(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Zebedee said:

The prosecution response to the defence's wish for 5 years is up. Safe to say, use extreme caution when reading it.
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.152.0.pdf

The TLDR version is that they are not budging. They are sticking with the enhancements for content citing precedents from other cases. Also, the number of images (precedents wrt whether he viewed or not is irrelevant) with a dig in to the defense's tech expert:  "As such, her opinions on the forensic evidence in this case have been proven demonstrably unreliable and should not be relied upon for any matter of consequence. Accordingly, Duggar’s objection is legally irrelevant and factually incorrect".

Pattern of activity enhancement: "Duggar also objects to the application of the pattern-of-activity enhancement, claiming that it is based on unreliable reporting from “a tabloid magazine” and that his counsel’s “[r]esearch has revealed no case law supporting application of this substantial enhancement to conduct that occurred when a defendant was … a juvenile.” . Duggar is wrong on both counts. The application of this enhancement is based on the unrebutted testimony of Bobye Holt, which was corroborated by the self-serving testimony of his own father." Also: "Duggar and his father previously claimed that he confessed his crimes to Mrs. Holt in her role as his spiritual advisor and a member of the clergy of his church. Without explanation, Duggar no longer appears to believe that Mrs. Holt was his spiritual advisor or a church elder, describing her testimony now as false and referring to her as simply “Holt.”"

Finally, wrt growing up on TV blah blah in the defence character letters, they have this to say: "Duggar also notes that he grew up “in front of television cameras,” and appears to suggest that his crimes are related to “the challenges associated with being a child whose everyday life is viewed by the public and, in certain instances, being criticized by the media and complete strangers.”" and "These claims only underscore the appropriateness of the Government’s sentencing recommendation. Indeed, his supportive family and public-facing and privileged lifestyle make his pattern of criminal conduct all the more baffling". They continue, that none of the letters show any recognition of the seriousness of the crime, or that he has any remorse especially calling out the letter from Timothy Burress and his weird conspiracy theories, ending with "In fact, given the apparent success of his blame tactics with some of the individuals he intends to surround himself with after his release from incarceration, it is not just unlikely—it is inconceivable." (referring to reoffending, bolding mine.)

They end with some blurb about his trying to say that using a computer makes it less bad.

Oh, and he won't be getting his computer back.

Thanks for posting this.  An article that covers this with some different details (possible trigger warning— brief description of Josh’s proclivities ) is Josh Duggar’s Pattern of Criminal Behavior.

For those who have been wondering whether the molestation was taken into account, it was indeed, since (as stated above) Bobbye Holt’s testimony supported the idea that Josh “escalated” his behavior before.

[neuroticcat]

I think Amy's message makes sense. I am going to believe her that she's probably tried many other routes and is genuinely worried about the children. She also has some kind of past relationship with Anna - whether that was a fake friendship for the cameras - or as real as fundie relationships can get - who knows? But I think there's a level of desperation with abuse response that finally leads lots of people to make public statements. They've tried every other route. At least it will be there publicly in the future and could be a help for the adult children. It also might help relieve the feelings of being complicit or someone like Amy may be worried that her many followers would view her silence as endorsing Anna staying. I imagine it's complicated. I also think Amy watching/supporting Jill to some degree as Jill was kind of shunned probably plays into it. Amy/Deanna have already broken ties with the Duggar circus, so she might as well go all in on whatever soapbox she wants.

I don't think there's anything anyone could say or do at this point to make Anna change her mind or make things worse or better. In many ways, it reminds me of how it's impossible to help an addict *until they are willing to seek help*. If Anna ever is, then it won't matter if Amy or anybody else said things exactly right or not. She could know that would be a safe person and likely would find support with them. It's loud and clear messaging if nothing else.

I think the M kids and younger Duggars now have the best chance of breaking free of the cult. The cult promise of perfect godly family life is now fragmented by estranged relationships and some level of encounter with "worldly" siblings like Jill or Cousin Amy who, if the younger children meet in real life or even encounter watching old episodes of the show, can eventually come to see as normal people. Even without critical thinking skills, these teens are going to become adults who have to reckon with their early years, and there's no shiny family image to hinder that anymore. JB and M have lost control already which is a very very expensive mercy.

[Carol]

One of my favorite all-time posts here was the person who referred to Ma and Pa Keller as the "perpetually grinning idiots".  I'd never heard a more apt description of anyone.

[neuroticcat]

Reading the prosecution's statement and just want to say: God bless the attorneys and legal team willing to do this work and eviscerate Duggar's attempted justification and defense. I imagine it's just legal form, but I also love reading that "Duggar" is arguing X, Y, or Z in their response - because it again and again names the fact that HE IS THE AGENT - with credible allegations of downloading and viewing these horrible things and with trying to squirm out of punishment with weak ass arguments. 

Also: "The application of this enhancement is based on the unrebutted testimony of Bobye Holt, which was corroborated by the self-serving testimony of his own father.2" 

Just applause all around. These people see right through JB. 

And re: the letters - standing ovation:

"Many more describe his conviction generally as an unfortunate happenstance—something that has simply befallen him despite his best efforts to avoid it.  That is precisely the problem. While Duggar is apparently continuing to tell those around him that he is the victim of “an unscrupulous young man” or an even broader conspiracy, that theory is irreconcilable with the straightforward, common-sense evidence produced at trial, which overwhelmingly reflects his culpability in repeatedly downloading and viewing CSAM on his work computer. It is also irreconcilable with the goals of sentencing, which include protecting the public and affording adequate deterrence."

"Absent some recognition from Duggar of his crimes and  his need to address his demonstrated and long-standing sexual interest in children, it is unlikely that that he will ever view his conviction as anything other than proof that he needs to be more circumspect and secretive the next time he engages in conduct involving child sexual abuse. It is equally unlikely that he will ever receive the treatment and accountability needed to prevent him from reoffending should he maintain this posture. In fact, given the apparent success of his blame tactics with some of the individuals he intends to surround himself with after his release from incarceration, it is not just unlikely—it is inconceivable.  "

[SassyPants]

5 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Reading the prosecution's statement and just want to say: God bless the attorneys and legal team willing to do this work and eviscerate Duggar's attempted justification and defense. I imagine it's just legal form, but I also love reading that "Duggar" is arguing X, Y, or Z in their response - because it again and again names the fact that HE IS THE AGENT - with credible allegations of downloading and viewing these horrible things and with trying to squirm out of punishment with weak ass arguments. 

Also: "The application of this enhancement is based on the unrebutted testimony of Bobye Holt, which was corroborated by the self-serving testimony of his own father.2" 

Just applause all around. These people see right through JB. 

And re: the letters - standing ovation:

"Many more describe his conviction generally as an unfortunate happenstance—something that has simply befallen him despite his best efforts to avoid it.  That is precisely the problem. While Duggar is apparently continuing to tell those around him that he is the victim of “an unscrupulous young man” or an even broader conspiracy, that theory is irreconcilable with the straightforward, common-sense evidence produced at trial, which overwhelmingly reflects his culpability in repeatedly downloading and viewing CSAM on his work computer. It is also irreconcilable with the goals of sentencing, which include protecting the public and affording adequate deterrence."

"Absent some recognition from Duggar of his crimes and  his need to address his demonstrated and long-standing sexual interest in children, it is unlikely that that he will ever view his conviction as anything other than proof that he needs to be more circumspect and secretive the next time he engages in conduct involving child sexual abuse. It is equally unlikely that he will ever receive the treatment and accountability needed to prevent him from reoffending should he maintain this posture. In fact, given the apparent success of his blame tactics with some of the individuals he intends to surround himself with after his release from incarceration, it is not just unlikely—it is inconceivable.  "

No grey area there. Hope the judge is listening and convinced.

[Dandruff]

15 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

"In fact, given the apparent success of his blame tactics with some of the individuals he intends to surround himself with after his release from incarceration, it is not just unlikely—it is inconceivable."

Hope these fundies fully appreciate that their letters of support are supporting the prosecution.

[AussieKrissy]

38 minutes ago, Carol said:

One of my favorite all-time posts here was the person who referred to Ma and Pa Keller as the "perpetually grinning idiots".  I'd never heard a more apt description of anyone.

needs to somehow be a post count title lol 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

So what happens on the 25th? The judge hears from the letter writers? Or just a sentence then bangs the gavel?

[Bastet]

If I remember correctly, the man who did “I pray you put this journal away” thought that church members carefully kept their children away from adult Josh. If this is true, then there must be many cult members who have no trouble believing the charges against him, and Anna would probably be aware of their reservations. Are separations in grievous circumstances like this allowed? Is it possible that non-Duggars have approached Anna? Anna may have no use for Amy, but surely people whom she respects are appalled by her situation. 
  I wasn’t raised fundiie. What am I missing? Are people around her just that willing to believe it’s all a government plot to smear good Christians?

Edited May 19, 2022 by Bastet

[Antimony]

Quote

Despite achieving some level of fame through reality television as an adult, 5 he is better known at this point for his behavior outside his family’s show, including his sexual improprieties and criminal sexual conduct.

I can feel that triumphant sip of hot coffee the Lawyer had after typing the period on this sentence.

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Reading the prosecution's statement and just want to say: God bless the attorneys and legal team willing to do this work and eviscerate Duggar's attempted justification and defense. I imagine it's just legal form, but I also love reading that "Duggar" is arguing X, Y, or Z in their response - because it again and again names the fact that HE IS THE AGENT - with credible allegations of downloading and viewing these horrible things and with trying to squirm out of punishment with weak ass arguments. 

Also: "The application of this enhancement is based on the unrebutted testimony of Bobye Holt, which was corroborated by the self-serving testimony of his own father.2" 

Just applause all around. These people see right through JB. 

And re: the letters - standing ovation:

"Many more describe his conviction generally as an unfortunate happenstance—something that has simply befallen him despite his best efforts to avoid it.  That is precisely the problem. While Duggar is apparently continuing to tell those around him that he is the victim of “an unscrupulous young man” or an even broader conspiracy, that theory is irreconcilable with the straightforward, common-sense evidence produced at trial, which overwhelmingly reflects his culpability in repeatedly downloading and viewing CSAM on his work computer. It is also irreconcilable with the goals of sentencing, which include protecting the public and affording adequate deterrence."

"Absent some recognition from Duggar of his crimes and  his need to address his demonstrated and long-standing sexual interest in children, it is unlikely that that he will ever view his conviction as anything other than proof that he needs to be more circumspect and secretive the next time he engages in conduct involving child sexual abuse. It is equally unlikely that he will ever receive the treatment and accountability needed to prevent him from reoffending should he maintain this posture. In fact, given the apparent success of his blame tactics with some of the individuals he intends to surround himself with after his release from incarceration, it is not just unlikely—it is inconceivable.  "

Yes, the prosecution has done a great job.  I hope it persuades the judge.  I know that based on his previous pattern of sentencing, we should expect 6-8 years, 12 at most.  But wouldn’t it be great if Josh got at least 15 or maybe the full 20?  I know that if he gets less than 10, I am going to question the judge’s good sense.

Are we going to have a Josh’s sentence pool?  I’ll pick unlucky 13 and be delighted if I lose to a higher number.  😄

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

If I remember correctly, the man who did “I pray you put this journal away” thought that church members carefully kept their children away from adult Josh. If this is true, then there must be many cult members who have no trouble believing the charges against him, and Anna would probably be aware of their reservations. Are separations in grievous circumstances like this allowed? Is it possible that non-Duggars have approached Anna? Anna may have no use for Amy, but surely people whom she respects are appalled by her situation. 
  I wasn’t raised fundiie. What am I missing? Are people around her just that willing to believe it’s all a government plot to smear good Christians?

Most people probably believe he is guilty, but they are not going to be so rude as to tell her so.  Anna and her kids will be looked at with pity and patronized. “Bless their hearts.”

Anna has siblings that would support her decision to divorce Josh and may have encouraged her to see what an ass-hole abuser Josh is. (Her brother Daniel offered to get her away from the Duggars during Ashley Madison, but she refused.  She has two sisters who lead “fundie lite” secular lives. At least one has been divorced, as has her brother.)  Honestly, Anna doesn’t need Amy’s public message.  She knows how many people feel and she has resources if she wants them.  She has just stubbornly refused to consider the truth.

At this point, the best we can hope is that Anna will start letting go of her role as martyr wife as time passes.  There will be no more pregnancies for at least 5 years.  Maybe she will get to think and assess her feelings.  There really is no urgency about her divorcing Josh while he is in prison.

[ToriAmos]

I don't think the details are known, but I always think about Katie Morton's husband, and how quickly he was divorced and ditched by the whole Morton-Smith conglomerate (barring his insano parents). They believe he is is innocent, but no one else had any trouble seeing his crimes for what they were. None of the Duggar siblings wrote a letter, did they? Surely they see the truth. It would be great to see the same schism open up between Boob and Meech and the rest of the family. 

The Kellers are just...I always thought they were simple, kind folk, but their support of Josh is probably the difference between Anna and her kids getting out or not. They've yolked her to that criminal yet again (and fuck David Waller while we're at it).

[CarrotCake]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Anna has siblings that would support her decision to divorce Josh and may have encouraged her to see what an ass-hole abuser Josh is. (Her brother Daniel offered to get her away from the Duggars during Ashley Madison, but she refused.  She has two sisters who lead “fundie lite” secular lives. At least one has been divorced, as has her brother.)  

I do wonder what they think. Will they actively try to reach out or is the fact that she is still so devoted the final straw for them to also condemn their sister. Although, even if they do, they might still try to help her for the sake of their nieces and nephews.

[FunDieDumDum]

I think we’re getting well ahead of ourselves (as is Amy) in talking about divorce. Or perhaps better said, in terms of mindset we’re way ahead of where Anna is sitting right now. From the evidence we have, she appears to still be stuck in complete denial with regard to Josh’s guilt. As long as she remains in that mindset, why in the hell would she think about divorcing him? She’ll instead be giving her 110% towards being a godly helpmeet, to give him the strength to find a way to prove his innocence. 🤢

Okay, now that I got past that sad state of affairs…what I would hope (for starters) is that at least some of the people she still trusts have seen through the bullshit proclamations of innocence, and will gently begin to help her come to terms with the idea of his guilt. We consider it fact, but she’s far away from accepting that. Only when she has accepted that he is, in fact, guilty of his crimes, and has again lied to her and everyone else, could she even begin contemplating leaving him in any way, shape or form.

As for Amy, she is angry (said so clearly herself) with members of her family who continue to back Josh, and given that she’s probably been cut off from everyone her public statements are equally a need to express her anger, be heard by them, make sure the public hears it, too…and yeah, maybe reach out to Anna, but I think she knows that isn’t going to bring any results right now.

[SorenaJ]

I'm guessing 7 years. 

[CarrotCake]

2 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

I'm guessing 7 years. 

By that time Anna would be 40, for sure they will try the hardest to get one more redemption baby...

I really hope he gets at least 10, to minimize the chance of any more offspring.

[Smee]

I’m optimistically going for 12.

Also thinking “Sweeping crackers for a lower prison sentence” as the next thread title?

I think Amy just wants to put an opinion out there and doesn’t really expect Anna to listen or care what she thinks. And that’s fine too. Like how I sometimes post on fj what I wish I could say to various fundies, even though I know the minuscule odds of them a) reading here and b) being receptive to a single word posted. Amy’s just got a bigger audience.

[Mrs Ms]

5 hours ago, ToriAmos said:

 

The Kellers are just...I always thought they were simple, kind folk, but their support of Josh is probably the difference between Anna and her kids getting out or not. They've yolked her to that criminal yet again (and fuck David Waller while we're at it).

They chose John Shrader, Josh Duggar and David Waller for their daughters. I get that they were dirt poor and they are clearly not the brainiest bunch around, but cracker sweeping criminals, they SUCK at choosing husbands!! 
(Rebecca is divorced, which doesn’t say anything about her former husband, but does say a lot about her compatibility with him. ‘Nother top notch choice 🙄)

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

If I remember correctly, the man who did “I pray you put this journal away” thought that church members carefully kept their children away from adult Josh. If this is true, then there must be many cult members who have no trouble believing the charges against him, and Anna would probably be aware of their reservations. Are separations in grievous circumstances like this allowed? Is it possible that non-Duggars have approached Anna? Anna may have no use for Amy, but surely people whom she respects are appalled by her situation. 
  I wasn’t raised fundiie. What am I missing? Are people around her just that willing to believe it’s all a government plot to smear good Christians?

They can believe he did it while at the same time strongly believing the government should stay out of it and let them deal with it in their own way. It doesn't matter that Josh has proven that this can't be prayed out of him, people in his religious circles might have been very happy to keep this information private. A core part of their beliefs is that Jesus and prayer can fix even the worst humans. To accept Josh can't be eventually seen as trust worthy is to accept their beliefs are untrue. Of course, Josh isn't repenting, which has to trouble some of them. Also Josh is one of them and child predators are supposed to be the evil liberals, so there are probably plenty who do believe he is innocent. 

But I suspect no one is saying anything to Anna's face, even if they do think he did it. 

[Giraffe]

3 hours ago, FunDieDumDum said:

I think we’re getting well ahead of ourselves (as is Amy) in talking about divorce. Or perhaps better said, in terms of mindset we’re way ahead of where Anna is sitting right now. From the evidence we have, she appears to still be stuck in complete denial with regard to Josh’s guilt. As long as she remains in that mindset, why in the hell would she think about divorcing him? She’ll instead be giving her 110% towards being a godly helpmeet, to give him the strength to find a way to prove his innocence. 🤢

Okay, now that I got past that sad state of affairs…what I would hope (for starters) is that at least some of the people she still trusts have seen through the bullshit proclamations of innocence, and will gently begin to help her come to terms with the idea of his guilt. We consider it fact, but she’s far away from accepting that. Only when she has accepted that he is, in fact, guilty of his crimes, and has again lied to her and everyone else, could she even begin contemplating leaving him in any way, shape or form.

As for Amy, she is angry (said so clearly herself) with members of her family who continue to back Josh, and given that she’s probably been cut off from everyone her public statements are equally a need to express her anger, be heard by them, make sure the public hears it, too…and yeah, maybe reach out to Anna, but I think she knows that isn’t going to bring any results right now.

I get where you’re coming from but it’s not as though this is the first time Anna’s experienced information that could lead her to wonder who the hell she married. At this point she’s had years to realize she both: married a scumbag and has a father who would rather see her remain married than get divorced, no matter what.
 

With all of that behind her she chose to stay (and have yet another child with him) when he was arrested on suspicion of child predation. 
 

I don’t think it’s us getting ahead of ourselves so much as us wondering, if she hasn’t left even after sitting through a trial and him being convicted of being a child predator, what the hell would he have to do for her to decide divorce is acceptable?

[samurai_sarah]

Carry on here: