviata]

I never said they should be thrown in jail. As I posted just a minute ago, as long as it is legal, then they should not face any sort of prosecution since they have not broken the law. If at some point in time the law changed and it went back to being illegal then breaking that law would have consequences the same as breaking any law.

Well why bother to send them to jail when it is an illegal abortion. I mean the chance they die from infection, because of dirty knitting needles (very popular in the Netherlands before abortion was legal) and other tools to perform an illegal abortion.

Because women will terminate an unwanted pregnancy with or without your approval and compassion.

[Guest Anonymous]

Do you want it to be illegal?

Personally, yes, I think it should be illegal except in instances of saving the mothers life. And if it were illegal, it would not be up to me to decide on the penalty. I would not expect it to carry a severe or harsh sentence nor would it carry the death penalty. I would be ok with a fairly lenient sentence that included counseling. I would also be ok with the sentence being dependent on the circumstances. Sort of like how a crime of passion can carry a lighter sentence than one carried out in cold blood. So a woman who had multiple illegal abortions and it could be proven that she was using it as birth control would get a heavier sentence than a person who just found out that their unborn child would have such severe deformities that it would not live past a few days or weeks and would be in constant pain or suffering would get perhaps a very light sentence or community service.

[emmiedahl]

And what about my question about how it was worded when these three people asked you if you were okay with their decision to terminate their pregnancy?

They came to her because it is well-known that she and only she has a direct telephone line to God, which makes her the sole arbiter of Bible interpretation. Because the Bible verses on abortion are ambiguous and seem to favor the pro-choice side, she picked up the line and called God, who told her not to let these women have abortions.

He also told her to disregard all that crap in the Bible about helping the poor, and that these women should raise the children in dire poverty, perhaps living in a car.

[treemom]

Personally, yes, I think it should be illegal except in instances of saving the mothers life. And if it were illegal, it would not be up to me to decide on the penalty. I would not expect it to carry a severe or harsh sentence nor would it carry the death penalty. I would be ok with a fairly lenient sentence that included counseling. I would also be ok with the sentence being dependent on the circumstances. Sort of like how a crime of passion can carry a lighter sentence than one carried out in cold blood. So a woman who had multiple illegal abortions and it could be proven that she was using it as birth control would get a heavier sentence than a person who just found out that their unborn child would have such severe deformities that it would not live past a few days or weeks and would be in constant pain or suffering would get perhaps a very light sentence or community service.

You are fucked up.

Why should I have to do community service? Why do women need counseling?

What if it were illegal and flew to another country to procure it?

Why do you think my medical choices get to be decided on by a judge and jury?

And why in the world do you want it to be illegal?

[fundiefan]

Personally, yes, I think it should be illegal except in instances of saving the mothers life. And if it were illegal, it would not be up to me to decide on the penalty. I would not expect it to carry a severe or harsh sentence nor would it carry the death penalty. I would be ok with a fairly lenient sentence that included counseling. I would also be ok with the sentence being dependent on the circumstances. Sort of like how a crime of passion can carry a lighter sentence than one carried out in cold blood. So a woman who had multiple illegal abortions and it could be proven that she was using it as birth control would get a heavier sentence than a person who just found out that their unborn child would have such severe deformities that it would not live past a few days or weeks and would be in constant pain or suffering would get perhaps a very light sentence or community service.

Glad to know what you, personally, would be ok with. Only, I would not be ok with any of it. So, who gets to make the rules for whom?

[Gizmola]

This wackadoodle also thinks government aid is evil and that if the US were to offer universal healthcare then we'd become a nation of lazy couch potatoes doing nothing more than waiting for the evil government to support us all.

DA - you're a troll. And not a very interesting troll at that. You're not confused about the compassion questions. It's not a difficult concept to comprehend. Your "innocent" confusion is just a way to bait us at best. It's passive aggressive nonsense.

I think you're an asshole and think you should just fuck off.

treemom wrote:

Just to explain myself here...I decided a long time ago if I stayed quiet about my experience know one would no the real stories, the women and families behind this.

To open yourself up like that to educate others is heroic. Thank you.

[Boogalou]

I speak only for myself when I say this, but I do have compassion for the people we snark on here, but I continue to snark. With few exceptions these people have blogs/books/shows/organizations/etc. that are meant to witness and convert people to their way of thinking and believing. I disagree with these beliefs and since most are only too happy to delete anything negative said about them I feel that the other side needs to be presented and this is what we do here in an often snarky way. They present their beliefs and we present ours, I don't think that is being mean, its having a different opinion.

But devilsadvocate6, here is where I will agree with you. Sometimes I think that the snark goes too far (and dear God, don't bite my head off and accuse me of hand slapping, I just think it sometimes but keep my mouth shut about it. I am not trying to change what anyone says here or how they say it). There have been times where I was about to post something but didn't because it was overly mean and these people are real people with real feelings. However, this board is made up of all sorts with different opinions and people can express them however they want.

And I don't think a woman getting an abortion and someone writing a blog saying "LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEE!! I am perfect and wonderful and terrific and if you don't live exactly like me your doing it wrong and going to hell!" is quite the same thing. Now, if a woman opened up a blog and said she had 17 abortions and everyone else should do it too or they are going to hell and Jesus hates them, then I would snark away. I don't find the two situations comparable.

*sits back and waits for thread to blow up, knowing devilsadvocate6 will leave once things go south*

[emmiedahl]

DevilsAdvocate, why do you think that you get to make the rules and that other people should be forced to live by them? We have a conservative, Christian Supreme Court that has upheld abortion as a personal choice. Most people feel that it is okay in most circumstances. Why should your extremist views affect my access to medical care?