Katie and Travis 5: Baby Makes Three

[JDuggs]

I’m such an ungirlie girl, I have never had or wanted pierced ears. I couldn’t see myself making that decision for my daughter. She decided for herself at like 9 or 10 years old to get them pierced. Now at 25, I think the holes are still there, but earrings aren’t her jewelry of choice.

I didn’t like Katie’s chattering at Hailey how beautiful she was with earrings and now she looked like a princess. That’s obviously the only thing that’s important to Katie. It’s like she can’t see that Hailey is a perfect baby even without earrings and painted toenails.

I tried to see if the other Gen 3 Bates girls had pierced ears. Of course Layla got hers pierced for social media content. I think Allie Webster does, but not the rest of her sisters. I don’t think any of the rest of them are pierced.

[gobucks]

Allie's piercing was very recent. Was it for her 8th birthday? I feel like that's appropriate. She is already a sister mom and responsible enough to get everyone settled into their school day before their mom wakes up. She should be able to handle the care of them. 

[backyard sylph]

Is ear piercing girly? I mean, people do it to specifically girls, with or without consent, for traditional/cultural reasons or just because, in the case of these groups of people, to instill some girlyness in them. But in general, just getting holes in your ears is something anyone can do or not do, regardless of sex or gender. Small gauges seem to be popular among the men at my job. 

I know that's a bit of a tangent; I just sometimes think about what people mean when they say they are very girly or not girly. I tend to think maybe I'm quite girly, but then, I've never spent a lot of time on my hair or eyebrows, I don't like Cosmos or mimosas, or getting manicures. I love plants and lipstick and fairy lights and Georgette Heyer. 

In the 19th century, tattoos were a thing for many women, and in most of the 20th century, they were definitely not a thing for most women. And now they are for everybody, though not me, cause I'm girly like that. 😉

I'd love to have a really good discussion at some point/place about being girly or womanly or not, and what things are sort of inherent versus stereotypical, and also if stereotypical is okay when it isn't forced on people, which, I think it is. Etcetera. The fundies don't seem to question any of it, do they? 

[JDuggs]

@backyard sylph I’m the one who suggested that earrings are for girlie girls. I probably have lots of thoughts on the subject, so I’ll randomly throw them out. I think that most young girls who want to have pierced ears do it so they can wear pretty earrings and look pretty. I think mothers like Katie thrust this narrative on their infants that they need to have pierced ears so they can look pretty and feminine. Katie wouldn’t have had her infant boy’s ears pierced.

Personally, I’m not into jewelry. The only jewelry I currently wear is my wedding band. I don’t wear makeup. The last time I had a manicure was for my wedding 30 years ago. I only wear dresses on special occasions like weddings. I do get my hair dyed though. I want to appear presentable, but I don’t really care about looking “put together.” I just don’t consider myself ultra feminine, a girlie girl.

My son has recently pierced ears. He was wearing small gold hoops the first time extended family saw him. Three of us called him a pirate and we moved on with our day. I don’t think that men with earrings are girlie girls, but I think women without pierced ears are generally not girlie girls. 

[OldFadedStar]

I've heard of alot of moms getting the babies ears pierced so they wont be confused with a boy. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Yet my older son was mistaken for a girl wearing boy gendered clothes. Although I will say, he was a very pretty baby. 

[CarrotCake]

To be honest, over here mostly people with other cultural backgrounds or low socialeconomic status get their baby's ears pierced. So if I see a white baby with pierced ears I do immediately form an opinion on their parents and I find it looking quite 'trashy'. But that probably also differs between countries/cultures where it is more mainstream. 

I got my ears pierced when I was 12, most girls here will get it somewhere between 8 and 15, or not at all. 

I also have to be honest that if my son would ask I would probably not let him until he is 16 and I don't have a say about it anymore. If I would have a daughter I would let her have it at 10-12 years probably so also there I am keeping double standards because I think boys (not neccesarily men) with pierced ears also look 'trashy'.

[backyard sylph]

23 hours ago, JDuggs said:

@backyard sylph I’m the one who suggested that earrings are for girlie girls. I probably have lots of thoughts on the subject, so I’ll randomly throw them out. I think that most young girls who want to have pierced ears do it so they can wear pretty earrings and look pretty. I think mothers like Katie thrust this narrative on their infants that they need to have pierced ears so they can look pretty and feminine. Katie wouldn’t have had her infant boy’s ears pierced.

Personally, I’m not into jewelry. The only jewelry I currently wear is my wedding band. I don’t wear makeup. The last time I had a manicure was for my wedding 30 years ago. I only wear dresses on special occasions like weddings. I do get my hair dyed though. I want to appear presentable, but I don’t really care about looking “put together.” I just don’t consider myself ultra feminine, a girlie girl.

My son has recently pierced ears. He was wearing small gold hoops the first time extended family saw him. Three of us called him a pirate and we moved on with our day. I don’t think that men with earrings are girlie girls, but I think women without pierced ears are generally not girlie girls. 

I think that I grew up thinking I was actually not very feminine because all these girls I knew were doing all the lady things that I didn't feel (was definitely not) good at, but then as I began to mature, I realized I was very feminine anyway, and ever since then I've pondered this topic from time to time. Then I thought of myself, as an adult, as womanly, while I knew other women my age who still called themselves girls. Which is fine, I just didn't quite get why, then. But at some point I realized I was just naturally feminine without being particularly girly. Definitions often confuse me, at least, how they are applied. I think lately there isn't quite enough nuance. Maybe there never was, but it mattered less to many people? 

Anyway, a woman can be quite womanly without being feminine at all, or very feminine but also strong-minded, for god's sake, or as girly as she likes, or boyish or mannish if she likes or it feels more natural. And then too, live as or externally become a man, if that's necessary for inner well-being.

I just suppose I thought back in the 80s that would all be old hat by now, as many people were exploring androgyny as a specific desired state, and thinking about what it really meant to be masculine or feminine, but these nutballs have got a lot of stuff backwards, and a lot to answer for. I blame Jerry Falwell. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

How they will never see the irony. The Clark family school is indoctrination into their narrow version of Christianity. And all the fundie homeschoolers are indoctrinating their own children through isolation and fear. But sure, public schools are doing the indoctrination. I hope he loses big time. 

[Keys]

I’ll admit that the first thought I had when Katie pierced Hailey’s ears was, ugh, of course she did. But I have to say, this is a very mature response. Also looks like she took her to a professional piercer instead of a place that uses guns, which is good. 
 

[indianabones]

Of course Katie is equivalating modifying her child's body to having her baby vaccinated...

Ear piercing isn't on the same level as circumcision or tattoos, but it's still body modification. And unlike shots, medicine, food, sun protection, etc- ear piercing isn't important or necessary for a child's well-being.

[Marly]

I might get a lot of hate for this: I don't care if it's cultural or not, I very much believe that unnecessary body modifications should not be done to babies, and ear piercings are a form of unnecessary body modification.
There are a lot of things that are cultural yet also very harmful. 'Cultural' does not equal good, and does not mean something should just be allowed or accepted as normal. And for me, piercing an unconsenting baby's ears is one of those practices. (I feel the same about circumsizing male babies.)

I also dislike that it's mainly being done to unconsenting baby girls, since girls and women already don't have a lot of bodily autonomy. To me, piercing a baby's ears reinforces the idea that their body is not theirs.

[llucie]

Well personally i am glad my parents pierced my ears as a baby. In their case it was cultural and not a personal decision, it was done in the hospital by a nurse, but still to me it has only been positive, i didnt had to go trought that disconfort as an adult or remember it at all, i now can wear earrings when i want or not. I actually dont wear them most of the time but thats not a problem since the hole wont close if you had them as a baby, or at least its very rare. I find clip-on earrings extremely painful so i feel sorry for the people that have to wear those.

[SassyPants]

Katie’s reasoning regarding piercing now to avoid infection is flawed. How does not piercing a baby’s ears lead to increased infection? It’s the piercing that increases the risk of infection, not the age that the recipient is when the ears are pierced.  

[CanadianMamam]

I don't think this is just about ear piercing. Katie's parents didn't let her pierce her ears and they didn't give her the knowledge/tools to know how to do it safely and she got harmed because of it. She wants to protect her daughter from that. 

44 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Katie’s reasoning regarding piercing now to avoid infection is flawed. How does not piercing a baby’s ears lead to increased infection? It’s the piercing that increases the risk of infection, not the age that the recipient is when the ears are pierced.  

The logic is that a baby is less likely to fight the cleaning process, fiddle with their ears the way a small child might. I was 8 when I got my pierced and I hated the cleaning process and I fiddled with them all the time (and yes they got infected). The idea is also that if you pierce them at a young age, the baby is just used to them being there. 

[0 kids n not countin]

Hmm, she got them pierced by someone with an "evil" tattoo, what would Erin think. Is she the one who made a comment about people with tattoos and green hair attending college, or maybe it was just green hair?

[Tangy Bee]

@JDuggs  you brought up the topic about your son's pierced ears. I've been seeing alot of infant & toddler boys with one pierced ear lately. I was a bit surprised by this at first, because I'm use to seeing older boys or adult men with pierced ears. I have to admit....it's kinda cute on the babies. But I've also noticed their mom's are under 25 so that might have something to do with it.🤔

[CanadianMamam]

1 hour ago, 0 kids n not countin said:

Hmm, she got them pierced by someone with an "evil" tattoo, what would Erin think. Is she the one who made a comment about people with tattoos and green hair attending college, or maybe it was just green hair?

I think it was just green hair. Travis has a cousin with tattoos who Travis is close too, so I think Travis & Katie aren't that judgemental at least. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I wonder if Katie got her ears pierced at a shitty place in the mall with a dirty piercing gun. If that’s the case, she can definitely blame that for the infection. Not her age. 

[candygirl200413]

@JermajestyDuggar she got it done at clarie's at the mall.

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

@JermajestyDuggar she got it done at clarie's at the mall.

Then of course she got an infection. It has nothing to do with her age 🙄

[QuiverFullofBooks]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Then of course she got an infection. It has nothing to do with her age 🙄

I’ve gotten my ears pierced at Claire’s multiple times, and while they did tend to close up, they never got infected.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I’ve gotten my ears pierced at Claire’s multiple times, and while they did tend to close up, they never got infected.

It’s been pretty well documented by people who have worked at Claire’s that they get very little training and don’t clean the gun properly. Those guns are hard to clean in general so it’s best to go to a professional piercer and use a needle. I got my ears pierced at Claire’s and had problems. I would never take a kid to get theirs pierced at Claire’s.

[Melissa1977]

Apparently, there are less infections and pain in little babies because the ear flesh is so tender that piercing is extremely easy. In my country, ALL the newborn baby girls were pierced just some days after birth. Nowadays it's less common, but still many babies are. I think it's not fine, because it's unnecessary and just for vanity and sexist. But the procedure itself is very easy. I don't blame parents who do it, but I think they should wait for the kid to ask for it. 

Just a curiosity, in Barcelona all the pierced little boys I see come from "chav" families, while pierced teenager boys come from whatever environtment. But pierced boys are a minority. It was quite fashionable in the 80s and 90s, but now it's kinda outdated. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Melissa1977
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[SorenaJ]

Ear piercing of a baby is non consensual body modification. End of story.