Josh and Anna 54: He's Listed in the BoP Database

[neuroticcat]

Michelle was the one who cared about the pants publicly. BUT kind of like JB always said: “It’s up to Michelle” about having another kid.” Or that they said the no pants was the girls’ conviction. All of them have chosen for years to live by whatever Gothard or some spiritual authority says.
 

My guess is the official IBLP teaching now endorses feminine modest pants or some such thing or more likely has walked it back: we never said…it was always up to the people.🙄 If nothing else many other women in their crowd wear pants so it is permissible in a new way, maybe even for spiritualized ministry reasons like teaching more people on socials. 

I also wonder how, as American society has become more gender fluid in external dress, the fundie gender-statements might change. 

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Ex fertility nurse here, unless Anna freezes her eggs her chance of success with IVF at 44/45 is incredibly low. She'd be better off trying to conceive naturally. Most women falling pregnant that age using IVF either have embryos frozen from a few years back or using donor eggs. In the less then 12 (horrible) months I worked in an IVF clinic we didn't have one women get pregnant with her own eggs at 44 or older. We did have one women at 44 fall pregnant naturally before her cycle began though. Then in my 5+ years as a community baby nurse I saw less than 5 women aged 43 or older having a baby. I was in a very wealthy area of Sydney and we started to see lots of donor eggs  , two women had twins at 50 (eggs from Greece) a few weeks apart! 

[AussieKrissy]

30 minutes ago, Milly-Molly-Mandy said:

Ex fertility nurse here, unless Anna freezes her eggs her chance of success with IVF at 44/45 is incredibly low. She'd be better off trying to conceive naturally. Most women falling pregnant that age using IVF either have embryos frozen from a few years back or using donor eggs. In the less then 12 (horrible) months I worked in an IVF clinic we didn't have one women get pregnant with her own eggs at 44 or older. We did have one women at 44 fall pregnant naturally before her cycle began though. Then in my 5+ years as a community baby nurse I saw less than 5 women aged 43 or older having a baby. I was in a very wealthy area of Sydney and we started to see lots of donor eggs  , two women had twins at 50 (eggs from Greece) a few weeks apart! 

Curious, why was it horrible? the job? the staff? the clients? 

When I was sitting in waiting for my last IUI I was listening to the receptionist talking to her client about donor eggs from the states at like 10k plus from the states, I was also at a Sydney clinic (though I travelled out of area to use that one). I was blown away by all the expenses donor eggs incurred. (I did not overhear anything that would breach confidentiality) it was all numbers and stuff. I found it fascinating and then wondered how much of all those cost were the mark up profits from all the stakeholders

My friends brother and his wife actually flew from Australia to Greece twice  to have their donor egg babies as it was cheaper than having it in Australia 

Perhaps Australia's mark up is more expensive because it has to pass more laws (like the donor parents must agree to their info being released when the offspring hits 18)

Any way long ramble short I find the whole business interesting possibly as I have lived it and have a donor conceived child myself (sperm not egg). 

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

@AussieKrissy it was all so stressful. I was young (25?) & was working with highly stressed clients, I missed the wards and the relationships with my colleagues (very much working alone in the IVF clinic), it paid poorly as no shift work penalty rates so I started working nights on weekends as an agency nurse to save for a home deposit. It was a terrible fit for me. 

[quiversR4hunting]

2 hours ago, Milly-Molly-Mandy said:

I worked in an IVF clinic we didn't have one women get pregnant with her own eggs at 44 or older. We did have one women at 44 fall pregnant naturally before her cycle began though. Then in my 5+ years as a community baby nurse I saw less than 5 women aged 43 or older having a baby. I was in a very wealthy area of Sydney and we started to see lots of donor eggs  , two women had twins at 50 (eggs from Greece) a few weeks apart!

And how old is Jill Rod? Oh you just gave me hope she might not have another kid. Rufus please let it be!

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

21 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

And how old is Jill Rod? Oh you just gave me hope she might not have another kid. Rufus please let it be!

Very unlikely, I think her husbands obesity would definitely be impacting on fertility as well. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

58 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

And how old is Jill Rod? Oh you just gave me hope she might not have another kid. Rufus please let it be!

I don't why anyone thinks Jill would have another baby. She is 43 currently. 

She'll have plenty of grandchildren.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I don't why anyone thinks Jill would have another baby. She is 43 currently. 

Michelle "caught a baby" when she was 44/45. Not that many have Michelle's baby catching abilities.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Michelle "caught a baby" when she was 44/45. Not that many have Michelle's baby catching abilities.

Michelle was 43 when Josie was born.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

6 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Michelle was 43 when Josie was born.

She became pregnant with Jubilee right before she turned 45 in 2011.

[metheglyn]

14 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Michelle was 43 when Josie was born.

She had Josie very early (6 months) in December of 2009. Then she got pregnant in the late summer/early fall of 2011 with Jubilee, with a miscarriage at 20 weeks, which was announced on December 8, two days shy of Jose's second birthday. So she'd have been 45 then if she was 43 when Josie was born.

3 minutes ago, metheglyn said:

She had Josie very early (6 months) in December of 2009. Then she got pregnant in the late summer/early fall of 2011 with Jubilee, with a miscarriage at 20 weeks, which was announced on December 8, two days shy of Jose's second birthday. So she'd have been 45 then if she was 43 when Josie was born.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by metheglyn
Can't remove my accidental self quote on my tablet!

[Bluebirdbluebell]

27 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

She became pregnant with Jubilee right before she turned 45 in 2011.

And it didn't work out, which is likely at that age. There are other examples of women having babies at that age, but it's very rare.

In Jill's case, she hasn't been pregnant in 4 years. She's older and her husband is older. Both of them may have health issues which affect fertility. She's had one kid in over 6 years. 

I think people like to think about Jill having more kids in the same way people like to think about Anna doing some kind of IVF with Josh while he's in prison. It's not likely to happen and it's almost fan fiction.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Jackie3]

7 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I think people like to think about Jill having more kids in the same way people like to think about Anna doing some kind of IVF with Josh while he's in prison. It's not likely to happen and it's almost fan fiction.

I know, but why? Why would it be good for the Ms to have their mother busy with another newborn? I just don't understand why anyone would hope for this (very unlikely) scenario to take place.

[AussieKrissy]

13 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I know, but why? Why would it be good for the Ms to have their mother busy with another newborn? I just don't understand why anyone would hope for this (very unlikely) scenario to take place.

not fan fiction in a positive way fan fiction in a car wreck observation way....

[formergothardite]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Anna is still clinging to the hope he will win his appeal and be home soon and so she hasn’t even started accepting that he is going away for a long time. How long do appeals take?

[quiversR4hunting]

5 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I think people like to think about Jill having more kids in the same way people like to think about Anna doing some kind of IVF with Josh while he's in prison. It's not likely to happen and it's almost fan fiction.

Jill Rod has luck to get almost everything she wants. (House, RV, vacation rental home, replacement car, etc.) So her wishing to be pregnant again is another thing she wants but we all hope she doesn't. 

@Milly-Molly-Mandy (The original post that I responded to) worked in fertility world, she explained the odds of getting pregnant.  Until Jill goes through full menopause there is always a chance but it's good to read the odds are very, very low. 

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if Anna is still clinging to the hope he will win his appeal and be home soon and so she hasn’t even started accepting that he is going away for a long time. How long do appeals take?

 Depends on how full the appeals docket is on how long before they get a court date. Can take a few months to a couple years. It isn't quick. Here is the process.  https://federalcriminallawcenter.com/frequently-asked-questions/how-long-do-federal-appeals-take/

[Hazelbunny]

Could all this talk about Anna, Jill and Zoo having more kids be more worry that they might rather than hope that they do? 

[quiversR4hunting]

22 minutes ago, Hazelbunny said:

Could all this talk about Anna, Jill and Zoo having more kids be more worry that they might rather than hope that they do? 

Yes, I agree.i remember after Nicole Nugler had her last one, we all were worried about her having another one. 1. It is horrible on her mental health. 2. she almost died. 

I hope all these mega moms can't have more babies. We don't need a generation that is more indoctrinated than the parents and many have less education.  

I hope we are watching the demise of the big influential fundie movements. 

[AprilQuilt]

17 hours ago, Three Legs Good said:

I have a theory about why the bible forbids crossdressing.  The Old Testament talks a lot about being "unclean", and women were "unclean" much of the time.  Men mostly got tainted by contact with women or with items a woman had contaminated.  Obviously, a man donning a woman's clothes is immediately "unclean", and the mere thought that a woman might have tried on his clothes when he wasn't around would probably be horrifying.  While used clothing was sold, most garments were made for a specific person - a woman wouldn't be wearing clothing intended men in general, but a specific man's clothing.  There must have been at least one woman who made her abusive husband's clothing "unclean", in the hope that the vengeful OT god would kill him when the husband went to the temple in an impure state.

The 'unclean' thing is interesting - I haven't read Purity and Danger by Mary Douglas since my anthropology degree but her famous takeaway was 'dirt is matter out of place', ie nothing is itself 'dirty', but when it is out of the space it ought to occupy, has escaped from its category, then it is regarded as dirt. She has a chapter in it on Leviticus and I think concludes that many of the foods forbidden in it are ones that are not easily categorised as one thing or another, eg a pig is an anomalous creature by the categorisation of the period as it has hooves and yet is omnivorous. Therefore, since it can't be easily classified, it is dangerously unquantifiable - not to be touched, unclean.

I assume the same could be said of men or women who adopted garments that were associated with the opposite sex - this would make them anomalous, unclassifiable, and therefore impure/unclean. It's this lack of order that then becomes regarded as a spiritual threat.

[gustava]

19 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

What if I were cold and my husband gave me his coat to wear? Is that an abomination to the Lord? 

It's straight to the hot place for you!

[Sullie06]

On 6/8/2022 at 9:28 AM, gustava said:

What would be an M name for a turkey baster baby? 

Misery

[AprilQuilt]

Musing on other stuff in this thread, I think that even if JB is horrible to Anna, she is too deep in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) to not see that as in some way her own fault. I imagine she'd put her efforts into pleasing and mollifying him rather than sticking up for herself. She'd assume she deserved it. 

It's hard enough to break out of an abusive relationship with one person, but Anna is in an abusive/coercive relationship with her entire community. That's how this cult works. Jill was lucky she had a headship who was willing to let her confront the damage and betrayal her family have done to her: I think she's cleverer than Anna (I think all the Duggar girls are cannier than the Kellers), but without permission and support from Derick she'd really have struggled to conceptualise and accept how not-right things were. I don't think anyone Anna trusts is guiding her towards that realisation. She may have siblings who'd like to but I don't think she wants to listen to them - she wants acceptance from the Duggars. She'll be frightened and desperate to make things right, to be accepted back in the fold. And that's likely exactly the behaviour JB intends to provoke.

In short: I don't think her jeans are an act of rebellion. She is a follower and in the norms of her circle, pants wearing is mainly OK now. Even Jana does it. In a crisis situation like this you can go two ways: the scales can fall from your eyes and you can reassess (seems like Jason and Joy are in this process, at least to some extent), or you can double down to what feels safe and familiar, and cling to what is being threatened. That's Anna. I don't think she's going anywhere.

[Idlewild]

The talk upthread about David Waller - it wouldn’t surprise me if JB was resentful about him , JB seems very petty. I can actually see Waller slithering into politics at some point too, and probably more successfully than JB and Jed.

[nokidsmom]

16 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Man how much in denial would you need to be to think your husband would be let off  after being found guilty, and sitting in prison for 6 months? Josh hasn’t been free or living at home for 14 months, could Anna still be thinking he’s innocent or coming home soon? Does she not realize that innocent, privileged, white, heterosexual Christian men rarely sit for months in jail in the US? 

@SassyPants IMHO I think Anna is in deep, deep denial and has been ever since Joshley went to Jesus Jail.   I remember her interview post-AM / molestations and she said something along the lines of "going back to the way things were before".   Of course, I can't read her mind but that statement suggested to me that she was in deep denial then.   She carried on as normal such as having more kids with Josh, a known molester and cheater; she actually was willing to bring more children into such a messed-up situation.   Her very obvious anger when exiting the courthouse after his conviction and her "there's more to the story" tweet after the legal motion to overturn, tells me that yes, she is desperately hanging to the idea that Josh is innocent despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary.  

Edited June 9, 2022 by nokidsmom
corrected misspelling

[Idlewild]

@nokidsmom I agree. Anna has perfected denial into an art form. Despite Josh trashing everything- the show, the DC job, her dignity, she carried on- curating her social media image of ‘little Duggars’, trying to get paid partnerships, trying to get her and her kids back on TV and she actually seemed to enjoy the ‘strong Christian wife’ praise the humpers heaped on her.

Now even the most rabid supporters are having second thoughts - especially seeing the effect he has had on sisters he abused and by digging her heels in Anna is looking at best delusional, at worst complicit.