Katie and Travis 5: Baby Makes Three

[CanadianMamam]

1 hour ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

And here ovarian cysts bursting dropped me to the floor straight-up. No yelling, no screaming, I couldn't make any noise, the pain was simply blinding.

Luckily for me it was wasabi-style pain -ridiculously intense but not especially long-lasting.

I am so sorry. I mean it was painful but it was never unbearable. I did wonder if I had appendicitis the first time it happened. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I can’t keep saying it enough: I hope he loses the primary by a landslide. 

[Tdoc72]

9 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I had easy deliveries, but sooo painful. A had a natural one and an epidural one. Both painful. But I was lucky that I had excellent pospartums, though. 

I remember Michelle Duggar in her 15, 16? delivery implying that it's always hard. 

My grandma had 14 kids and I asked her once if it hurt every time. She said, “hell yes, every time!” 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I didn't get my epidural until I'd had 22.5hr of labor first.  I was so happy watching the contractions on the monitor and not feeling them!  Should have gotten it hours earlier and taken a freaking nap.

[mango_fandango]

There does seem to be a real competition among mothers about giving birth and doing it all “naturally” and without pain relief. It’s not just fundies. People say stuff like they want to “feel” everything. It’s just silly IMO. If I ever have kids then I will definitely want all the pain relief I can get!! 

C-sections in particular seem to be almost taboo. I remember JillRod talking about giving birth to Janessa (or one of the kids) how she was desperate to avoid a C-section. I mean, I realise that it’s major abdominal surgery and you’ll need to take the time to recover afterwards (although everyone is different of course), but still… it’s just weird. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by mango_fandango

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

There does seem to be a real competition among mothers about giving birth and doing it all “naturally” and without pain relief. It’s not just fundies. People say stuff like they want to “feel” everything. It’s just silly IMO. If I ever have kids then I will definitely want all the pain relief I can get!! 

C-sections in particular seem to be almost taboo. I remember JillRod talking about giving birth to Janessa (or one of the kids) how she was desperate to avoid a C-section. I mean, I realise that it’s major abdominal surgery and you’ll need to take the time to recover afterwards (although everyone is different of course), but still… it’s just weird. 

There is a ton of overlap between the crunchy community and the fundie quiverful community. And both bleed into aspects of giving birth in general. 

[just_ordinary]

I don’t get it either. I had a c-section with a basically not working epidural during labour and a VBAC with a wonderful epidural (so great I was convinced I could easily birth a baby every year). 
Apart from the “it’s a big surgery” (even though it doesn’t take longer than 30-45min which is amazing) aspect of the c-section both births were good. There was absolutely no difference in bonding or feeling like a superhero or whatever. The second you get to see and kiss and smell and hold your baby for the first time makes it completely irrelevant. So it really isn’t anything to judge people on. If someone wants to have the all natural experience fine. But objectively their birth won’t be more meaningful or better. And women most definitely shouldn’t feel bad, defeated or beat themselves up over a delivery that didn’t go according to plan. It doesn’t have to be a big trauma (not talking about a real dramatic emergency or health struggles for mum or babe afterwards obviously).

And I will say, while recovery from the c-section took a tad longer, it was definitely much nicer to my pelvic floor. That’s definitely a MASSIVE pro. I am not leaking or anything but I could have done without this part of a natural birth. Yes, it’s not a minor surgery, but it’s pretty common so doctor are well trained and with good pain management afterwards it’s actually incredibly how quickly you can be up on your feet again (almost directly after). Having someone with you for the first 2-6 weeks would be good though. Picking up a baby with cut muscles is not fun. If you can take it slow for the first weeks, recovery will be easier then if you have to strain your body before it’s ready.

[fluffernutter]

The push in many circles to have a drug-free birth, preferably at home, and then breastfeed effortlessly all while making homemade organic everything! and cloth diapering! and on and on, is a big reason I decided to become a doula. All that pressure can set a woman up to feel so badly about herself when things don't go as planned. Feeling like you failed before you're even out of the gate is just crazy. And women put so much pressure on themselves! One poor soul had a six page birth plan. 🤦‍♀️ I tried to hone in on staying flexible because no matter how prepared we think we are or how much we want it to go a certain way, labor and birth are entirely unpredictable. And I also tried to really drive home getting prepared for the postpartum period, which felt to me all three times like a truck drove straight through my body and a bomb dropped on my house and life. I have absolutely nothing against home birth- I worked as an assistant for an Amish home birth practice (JillRod would be so jealous) and had my last in a birth center. But holy hell it shouldn't be a competition or contest. Come out on the other side with a healthy mama and baby, and a mom who can look back on her birth experience and say "Wow I DID it! I am freaking amazing!" no matter how her experience played out should be what we aspire to. Ok. Clearly I have feelings on this. Climbing down from my soap box now. 😉

[Smash!]

On 6/2/2023 at 6:34 AM, mango_fandango said:

There does seem to be a real competition among mothers about giving birth and doing it all “naturally” and without pain relief. It’s not just fundies. People say stuff like they want to “feel” everything. It’s just silly IMO. If I ever have kids then I will definitely want all the pain relief I can get!! 

We as women are socialized to minimize our pain and discomfort. So many diseases that affect mostly women like migraines, endometriosis or autoimmune diseases are poorly understood yet the message always seems to be „it‘s not that bad. Stop being whiny/your pain is normal/stop overreacting“. It fits in that a birth without pain relief is seen as something to aspire to.

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

You’ll all be happy to know Mike Clark lost the primary yesterday. Let’s hope the Clarks take this as a hint and stay out of politics in the future. 

[Nothing if not critical]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

You’ll all be happy to know Mike Clark lost the primary yesterday. Let’s hope the Clarks take this as a hint and stay out of politics in the future. 

Pretty sure that's too much to hope, but nevertheless yay!

[Johannah]

On 6/2/2023 at 12:34 AM, mango_fandango said:

C-sections in particular seem to be almost taboo. I remember JillRod talking about giving birth to Janessa (or one of the kids) how she was desperate to avoid a C-section. I mean, I realise that it’s major abdominal surgery and you’ll need to take the time to recover afterwards (although everyone is different of course), but still… it’s just weird. 

There is a reason for this in quiverfull fundies in particular beyond just the crunchy overlap/women in pain are glorified by god trope. It’s very difficult to find a doc who will risk a VBAC, and no doctor will do a VBAC after 2 consecutive c-sections because it’s medically too risky. It’s inadvisable to have more than 3 c-sections because of medical risks to mom and baby (namely placenta accreta, where the placenta embeds into the uterine scar tissue, and uterine rupture, which is a life-threatening emergency). 

My OB is pro-VBAC and has several orthodox Jewish patients who seek her out for that reason. That community pushes as hard as they can for women to avoid c-sections because it would limit their family size. For most people, stopping at 3 kids is no big deal, but for Quiverfull fundies it would go against everything they preach. I would guess they would just keep risking their lives and going against medical advice but idk. 

Also, if these people are uninsured and paying out of pocket for births, c-sections would cost a fortune compared to paying the unlicensed lay midwife in prayer cards or whatever they do. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Mike is so pathetic 😂

[medimus]

16 hours ago, Johannah said:

There is a reason for this in quiverfull fundies in particular beyond just the crunchy overlap/women in pain are glorified by god trope. It’s very difficult to find a doc who will risk a VBAC, and no doctor will do a VBAC after 2 consecutive c-sections because it’s medically too risky. It’s inadvisable to have more than 3 c-sections because of medical risks to mom and baby (namely placenta accreta, where the placenta embeds into the uterine scar tissue, and uterine rupture, which is a life-threatening emergency). 

My OB is pro-VBAC and has several orthodox Jewish patients who seek her out for that reason. That community pushes as hard as they can for women to avoid c-sections because it would limit their family size. For most people, stopping at 3 kids is no big deal, but for Quiverfull fundies it would go against everything they preach. I would guess they would just keep risking their lives and going against medical advice but idk. 

Also, if these people are uninsured and paying out of pocket for births, c-sections would cost a fortune compared to paying the unlicensed lay midwife in prayer cards or whatever they do. 

Interesting that you say it is hard to find a doctor to do a VBAC, I guess this must be country specific, because here (in the UK) they will go for a VBAC if at all possible now. Obviously within medical reason.

I'm also interested in your experience with orthodox Jewish patients, in the mid 20th century in Ireland doctors did symphysiotomies instead of cesaereans so that women would not be limited to three children by the established three cesaerean limit of the time. Horrific surgery for religious reasons (contraception illegal at the time).

[mango_fandango]

Ok, now others have explained it, I now realise why some fundies want to avoid C-sections if it limits the number of kids they can have. 
I’ve never really understood having super-detailed birth plans. If there’s one thing you cannot plan, it’s giving birth. A six page plan sounds insane. And I guess social media plays a big part in it, with women posting about their super-amazing experiences and “our bodies are designed to give birth” and all that shit. But then, I’ve also noticed that social media emphasises extremes. Either birth is super-duper amazing and pain-free, or it’s absolutely horrendous and excruciatingly painful and all-around awful. There’s no space for any middle ground. (Not denying that some people do have smooth experiences or awful ones, just that those ones are always the ones talked about).

[4boysmum]

I shared my personal story in another thread so won't put all the details here.  But I have had 6 children and my last two were vba3c births.  I am in the USA so it is not *impossible* to get a doctor to agree to it.  But it is very difficult.  I fought hard for it.  I did research.  I switched doctors in very late pregnacy.  To me it was worth it 100% but no judgment whatsoever on any mother who feels a different choice is better for her circumstances.

I don't see any point in the Birth Olympics that seems to happen whenever women share birth stories.  I can't truly judge anyone's experience but my own and it was different every time.  Labor was more painful than surgery, but recovery was much quicker and easier.  My precipitous labor (barely made it to the hospital in time, no epidural because I came in already pushing) was the worst pain of my life but then the baby was out it was over, and that was the easiest recovery.  I have also had gallbladder attacks leading to a semi-emergency gallbladder removal.  At the time I told everyone the gallbladder attacks hurt worse than childbirth.  Now that I have had a baby with no pain meds at any point in the process... I don't say that anymore.

Of course, others may rank these painful experiences differently because we are different people in different bodies. I have heard people say kidney stones hurt worse than giving birth, but I have never had a kidney stone.  I do think the cute baby you get after childbirth skews things a little because you have a visible reminder of why it was worth it.  But that could just be me sitting here with my 2 month old who has recently started smiling and is so cute I could just eat him up....

[Melissa1977]

6 hours ago, medimus said:

in the mid 20th century in Ireland doctors did symphysiotomies instead of cesaereans so that women would not be limited to three children by the established three cesaerean limit of the time. Horrific surgery for religious reasons

I didn't know the procedure and I googled it. An absolute torture. Patriarchy has never ceased inventing new ways to use and destroy women, hasn't it?

[AussieKrissy]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:20 AM, Johannah said:

There is a reason for this in quiverfull fundies in particular beyond just the crunchy overlap/women in pain are glorified by god trope. It’s very difficult to find a doc who will risk a VBAC, and no doctor will do a VBAC after 2 consecutive c-sections because it’s medically too risky. It’s inadvisable to have more than 3 c-sections because of medical risks to mom and baby (namely placenta accreta, where the placenta embeds into the uterine scar tissue, and uterine rupture, which is a life-threatening emergency). 

My OB is pro-VBAC and has several orthodox Jewish patients who seek her out for that reason. That community pushes as hard as they can for women to avoid c-sections because it would limit their family size. For most people, stopping at 3 kids is no big deal, but for Quiverfull fundies it would go against everything they preach. I would guess they would just keep risking their lives and going against medical advice but idk. 

Also, if these people are uninsured and paying out of pocket for births, c-sections would cost a fortune compared to paying the unlicensed lay midwife in prayer cards or whatever they do. 

Out of Curiosity I can't recall if Jill D or Joy said if their last births were C sections or not. Because that would put Jill at 3 and I think in Aus Doctors only recommend four. So if I was her I would go for my fourth and have them tie my tubes while they are in there. or will she go against medical advice and have as many as she wants?

Joy was one C then natural delivery with Annabell and Evie but did she say with Gunner?

Thread drift in the wrong family soz not soz

 

9 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I didn't know the procedure and I googled it. An absolute torture. Patriarchy has never ceased inventing new ways to use and destroy women, hasn't it?

that is the shit of nightmares and horror movies F that...I got the general drift and stopped reading, puke. 

[medimus]

15 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I didn't know the procedure and I googled it. An absolute torture. Patriarchy has never ceased inventing new ways to use and destroy women, hasn't it?

Yes it is horrifying. Originally it would have been lifesaving, as a c section was an almost certain death sentence for the mother until the late 19th century. Still horrifying but when the alternative is death, possibly acceptable. 

So when c sections became safe, the scandal in Ireland is that they kept doing it for likely Catholic reasons (no need to stop after three babies if you haven't had a section).

There are still legitimate reasons to do them: if you are somewhere without electricity etc to do a c section or if the baby is stuck with shoulder dystocia which is a horribly scary emergency in which you have a few minutes to save the baby because they aren't getting oxygen in that position. Then it is the last option on a list that includes breaking the babies colar bone. Brutal but life saving. 

 

[mango_fandango]

Of course things are different here in the U.K. with regards to birth. Midwives are pretty standard. Midwifery is a 3 year degree course. I’m not sure about repeat C sections either, I have never given birth or even been pregnant. Although I’d guess it’s similar here to other countries.

[CaptainFunderpants]

"Highlights" from the latest Katie and Travis video:

-They went on their annual beach trip.
-Katie still hasn't passed her kidney stone.
-Hailey is teething.
-It appears that Kameron and Kay don't want Kayson on camera... They were all on vacation together and the Manarazes were mentioned and their voices were occasionally heard, but they basically weren't shown. I don't think we saw Kay once and we only saw Kameron briefly.
-Travis and Katie fought more than we've seen, as well as appeared more immature than we've seen in quite a while. They played a game that involved dunking the other's face in water and they both seemed annoyed/rather aggressive with the outcome.

[patsymae]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:23 AM, CanadianMamam said:

I had two epidurals. Labor still hurt up until that point where they give you the epidural (and my first epidural actually didn't work, but that is still a whole other story). I have also had a kidney stone and would take labor any day. Labor was shorter for one thing. 

I also don:t understand why these women constantly get shaded for getting an epidural?there are a ton of things to criticize them for but choosing pain relief during childbirth is not one of them. 

I wish they'd had epidurals in my day. I don't see what the glory is in suffering pain. My daughter-in-law had an epidural and like 15 minutes before delivering twins she was complaining about being bored. I was like, how about I slap the shit out of you? Would that liven things up?

[Kiki03910]

4 hours ago, patsymae said:

I wish they'd had epidurals in my day. I don't see what the glory is in suffering pain. My daughter-in-law had an epidural and like 15 minutes before delivering twins she was complaining about being bored. I was like, how about I slap the shit out of you? Would that liven things up?

I LOVE YOU.

15 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

"Highlights" from the latest Katie and Travis video:

-They went on their annual beach trip.
-Katie still hasn't passed her kidney stone.
-Hailey is teething.
-It appears that Kameron and Kay don't want Kayson on camera... They were all on vacation together and the Manarazes were mentioned and their voices were occasionally heard, but they basically weren't shown. I don't think we saw Kay once and we only saw Kameron briefly.
-Travis and Katie fought more than we've seen, as well as appeared more immature than we've seen in quite a while. They played a game that involved dunking the other's face in water and they both seemed annoyed/rather aggressive with the outcome.

This is what happens when 12-year-olds get married.

[HereticHick]

Travis writes a song, records it, releases it, and 2 days later its #22 on the Gospel chart. Lawson makes a such big honking deal about being a country singer, yet Travis is the one who can write a song that makes it on the charts (and not the first time, either). And his family has their own recording/mixing equipment so I bet his expenses are less.

[gobucks]

According to this week's video, it sounds like they are going to breed Remi again. Katie can't get into the specialist to "break" up the stone under twilight sleep until her birthday (Oct 5). Her PCP was surprised the ER didn't just go ahead and take care of it. They are expecting she will go into pain again and have to get it broken up in the ER prior to the appt in the fall. It can be so frustrating waiting for appointments to specialist doctors!

Edited June 16, 2023 by gobucks