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[Cam]

One of my sisters is a Mary, which is a lovely name and not nearly as common as it used to be. We have a Polish maiden name which said a certain way almost sounds like “Christmas”, so family members greet each other at the holidays by saying her name in place of “Merry Christmas!” Obviously, no difference in pronouncing merry and Mary.

To signal my general whereabouts, all I might have to do is give yinz a one-word clue…….

[AprilQuilt]

15 hours ago, Irishy said:

Often an Irish name will be pronounced differently in different parts of the island which is even more confusing. Saoirse Ronan is from the east and she’s leaning towards Seer Shah. In the north it would be more like Sur Shah. Máire is the Irish for Mary and it would be pronounced Moira in the south, east and west and Moya in the north. 
 

But I love that as an English speaking country (through colonisation), we have revived and retain our culture somewhat through names. Irish names are still really popular.

I think this bit is so important. And I would argue that a huge reason that people struggle with Irish names is the fact that the Irish language was purposefully suppressed for a long time, in a way that French or German or Norwegian never has been. It doesn't 'travel' so well because it's never been the language of colonisers, nobody has ever been obliged to learn it - in fact they've been forced not to.

It's wonderful that Irish people today are able to give their children Irish names - it's kind of a problem in general to say "no, those names are too obscure to expect anyone to bother learning", but obscurity begets obscurity, and taking that attitude further removes permission for this language (and culture, and people) to exist and take up space. I don't think many people here would take such an attitude towards other traditional or indigenous naming practices - they would understand the drive to preserve or revive them.

[Mama Mia]

11 hours ago, nvmbr02 said:

I know two girls named this but spelled Kaleesi. One is 5, the other 12.  Not a name I would choose, but there are worse names. 

It’s not the name itself, which I like very much — it’s how the character it’s based on ended up.  It’s from Game of Thrones. 

[Meggo]

20 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

If you (general you) name your kid using the Irish alphabet in the US you’re giving them a name that’s only spelled how it sounds in a language that virtually no one that child encounters will ever learn. It’s totally your freedom to do that, but then you can’t really expect people to think it sounds like it’s spelled. And having a name that’s constantly mispronounced because it’s in an alphabet no one knows can be othering and a hardship. If you view that hardship as worth it in the face of preserving culture though, that’s up to you. And historically, I understand why the Irish may not give a fuck if their names are pronounceable in English. 

This is an excellent point. While I would have loved to name my child Aoife because it is such a beautiful sounding name - I didn't have a strong enough (in my mind) connection to it - to saddle my kiddo with a name NO ONE she would encounter, would know how to pronounce. I lived in Ireland for 10 months - had I lived there longer, had I married someone from there, had I lived there myself as an adult (not just a college student) - I might have felt differently about giving my child a name that would be difficult to pronounce properly outside of Ireland. But - I didn't. It wasn't ENOUGH of my culture for me to fight for it. 
I have a name no one spells correctly. It has two or three common spellings and mine isn't the most common. So I get that. That other-ness. I just didn't feel strongly enough about the name to fight for it. 

(also - I had a boy... so that would have been extra weird) 

[SassyPants]

My opinions on names and the difficulties associated has nothing to do with the discomfort of those who are addressing/pronouncing/spelling the name, but rather with the ease of life for the person who actually has the name. I guess if you have a very recognizable and easy to spell and pronounce name, the realities might seem trivial, but since I’ve lived this my entire life, I just would never have inflicted the same on my child. Children want to fit in and adults are often time pressed. No adult wants to spend extra time repeating, respelling, telling the helper to look for an ‘ between the first 2 letters, capitalize the second letter too. I’m cruising toward 70 and it’s just exhausting, and absent a name change, is a for life thing.

Edited January 27 by SassyPants

[viii]

My last name contains two capitals and I can't say that it's really exhausted me throughout my life telling people how to spell my name. Unless your name is Jane Smith, you're likely going to be spelling your name for people. 

[AnywhereButHere]

I remember seeing an interview done by the comedian Hasan Minhaj where he was talking about how people mispronounced his name. People were generally emphasizing the wrong syllables in both his first and last name. I actually hadn't known of him before that interview, but I would've pronounced it incorrectly as well before that. I've done the same with the last name of a Greek friend. Before they mentioned it, I was completely saying their name incorrectly. With Irish names, once I hear how the name is said - I'm good with the pronunciation going forward. In all of these cases though, the sounds are ones I can make - if that makes any sense... There are names I will never be able to pronounce correctly as I just can't make those sounds. Can't roll my Rs to save my life, and there's that back of the throat "gh" sound  I also can't do. I love salt, but I joke with my Armenian husband that if we ever go over there, I'll never be able to get salt with my meal. The word is just one big vocal nope for me. I'd basically sound like a lackadaisical pirate. 

As far as regional; accents go - I had a close friend of the family, called her "Aunt", stayed with her for weeks when my parents went on vacation. I was 28 and sending out wedding invitations before I ever saw her name in writing, and I legit asked my mom who this was that I was inviting. Her name was Arpi. I'm from Boston. If you know - you know... 😂

[OHFL2009]

1 hour ago, viii said:

My last name contains two capitals and I can't say that it's really exhausted me throughout my life telling people how to spell my name. Unless your name is Jane Smith, you're likely going to be spelling your name for people. 

My last name is in the top 25 most common in the US, there's really only one way to spell it, and I still get asked on a regular basis to spell it. 

Edited January 27 by OHFL2009

[AnywhereButHere]

1 hour ago, viii said:

My last name contains two capitals and I can't say that it's really exhausted me throughout my life telling people how to spell my name. Unless your name is Jane Smith, you're likely going to be spelling your name for people. 

Both maiden and married name I've always led with "I'll spell it for you" and even then... 🤦‍♀️ 😄

[lumpentheologie]

I mean besides the free healthcare one of the biggest benefits of immigrating from the US to Germany has been finally not having to spell my (German) last name. 😅

[MathQueen]

My name was very common in the fifties, and although it’s not commonly given today, there are still a lot of people with my very simple to spell name around. But for some reason now my name is misspelled and mispronounced by younger people fairly often. An example of this is the difference between the names Mary and Marie. My name is like the name Mary, but if I go for a coffee, the barista will write and pronounce it Marie. Often, and in many locations. I am baffled by this. 

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, viii said:

My last name contains two capitals and I can't say that it's really exhausted me throughout my life telling people how to spell my name. Unless your name is Jane Smith, you're likely going to be spelling your name for people. 

Unless you are a terrible speller, there are plenty of names with commonly-known spellings. Emily, Mary, Bobby, Tom. . . many many names.

Either way, you are far more likely to be asked to spell "Sideræl" than you are "Jim."

[SassyPants]

My son recently got a new job and his employer was having a hard time getting my son into their computer systems. This issue went all the way up the chain to the head of IT. Finally they realized the problem was the apostrophe in my son’s last name. Many programs have now dropped the apostrophe in names all together, so in a way that has changed our last name.

My favorite memory on our name was when our niece announced at her wedding that she was so excited to change her name and drop the dreaded apostrophe.

[Keys]

I live in North America and have an Irish last name that has an apostrophe in it (think O’Hara, O’Shaughnessy, etc). And let me tell you, it is VERY annoying when you’re typing your last name in somewhere online or submit it for something (plenty of government stuff too), and you get a ton of error messages because you can’t enter a “character” - ie the apostrophe. I mean, this is my name. There are many people who have “characters” in their last names, French accents, etc. It’s annoying. 

[KWLand]

Dhs name is a common name with two basic spellings (not his name but think Mark/Marc).  My brothers name is the same name, but spelled differently. They both have had to spell their name their entire lives and even relatives still misspell them.   We received engraved wedding gifts with his name misspelled.
 

So even common names have to be spelled.  Maybe even more so because my uncommon name is rarely misspelled and I’m rarely asked how to spell my name.  Which is funny since I don’t pronounce the first syllable the way it is spelled, it’s just an name that doesn’t have multiple regular spellings so people assume and are right. 

[Travelfan]

9 hours ago, MathQueen said:

My name was very common in the fifties, and although it’s not commonly given today, there are still a lot of people with my very simple to spell name around. But for some reason now my name is misspelled and mispronounced by younger people fairly often. An example of this is the difference between the names Mary and Marie. My name is like the name Mary, but if I go for a coffee, the barista will write and pronounce it Marie. Often, and in many locations. I am baffled by this. 

I know a couple of older people named Zoe and Chloe. Their names do not have the ee sound at the end. They both rhyme with toe.  Once all the new Zoe’s and Chloe’s started being popular a few years back now everyone just assumes the “new” pronunciation for them.  

[Bluebirdbluebell]

5 hours ago, Keys said:

I live in North America and have an Irish last name that has an apostrophe in it (think O’Hara, O’Shaughnessy, etc). And let me tell you, it is VERY annoying when you’re typing your last name in somewhere online or submit it for something (plenty of government stuff too), and you get a ton of error messages because you can’t enter a “character” - ie the apostrophe. I mean, this is my name. There are many people who have “characters” in their last names, French accents, etc. It’s annoying. 

An Irish American friend of mine gets pissed when they drop the apostrophe. She says it's ethnic discrimination.

[medimus]

5 hours ago, Keys said:

I live in North America and have an Irish last name that has an apostrophe in it (think O’Hara, O’Shaughnessy, etc). And let me tell you, it is VERY annoying when you’re typing your last name in somewhere online or submit it for something (plenty of government stuff too), and you get a ton of error messages because you can’t enter a “character” - ie the apostrophe. I mean, this is my name. There are many people who have “characters” in their last names, French accents, etc. It’s annoying. 

 

36 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

An Irish American friend of mine gets pissed when they drop the apostrophe. She says it's ethnic discrimination.

That drives me nuts too (not for me, I don't have the problem, but my partner does). It's laziness on the part of whoever is running the site, other sites manage it no problem. 

Interestingly the apostrophe is not originally Irish, it's an aglicisation, the Os should have an accent on them called a fada like this Ó. Dara Ó Briain went from using an apostraphe back to the fada a few years ago, here's a funny clip all about it (in Irish and subtitled).

And this podcast is an interesting take on trying to get governments to accept diacritics in names (funny as well) https://headstuff.org/motherfocloir/129-quarantine-sessions-7-una-vs-the-kingdom-of-belgium/

 

[Cam]

My stepson’s wife is Caryn. Ten years ago, I worked with a married classmate of my stepson, Caryn B. Both Caryns were pregnant with their first baby. Caryn B.’s sister sent me a baby shower invitation. When my husband saw and read it, he started asking a bunch of questions. He was acquainted with Caryn B. but it was odd for him to show such interest in her.
 

He asked, “So Caryn’s having a boy?”
“Yes!” I said cheerfully. “They’re naming him Hank!” My husband did not seem happy. He asked a few more questions.
Finally it dawned on me. I said, “Wait, do you think this is your daughter-in-law Caryn’s shower invitation?”   Bingo!
I said, “This is for Caryn B. who I work with!” And do you know that stinker did not believe I knew what I was talking about! He said, “You mean she spells her name with a “C” too?” I said, “Yes, dear! That’s how that generation spells Karen!!!”

Turns out my husband thought his first grandchild was going to be a boy named Hank and that nobody bothered to tell him! It took him a few minutes to grasp the truth.

And anyway, as it turns out, we were graced with a beautiful granddaughter. 

[monkeyrocks71]

On 1/25/2023 at 1:05 PM, AprilQuilt said:

I really disagree with this. If someone is from X place or culture, why should they not name their children from that place or culture?  <snip>

I understand that these things look complicated when you're totally new to them but learning how to pronounce a name even when it seems daunting is a mark of respect and one we'd probably all want to have extended to ourselves. Nobody's name is too complicated to learn to pronounce properly: it's their first identity and it's part of acknowledging them as a whole human, not the version of them that is most convenient to us. None of us know where we're going to end up so trying to pre-empt acceptance through naming is not necessarily going to work.

This.  I work in a school with a high proportion of immigrants or children of immigrants.  I always ask how to pronounce names, and double check.  I don't want to be creating micro-aggresions.

That being said, there are absolutely sounds that are unpronouncable to people who have not grown up speaking that language.  I took Croatian (I am not Croatian), and, despite having studied a few languages, I  literally cannot hear (let alone pronounce)  the difference between č, and ć, even though my professor insisted there is a difference.

I was also an exchange student in Spain, with a name with two sounds that are not present in Spanish (think "Catherine").  I accepted anything near to my name lol

But, one should always try to get as close as possible.  

 

 

Edited January 28 by monkeyrocks71

[4boysmum]

13 hours ago, monkeyrocks71 said:

This.  I work in a school with a high proportion of immigrants or children of immigrants.  I always ask how to pronounce names, and double check.  I don't want to be creating micro-aggresions.

That being said, there are absolutely sounds that are unpronouncable to people who have not grown up speaking that language.  I took Croatian (I am not Croatian), and, despite having studied a few languages, I  literally cannot hear (let alone pronounce)  the difference between č, and ć, even though my professor insisted there is a difference.

I was also an exchange student in Spain, with a name with two sounds that are not present in Spanish (think "Catherine").  I accepted anything near to my name lol

But, one should always try to get as close as possible.  

 

 

Exactly.  I don't think having an unusual name really caused me *that* much hardship.  It doesn't bother me that I have to spell it or tell people how to pronounce it.  I was only bothered when (a) people refused to try and just used whatever they thought was the closest English equivalent or (b) made me (as a child who cared about pleasing her teachers in school) feel like I was burdening or inconveniencing them by having the name that I did.  I've been called Kara, Karen, Carol, Carolyn, Caroline, and Carolina.  All perfectly fine names.  None of them, however, are my name.  Most of those contain letters that are not even in my name.

When I started working as a teacher you'd better believe that I took the time to ask students how to pronounce their names and always made my best effort to get it right.  It just felt like basic courtesy, but I definitely had (often older) colleagues who would grumble about parents "making up" names for their kids and not realizing they were just names from other languages and cultures.

I also think things are different now than when I was a kid (I'm 40).  Growing up, I was often the only kid in my class, or even grade, with a parent who came from another country.  That is definitely not the case in my hometown any longer.  And people seem more comfortable with cultural diversity.  People may not be able to pronounce "Saoirse" on the first try, but they will go on to tell my daughter she has a beautiful name and ask me about where it comes from and what it means.

And to the person upthread who addressed the issue of English suppression of the Irish language... well, yes, there is certainly a reason my Irish husband wanted to name his daughter for "freedom!"

[IrishCarrie]

As a proud Irish woman can I thank you all for your sensitivity in discussing this topic? 😘 😘😘 

We were colonised and brutalised for 800 years, with the aim of our oppressors being to UTTERLY eliminate our religion, culture and language. That they completely failed says a lot about the Irish spirit...and stubbornness 🤣

The Irish language is an ancient one and is stunningly beautiful; rich in imagery and meaning. Our names reflect that and I love that they're all over the world now, being used in all sorts of other cultural contexts.

Exactly as it should be; we're richer when we share the parts of us that are special! 

Thanks you, friends 😘

[ToriAmos]

On 1/28/2023 at 3:29 PM, Travelfan said:

I know a couple of older people named Zoe and Chloe. Their names do not have the ee sound at the end. They both rhyme with toe.  Once all the new Zoe’s and Chloe’s started being popular a few years back now everyone just assumes the “new” pronunciation for them.  

Wow. I have never heard those names pronounced that way (rhyming with toe). That messes with my mind a little. Was that the original pronunciation?

[SassyPants]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:33 PM, Keys said:

I live in North America and have an Irish last name that has an apostrophe in it (think O’Hara, O’Shaughnessy, etc). And let me tell you, it is VERY annoying when you’re typing your last name in somewhere online or submit it for something (plenty of government stuff too), and you get a ton of error messages because you can’t enter a “character” - ie the apostrophe. I mean, this is my name. There are many people who have “characters” in their last names, French accents, etc. It’s annoying. 

I do worry about official sites (think government, insurance…) that have dropped the apostrophe. It’s a completely different name. Another favorite when a package arrives addressed to Marie OapostropheMeara. Gotta love the bots.

10 minutes ago, ToriAmos said:

Wow. I have never heard those names pronounced that way (rhyming with toe). That messes with my mind a little. Was that the original pronunciation?

Clo is particularly harsh. 

[AprilQuilt]

1 hour ago, ToriAmos said:

Wow. I have never heard those names pronounced that way (rhyming with toe). That messes with my mind a little. Was that the original pronunciation?

No! They are Greek names/words where an -oë ending is quite normal. The two dots above the 'e' indicate diaeresis - ie you're meant to to pronounce the two vowels separately like 'oh-ee' rather than say the sound they would make put together, in this case 'oh'. It used to be more standard in written English to include the diaeresis over the vowel, but less so these days so I can understand why people might mispronounce names like that if they'd never heard them spoken.

Edited January 29 by AprilQuilt
edited for clarity!