Seriously Steve 4: Judging and Hating

[JermajestyDuggar]

What I think makes most people hopeful is that Sarah broke Steve’s rules. Steve had so many extra rules that other fundie dads didn’t have. He’s the definition of extra. He ranted about contrasting buttons for ducks sake. So the fact that Sarah, Mary, and Anna have not followed every single Stevhova rule makes a person think there may be more common fundie rules they will also leave behind (like living on her own because she didn’t want to be a SAHD anymore). That was a big step in my opinion. Many fundies have pushed the SAHD movement. 

[lunaselene503]

2 minutes ago, fundiewatch said:

@lunaselene503 have you never known anyone who has an evolution in their belief system? Your thinking is so black and white on this that it is almost Stehova-like. 

Not really. I've know people to make slight changes (I've made slight changes too) but ultimately people don't seem to make whole evolutions. I guess I'm more skeptical.

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, lunaselene503 said:

Not really. I've know people to make slight changes (I've made slight changes too) but ultimately people don't seem to make whole evolutions. I guess I'm more skeptical.

go check out the x-whatever videos on youtube. X-LDS, X-Catholic, X-JW, and so on. People can and do walk away from whatever beliefs they had or were raised with. 

[lunaselene503]

2 hours ago, feministxtian said:

go check out the x-whatever videos on youtube. X-LDS, X-Catholic, X-JW, and so on. People can and do walk away from whatever beliefs they had or were raised with. 

Oh, I'm aware of X-whatever videos and communities. It's just that I don't know anyone irl who waked away from a set of beliefs. Thank you though!

[JermajestyDuggar]

22 minutes ago, lunaselene503 said:

Oh, I'm aware of X-whatever videos and communities. It's just that I don't know anyone irl who waked away from a set of beliefs. Thank you though!

I grew up baptist going to church every Sunday. I was definitely a believer in god and Jesus. I was baptized by choice. I now don’t believe in Jesus or Christianity. I believe none of it. I have no religion and I’m fine with it. 

[CTRLZero]

3 hours ago, feministxtian said:

go check out the x-whatever videos on youtube. X-LDS, X-Catholic, X-JW, and so on

This is my current obsession.  So many ex-whatever stories, so much crazy church history, doctrine, rituals, etc.  Very informative, heartbreaking, enraging—so many cults, so little time.  My daughter is calling this, “mom’s You Tube phase,” lol.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

23 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

This is my current obsession.  So many ex-whatever stories, so much crazy church history, doctrine, rituals, etc.  Very informative, heartbreaking, enraging—so many cults, so little time.  My daughter is calling this, “mom’s You Tube phase,” lol.  

See my x story isn’t interesting at all. It’s all very boring. Nothing dramatic happened at all. I wasn’t in a cult. I wasn’t shunned. I just don’t believe anymore. And you just can’t force yourself to believe. I kind of want to see someone tell a story like that. So I can relate. But that would get like 5 views and maybe a single like. 

[lunaselene503]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I grew up baptist going to church every Sunday. I was definitely a believer in god and Jesus. I was baptized by choice. I now don’t believe in Jesus or Christianity. I believe none of it. I have no religion and I’m fine with it. 

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope it didn't seem like I was saying people can't change beliefs. It definitely happens. I just have never seen it in person.

[feministxtian]

3 hours ago, lunaselene503 said:

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope it didn't seem like I was saying people can't change beliefs. It definitely happens. I just have never seen it in person.

You sounded like you didn't believe for a minute that people can change beliefs. Just because it doesn't happen within your circle doesn't mean it doesn't happen. 

[kpmom]

I agree with @JermajestyDuggar’s take that we are hopeful for the Maxwell daughters’ future because they actually broke ( or changed?) some long standing Maxwell rules. 
 

And those weren’t even only Steve’s rules. These rules were written as part of their “family vision” that the children supposedly helped develop and signed off on. 
This family vision specifically said:

The children will not attend college 

The children will live at home until married. 
 

There were other rules, too, but I remember those two. 
 

it would be tempting to say maybe Steve lightened up in his old age and changed some of the rules, but looking at his Seriously Steve posts, there ain’t no lightening up there. 
Meaning the daughters must have done some advocating for themselves.  Good for them  

Even if they do end up as run of the mill fundie wives, and they might, there was a time we weren’t sure if even that was going to happen for them.  

 

[Hane]

11 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

See my x story isn’t interesting at all. It’s all very boring. Nothing dramatic happened at all. I wasn’t in a cult. I wasn’t shunned. I just don’t believe anymore. And you just can’t force yourself to believe. I kind of want to see someone tell a story like that. So I can relate. But that would get like 5 views and maybe a single like. 

This pretty much describes my departure from Catholicism. There is much about my former church that I’ll always value—the sense of togetherness, the emphasis on justice and compassion—but my dedication to social issues saw me out. I mean, if the church had more inclusive views on empowerment of women, marriage equality, and reproductive freedom, I might still be there pretending to believe in the virgin birth and the resurrection.

[SisterCupcake]

58 minutes ago, Hane said:

This pretty much describes my departure from Catholicism. There is much about my former church that I’ll always value—the sense of togetherness, the emphasis on justice and compassion—but my dedication to social issues saw me out. I mean, if the church had more inclusive views on empowerment of women, marriage equality, and reproductive freedom, I might still be there pretending to believe in the virgin birth and the resurrection.

Same. I was raised Catholic K-12 and just sort of wandered away when I was 18 in the. military on my own. I found a really progressive Methodist church in my 20s (Green Street Church, Winston-Salem, NC for the win!) and hung out with them for awhile, but eventually realized I just didn't believe the basics of Christianity anymore and felt kind of like a fraud. I stayed with them until I moved (because the people are awesome!) and then just kind of didn't bother finding another church. But I found a spiritual home in my sober community, so there's that anyway.

[FluffySnowball]

While I’m an ex-catholic, I didn’t ask away from religion altogether but became Muslim over a decade ago. So in a way, changing beliefs and finding my own way isn’t unfamiliar to me, either.

I personally think it’s best to choose one’s own faith… this can entail staying in the religion one was raised with, becoming agnostic, atheist, or joining a different faith altogether. But at least from my personal experience (and I don’t mean to offend anyone or say that this must be the case for everybody), simply continuing on with traditions one encountered as a child doesn’t allow for spirituality or real conviction. So even staying with the “family faith” needs to be a conscious choice. At least that’s how I think about it. 

[ClareDeLune]

6 hours ago, kpmom said:

I agree with @JermajestyDuggar’s take that we are hopeful for the Maxwell daughters’ future because they actually broke ( or changed?) some long standing Maxwell rules. 
 

And those weren’t even only Steve’s rules. These rules were written as part of their “family vision” that the children supposedly helped develop and signed off on. 
This family vision specifically said:

The children will not attend college 

The children will live at home until married. 
 

There were other rules, too, but I remember those two. 
 

 

I went looking for this and found the Family Vision Statement but kept clicking links and lost it again.  (His blogs of his amazingly strict rules are more addictive than the Beastly TV 🤣)

While I go back and look, here is where I wandered to: Young Jesse planning to homeschool his children, with the lofty aspiration that they will be literate by the time they graduate. 😂 Bonus great caption on the photo: "Jesse Maxwell standing in an arch" https://blog.titus2.com/2014/01/22/7-reasons-why-i-plan-to-homeschool-my-children/

 

Edit: Found it! There a couple of Steve posts from 10 years or so ago about building a family vision statement, but they look at the time as though it was Steve's vision rather than a shared one. And in them a link to a free download of a chapter from one of his books. https://titus2.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Time-sample.pdf

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Maxwell Family Vision Statement

By God’s grace, each member of the family would have a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and serve Him (John 3:16, Hebrews 9:14) and:

– joyfully serve others (Galatians 5:13, Colossians 3:17, Romans 12:1)

– be obedient (John 14:15)

– respect others (Romans 12:10)

– be self-disciplined (Galatians 5:23)

– love children (Matthew 19:14)

– pursue holiness (Romans 12:1, Titus 1:8, 1 Peter 1:15-16)

– court and not date (Romans 12:1)

– live as ambassadors for Christ, including speaking, writing, and dressing appropriately (Colossians 3:17)

– be lovers of God more than lovers of pleasures (2 Timothy 3:4)

– learn to edify rather than criticize (Romans 14:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:11)

– be content (Philippians 4:11)

– be “wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil” (Romans 16:19)

– love His Word, have a good understanding of the Bible and church doctrine (2 Timothy 2:15)

– give their hearts to us as long as they are living in our home (Proverbs 23:26)

– be debt free even for cars and houses (Proverbs 22:7, Romans 13:8)

That's a heck of a lot of expectation he put on his children. And several were adults living at home at the time?

I wonder what "give their hearts to us as long as they are living in our home" meant in practice? And if Sarah in the end saw she just couldn't do that AND look for her husband on a dating site? 

Edited December 17, 2022 by ClareDeLune

[fundiewatch]

I am SO glad the girls ran out of contentment! 🫶🫶

I am a mental health therapist/social worker by trade so I KNOW people change their beliefs in spectacular ways. It’s always amazing to see. 

[hoipolloi]

6 hours ago, kpmom said:

it would be tempting to say maybe Steve lightened up in his old age and changed some of the rules, but looking at his Seriously Steve posts, there ain’t no lightening up there.

I agree. Actually, Steve is a lot of things but I don't think he's one of those "do as we say and not as we do" fundies. 

He's probably permanently angry over the way his children have broken his stupid rules but I doubt he expected that to happen or intended to overlook it. Now heʻs in a bind. He can either love his rules & rule-bound life or his family. Not both.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’m betting Kory didn’t buy that house debt free. 

[ClareDeLune]

25 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

I agree. Actually, Steve is a lot of things but I don't think he's one of those "do as we say and not as we do" fundies. 

He's probably permanently angry over the way his children have broken his stupid rules but I doubt he expected that to happen or intended to overlook it. Now heʻs in a bind. He can either love his rules & rule-bound life or his family. Not both.

While I was browsing earlier, I came upon this blog post which describes how they ask grandparents to accept and support their vision. https://articles.titus2.com/a-follow-up-to-the-deception-series/   So the very grown up 'children' have a blueprint for times that they need to tell Steve and Terri to butt out of their own lives.

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If the grandparents are resistant, then the parent can plead with the grandparents for support. “Dad and Mom, you were allowed to raise us as you felt right. Will you not give us the same freedom? We love you and would be so grateful if you could do this.” Always gentle, loving dialog conveying respect is how we are to interact, but without compromise.

 

It's incredible how they kept them all under the thumb for decades of adult life though. This was 20 years ago: https://articles.titus2.com/what-about-young-adult-children/   It looks very much as though they kind of did 'require' the adult children to obey them, but by talking them round and expecting compliance in exchange for a place to live, instead of using more childish punishments.

 

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We haven’t had to require our adult children to obey us. When issues come up, they will ask our counsel. We then discuss the situation, pray about it, discuss it some more, and almost always come to a decision in agreement. If a child has asked to do something we believe to be unwise, through our talking and praying time, they have come to an understanding of why we think that to be so, and also an agreement with it. Occasionally they don’t agree, but they have respected our judgments and accepted them simply because they respect their parents—again a sign of spiritual maturity. The children have been receptive to our counsel.

 

It really tickles me that the boys were the ones brought up to lead their families and have all the authority but, in the end, it was the girls who moved furthest away and lived lives more their own way.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

This week's Seriously, Dad? is called "It Is So Good" and it is from December 21, 2022. It is indeed part 5 of the "Under the Influence" series. 

First Paragraph: 

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We ended our last Seriously with the question: Does that mean we really can’t enjoy life? That question was based on Satan’s enticement to us that enjoyment in life is bound up with feeding/thrilling our flesh. I propose that the Christian’s best enjoyment of life will come through his relationship with Christ and serving Him, rather than doing entertaining, exciting, and fun things. Our relationship with Christ grows through edifying influences.

🤦‍♀️ 🙅‍♀️ 🤷‍♀️ At this point, I'm done with this series. I mean, I keep reading, but I'm not expecting anything good to come of it. I'm sure I don't have to point out to Free Jinger that Steve basically admitted that we should serve Christ, and that it will be boring, flat and dull. As he literally puts it  not doing "entertaining, exciting, and fun things."

Most churches regardless of denomination try to make things fun, Steve. Your daughter went to Africa on mission work to serve Jesus. I'm not a fan of most missionaries and I doubt I would approve of what she was doing, but it sounds exciting, and maybe even fun to me. I've never been to Africa.

Second Paragraph:

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1 Thessalonians 5:12 tells us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”According to the Olive Tree Enhanced Strong’s Dictionary “Prove” means: to test, examine, and scrutinize to see whether a thing is genuine or not, and deemed as worthy. “Good” means: excellent in its nature and characteristics, and genuine, therefore well adapted to its ends. These are great benchmarks for the influences we should want in our lives.

Oh, great! A special biblical dictionary. Both of those definitions seem pretty standard to me. Those are basic words most people know what they mean. Why the definitions?

I'm also in favor of things that prove to be good like vaccines. Some of your friends like the Bontragers are anti-vax. Explain the "proves good" thing to them.

Third Paragraph:

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The foundational good influence in our lives will be the Word. Do you have daily time set aside to read and meditate on your Bible and pray? Are you leading your family in a nourishing time in the Word each day? Are you listening to Scripture, sermons, and doctrinally sound Christian books when you are commuting or at other times you are alone? 

We neither read nor eat the Bible, despite how "nourishing" it is. Some people have jobs and little kids that make it hard for people of faith to read the bible every day. Some people don't want to read the bible. It's a choice to read it and you can be a good person without it.

Fourth Paragraph:

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What about spending time with people who are good influences – ones who demonstrate the good influences we are talking about? 

Demonstrate what? Reading the bible? I know let's read the bible for 30 minutes then spend the next hour watching the game, or the new sitcom or drama, or listen to secular music. In this column, you haven't demonstrated what a good influence is. 
Continuing: 

Quote

 Frankly, this one is extremely difficult, and just because they go to your church, don’t automatically assume they will be good for you to spend time with. 

That is one run-on sentence for someone who thinks he writes well and is sending this to other people. I agree you shouldn't trust people who go to your church, just because they go to your church.  Look how many churches have sex abuse scandals. And people who go to Steve's church, probably don't trust Steve. 

Fifth Paragraph:

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When a Christian’s mind is set on things above, he enjoys life on earth. Let’s look at a few more good influences next week. 

Being involved in earthly things can also make someone happy. You vote in elections, Steve.  You have cars, earpods, clothes, etc.

I wish this series was over. Enough already. Everyone understands the message. If they're listening, it's because they're not going to.  

I recently saw a quote that I think was from a man named David Huskins. David Huskins said:

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If God didn't send Jesus into the world to condemn it, I doubt he sent you.

Think about that, Steve. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Bluebirdbluebell]

This week's Seriously, Dad? is called "Soul Healthy" and is from December 28, 2022. 

First Paragraph: 

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Last week we noted how being in the Word every day is a foundational influence for us to have the right mindset of “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:12).

Yes, this is part 6 of the "Under the Influence" series. 🙄

Quote

As we fill our hearts and minds with the good things from above (Col. 3:1-2), we can have joy and peace that the lost/world doesn’t know.

And they have things that bring joy and peace that Steve doesn't know. Also Steve seems neither overjoyed or peaceful. 

Quote

However, understand that the good spiritual influences are not the same as the dopamine and adrenaline-jazzed thrills the world offers and to which the flesh easily becomes addicted. 

Yes, you can either love God or become an adrenaline-junkie! A lot of atheists don't constantly seek out thrills. And a lot of fundies do things like skydive and drive ATVs, etc.

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You have to decide in advance if your life will be filled with influences pleasing to the Lord or the flesh. (Hint: the more we are in the Word and love it, the less we will want the cheap thrills of this life.)

Yeah, yeah we've heard it before! 

Second Paragraph:

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Nutritious food does not provide the tastebud-exploding sensation that foods like ice cream and Doritos do, but it produces a healthy body. 

Somehow I'm surprised Steve knows what Doritos are. I also am tickled that Steve compares the world to junk food. A few columns ago he compared worldly influences to Satan. Now the world is mere junk food. That's quite a comedown.

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In a similar way, spiritual influences don’t excite the flesh, but they do nourish the soul. 

Lots of things nourish the soul. If you believe your religion is the only thing that nourishes anyone's soul,  you're wrong and bigoted. 

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There is a choice each of us must make. Will we be slaves to pleasing our flesh or desirous of the joy that comes from pleasing our Lord?

There is also more ways to please the Lord than just spending all your time focused on God.  

Third Paragraph:

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“Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof” (Romans 13:13-14).

Most people don't spend their time being wanton and drunk; they spend their days working. In order for them to put a roof overhead, food on the table, clothes on their backs, etc. They don't have a choice. You were lucky to afford a comfortable home and not have to go to work everyday. You were able to help your sons purchase nice debt-free homes. Most people are lucky if they can work and afford a home like yours. 

Fourth Paragraph:

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Oh my brothers, may we make no opportunity for the flesh. 

Yes, never try anything that could be exciting or interesting. I admit I've never tried hard drugs on that principle, but there is more to life than just religion. 

Good news! No "To Be Continued..." Next week write a column about children and being a father. You didn't even mention kids in this one.

[feministxtian]

Good God man....take the stick out of your ass!

[Black Aliss]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:19 PM, lunaselene503 said:

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope it didn't seem like I was saying people can't change beliefs. It definitely happens. I just have never seen it in person.

This bears a remarkable resemblance to those people who insist the 2020 election was rigged because they don't know anyone who voted for Biden.

[Jana814]

3 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

This bears a remarkable resemblance to those people who insist the 2020 election was rigged because they don't know anyone who voted for Biden.

I hate people who believe this. Unfortunately I know a few people who believe this. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

This week's Seriously, Dad? is called Steadfast and is from January 4, 2023.  While it has many familiar themes, it's not a continuation of the last columns.

First Paragraph: 

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Does anyone come to mind that you admire but you consider wishy-washy and like a leaf blown by the wind of each influence? 

I think it would be more readable if you had phrased this differently.  Here's how I would reword your question:

"Do you admire anyone you consider wishy-washy and blown like a leaf by the wind of each influence?" 

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Likely not. The people we generally admire are steadfast in life, character, and disciplines.

Yes, I also admire people who are kind, flexible and can admit they were wrong when it's appropriate.

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They know who they are, and how to maintain it (and what to avoid), and have a forward direction consistent with their goals.

Maintain what? "It" is supposed to refer to a noun previously used and it's unclear what "it" refers to.

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I’m convinced that doesn’t just happen but is purposeful. 

This reads like a lot of self-help. Heck it reminds of the coffee-table advice book written by Ru Paul. Ru says

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"Know who you are and be able to deliver that at all times." 

Second Paragraph:

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Aren’t we glad that our God is steadfast (unchanging)?

Yes, God has been described "unchanging" before. It's also comforting in world filled with change to have something that doesn't change. 

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Notice as God describes Himself to Moses, this is Who He is, not Who He is most, or some, of the time. “The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation” (Ex 34:6–7). God is immutable and does not change over time. He is unchangeable. 

This isn't entirely true however. God does change throughout the bible. For example, He destroys the earth in the flood and then sends the rainbow as a promise to never do that again. He becomes kinder and gentler in the most of the book.

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 I believe that is a reason we admire others who don’t change. 

What is a reason? That we are like God. I actually think God did/maybe does change. If God doesn't change, it's because He's perfect. "To err is human..." As human beings, we are capable of making mistakes. Steve spends a lot of time pointing out what he consider flaws in others. He wants to others to change. He admires people who give up things he doesn't like. Who make changes he likes.

Most people admire others who are capable of growth.

Third Paragraph: 

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May we each consider our life over this next week.

Most people do at the start of a new year.

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How steadfast are we? How steadfast are we in Christ?

Change can be good. You can be steadfastly loyal and still evolve as person.

The only good about this column was it wasn't a continuation of the series before this week.   One of the points of Christianity is change. Jesus Christ called people to change during his ministry and life on earth. It's also not well-written and not about Fatherhood. Next week write something about parenting!

[Black Aliss]

On 12/17/2022 at 1:18 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m betting Kory didn’t buy that house debt free. 

I'm further betting he never asked Steve's permission to marry Sarah.