(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[louisa05]

On 5/17/2022 at 10:01 AM, livinginthelight said:

Hitler loved art and music as well. Despite his evilness, there was a place in his soul for beauty. I've always wondered how his heart didn't explode from the conflict.

Your point is well taken. We expect bad people to be 100% bad, which makes it hard to believe accusations of terrible behavior in people we have liked or respected.

He was also good with children. The children of his closest associates adored him. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Well the work he has done is basically just reciting Gothard materials. Gothard does exactly encourage critical thinking or truly understanding the stories of the people he has met. 

Exactly. Aside from clever grifters like Jim Bob, most of the people attracted to this cult are dumber than dirt. 

[Jinder Roles]

I think this is how Amy processes, and I think she thinks this is a good way to reach out to Anna. It’s also very possible she’s burned bridges and can’t reach out another way. 
 

Amy has a history of jumping the gun and over-sharing, to her it’s being authentic (IMO). I’m sympathetic to her in this situation because she grew up with these people and is disgusted by the child abuse and wants to fix it/not be complicit. 
 

If I had to guess her zodiac, I’d say she has heavy Aries placements😂

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

5 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

I think this is how Amy processes, and I think she thinks this is a good way to reach out to Anna. It’s also very possible she’s burned bridges and can’t reach out another way. 
 

Amy has a history of jumping the gun and over-sharing, to her it’s being authentic (IMO). I’m sympathetic to her in this situation because she grew up with these people and is disgusted by the child abuse and wants to fix it/not be complicit. 
 

If I had to guess her zodiac, I’d say she has heavy Aries placements😂

I know this might not be a popular sentiment, but I think Amy should STFU.

Even if it reaches Anna, her rant will have no impact on her and it could even have the at least short-term effect of causing Anna to triple down on her devotion to the creep. "Whahh, the whole world is against my wonderful husband. He needs me more than ever!" Amy is smart enough to know this, so what's her motivation?  To me, it feels like a great big LOOK AT ME!!

Am I being too harsh or is F'Amy living up to her moniker?

[onekidanddone]

Mike Keller’s letter reminded me of the random Rod kid’s letters. Abysmal use of language and so very simplistic. 

we know why the Rods write that way they do, but what is Kelley’s story? Was he also home skooled?

Edited May 18, 2022 by onekidanddone

[SassyPants]

5 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I know this might not be a popular sentiment, but I think Amy should STFU.

Even if it reaches Anna, her rant will have no impact on her and it could even have the at least short-term effect of causing Anna to triple down on her devotion to the creep. "Whahh, the whole world is against my wonderful husband. He needs me more than ever!" Amy is smart enough to know this, so what's her motivation?  To me, it feels like a great big LOOK AT ME!!

Am I being too harsh or is F'Amy living up to her moniker?

It might be a direct FU to Michelle and especially JB Duggar. Can you imagine that JB was a complete d*ck to Amy and her family. Could you just imagine how he used Gothardism as a weapon against Amy and Deanna? Could you imagine his passive aggressive digs? I think this was her way to strike back, especially Amy had be under a NDA-

Hey Uncle JB, sure my mom had a child out of wedlock and eventually got a divorce, and I wear pants and drink alcohol, but your first born son was a teenage molester and is now a felon convicted of CSA! All that Jesus, and your headship produced a foul felon!

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

9 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

It might be a direct FU to Michelle and especially JB Duggar. Can you imagine that JB was a complete d*ck to Amy and her family. Could you just imagine how he used Gothardism as a weapon against Amy and Deanna? Could you imagine his passive aggressive digs? I think this was her way to strike back, especially Amy had be under a NDA-

Hey Uncle JB, sure my mom had a child out of wedlock and eventually got a divorce, and I wear pants and drink alcohol, but your first born son was a teenage molester and is now a felon convicted of CSA! All that Jesus, and your headship produced a foul felon!

True!  Except why not call them out directly?  I think she and Deanna have (sensibly) already nuked those relationships.  I'd respect her more if she did that.

 

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

True!  Except why not call them out directly?  I think she and Deanna have (sensibly) already nuked those relationships.  I'd respect her more if she did that.

 

The Duggars et al have perfected passive aggressiveness. They think it’s kinder. Of course most see through it.

[Guanabana]

6 hours ago, Cam said:

I doubt that Anna is working feverishly behind the scenes to divorce Josh. Her post of “there’s more to the story” cemented for me exactly where she stands. Josh in jail gives her time to romanticize her relationship with him. Constant phone calls to him gives her purpose in life. She will never leave him. JB and Pa Keller will see to that.

The only thing Anna will ever work feverishly at is covering for her convicted pedophile, good for nothing husband, and getting pregnant by the aforementioned amoral polecat. 

[Guanabana]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

It might be a direct FU to Michelle and especially JB Duggar. Can you imagine that JB was a complete d*ck to Amy and her family. Could you just imagine how he used Gothardism as a weapon against Amy and Deanna? Could you imagine his passive aggressive digs? I think this was her way to strike back, especially Amy had be under a NDA-

Hey Uncle JB, sure my mom had a child out of wedlock and eventually got a divorce, and I wear pants and drink alcohol, but your first born son was a teenage molester and is now a felon convicted of CSA! All that Jesus, and your headship produced a foul felon!

JB has used the my sister had a child out of wedlock and it ruined her life trope for decades. Of course while condescendingly saying he and his godly family accept them. Because Amy wore pants and had a normal life it made her the object of pity by her ass of an uncle. Amy was considered such a bad influence by virtue of being born that she could only visit her cousins at their home, and under direct supervision of JB and M. Funny how that treatment now extends to Jill. 

I recall a video of JB in Australia , Lauren was courting Josiah and along for the trip. During what should have been his testimony he droned on about Deanna’s sins. I wondered why JB never uses his own failings as part of his testimony. So there he was throwing his sister under the bus for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile he and Michelle were aiding and abetting a fucking pedophile. So hell yeah, a big FU to holier than thou JB & M. 

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, Jinder Roles said:

I think this is how Amy processes, and I think she thinks this is a good way to reach out to Anna. It’s also very possible she’s burned bridges and can’t reach out another way. 
 

Amy has a history of jumping the gun and over-sharing, to her it’s being authentic (IMO). I’m sympathetic to her in this situation because she grew up with these people and is disgusted by the child abuse and wants to fix it/not be complicit. 
 

If I had to guess her zodiac, I’d say she has heavy Aries placements😂

I agree. I think typing things out helps her process (I know it helps me, sorry for the occasional novels I spew here!). I also think she likely feels it's important for her to say those things and to reach out to Anna publicly.

I mean, if she didn't post anything, there would be people at some point going "well, why didn't she offer to support and help Anna?" Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But now she's said her piece, put an offer of help out there, and nobody can come along later and act like she's complicit or that she didn't do anything to help Anna.

I am right this second printing information for a local group that provides help and support for people transitioning out of prison and back into society, and they also have a group and resources for families of people who are incarcerated. I hope if there's a group like that near her, Anna at least speaks to them. I'm sure she'll just pray a lot instead, but she could probably use the support of a group of people like that - familiar with the justice system, including some people in a similar position as her, with an incarcerated spouse. 

[fundiefan]

Those kids are screwed. They're being taught that their father is a "godly" man - which is obviously false. They will not have a clue what a "true godly" man is because from day one that concept has been twisted to suit their father. 

Disturbing. Anna gets no sympathy from me. In the beginning I never really knew what to think of her. But now, after all this time & the trial & conviction, she no longer gets a pass because I can't place her in a category of good/bad/whatever. She is fully responsible for the lives of those 7 children and how they are growing up and what they are learning. She has already failed them. 

[libgirl2]

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

He was also good with children. The children of his closest associates adored him. 

Yes, they did. 

10 hours ago, gustava said:

Hitler and Eva Braun did not marry until they were in the bunker as Allied troops surrounded the area.  Then they committed suicide.

I have read several biographies on both and other books about the time in the bunker. Eva only wanted to be his wife and knowing that the end was near, he decided to grant her "dying" wish. 

[Dandruff]

5 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Mike Keller’s letter reminded me of the random Rod kid’s letters. Abysmal use of language and so very simplistic. 

we know why the Rods write that way they do, but what is Kelley’s story? Was he also home skooled?

My cynical mind is wondering whether he (vs., say, a grandchild) actually wrote that letter.

5 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

True!  Except why not call them out directly?  I think she and Deanna have (sensibly) already nuked those relationships.  I'd respect her more if she did that.

Maybe Amy wants to just keep JB on simmer until Josh is sentenced? 

I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up having a lot more to say.  I'm ready for it.

[libgirl2]

Just now, Dandruff said:

My cynical mind is wondering whether he (vs., say, a grandchild) actually wrote that letter.

Maybe Amy wants to just keep JB on simmer until Josh is sentenced? 

I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up having a lot more to say.  I'm ready for it.

So am I. 

[AussieKrissy]

10 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

So am I. 

let the games begin 

[Sabine]

Personally i think what Amy did with her rant and telling Anna that divorce is not shameful or need not be shameful is essentially denying Anna a way out later a few years down when Anna might want to complain about no one telling her that she could / should divorce the husband. Amy can stand there and just point to her rant and tell Anna and supporters to 'STFU'. You were told, by a woman and YOU choose to stand by. You were told by a woman that it is OK to leave your cheating, lying, csa consuming husband, and you choose not too. 

Personally i think that so far Amy and the Dillards are the only ones that have actually shown any kindness towards Anna, even if Anna might not think of it as kindness. Sometimes it is better to be called rude and unkind then being a liar. And Anna is surrounded by liars atm. Her inlaws, her family, all lying to her about what would / is the best thing for Anna and Annas kidlings. 

Go Amy, rain these truth down on this family. Someone has too. 

[Zebedee]

The prosecution response to the defence's wish for 5 years is up. Safe to say, use extreme caution when reading it.
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.152.0.pdf

The TLDR version is that they are not budging. They are sticking with the enhancements for content citing precedents from other cases. Also, the number of images (precedents wrt whether he viewed or not is irrelevant) with a dig in to the defense's tech expert:  "As such, her opinions on the forensic evidence in this case have been proven demonstrably unreliable and should not be relied upon for any matter of consequence. Accordingly, Duggar’s objection is legally irrelevant and factually incorrect".

Pattern of activity enhancement: "Duggar also objects to the application of the pattern-of-activity enhancement, claiming that it is based on unreliable reporting from “a tabloid magazine” and that his counsel’s “[r]esearch has revealed no case law supporting application of this substantial enhancement to conduct that occurred when a defendant was … a juvenile.” . Duggar is wrong on both counts. The application of this enhancement is based on the unrebutted testimony of Bobye Holt, which was corroborated by the self-serving testimony of his own father." Also: "Duggar and his father previously claimed that he confessed his crimes to Mrs. Holt in her role as his spiritual advisor and a member of the clergy of his church. Without explanation, Duggar no longer appears to believe that Mrs. Holt was his spiritual advisor or a church elder, describing her testimony now as false and referring to her as simply “Holt.”"

Finally, wrt growing up on TV blah blah in the defence character letters, they have this to say: "Duggar also notes that he grew up “in front of television cameras,” and appears to suggest that his crimes are related to “the challenges associated with being a child whose everyday life is viewed by the public and, in certain instances, being criticized by the media and complete strangers.”" and "These claims only underscore the appropriateness of the Government’s sentencing recommendation. Indeed, his supportive family and public-facing and privileged lifestyle make his pattern of criminal conduct all the more baffling". They continue, that none of the letters show any recognition of the seriousness of the crime, or that he has any remorse especially calling out the letter from Timothy Burress and his weird conspiracy theories, ending with "In fact, given the apparent success of his blame tactics with some of the individuals he intends to surround himself with after his release from incarceration, it is not just unlikely—it is inconceivable." (referring to reoffending, bolding mine.)

They end with some blurb about his trying to say that using a computer makes it less bad.

Oh, and he won't be getting his computer back.

[Mela99]

He was also good with children. The children of his closest associates adored him. 

It’s always amazing to me how people seem to think even the most evil can’t be really good at putting on a good other side to show the world.

Ted Bundy volunteered for the suicide hotline. He had plenty of other women who testified that he was a gentleman and a good friend.

Society needs to understand that both things can be true. But one does not negate the other.

That’s why Ted got the chair and no amount of “but my daddy cleans up crackers” will cover up his deeds.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

6 minutes ago, Sabine said:

Personally i think what Amy did with her rant and telling Anna that divorce is not shameful or need not be shameful is essentially denying Anna a way out later a few years down when Anna might want to complain about no one telling her that she could / should divorce the husband. Amy can stand there and just point to her rant and tell Anna and supporters to 'STFU'. You were told, by a woman and YOU choose to stand by.

But "I tried to tell you!" doesn't help anything here. Anna's unlikely to hear Amy's rant, and even if she did, she's not going to listen to the hussy who kissed boys before she was even married.  😮

The Kellers are the ones who need to tell her to come home. It's what any decent parents would tell their daughter.  But these are the same sacks of shit who sold her to the Duggars in the first place, so we know this isn't going to happen.

Speaking of the Kellers, does anyone know what is wrong with Pa?  I think I read years ago he had serious mobility problems and when the Fabulous one was going on about building a ramp for the Kellers in his letter, it triggered the memory.  Not that I wish him an early demise.  Just a little curious. 

[Hazelbunny]

The Kellers aren't decent parents. 

Most pedophiles are actually really nice guys. Great with kids and all. Thats what makes them so dangerous. (IMO) 

[Sabine]

27 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

But "I tried to tell you!" doesn't help anything here. Anna's unlikely to hear Amy's rant, and even if she did, she's not going to listen to the hussy who kissed boys before she was even married.  😮

The Kellers are the ones who need to tell her to come home. It's what any decent parents would tell their daughter.  But these are the same sacks of shit who sold her to the Duggars in the first place, so we know this isn't going to happen.

Speaking of the Kellers, does anyone know what is wrong with Pa?  I think I read years ago he had serious mobility problems and when the Fabulous one was going on about building a ramp for the Kellers in his letter, it triggered the memory.  Not that I wish him an early demise.  Just a little curious. 

The Kellers are going to tell her to stay put. 

The Duggars are telling her to stay put. 

Her Church is telling her to stay put. 

The only one so far that tells Anna that divorce is OK is Amy. And Anna can choose to listen, and she for sure knows what Amy posted as it is printed out for all to read everywhere, i found the item at HuffPo. And personally i think that that was a good thing to do. Maybe now other people dare tell Anna that divorce is an option, that she would not lose her children, that she would not be poverty stricken in a ditch, that she can rebuild her life and that of her children free of the stain that is Josh Duggar. Someone has got to be the first one. Well done Amy! Go yell your truth with a Megaphone. 

[Antimony]

I get where Amy is coming from emotionally. Practically, strategically, I can't imagine doing anything worse. If I were Anna (ew), this post would read as public shaming and it would further prove to me that Amy is not the person in the family I should tell sensitive information to. (That's already been clear for a while, but still.) Derrick got some flack for speaking to Anna kindly at trial, but that is actually probably the better, more effective de-programming move. Obviously, Amy isn't obligated to put up with Anna's whining or pity party or excuses but she can't have both worlds of being both loud of social media and the one recusing her. It won't work. 

When I worked at a domestic violence center, this was a big part of our training. "Do not tell people to leave their partners, do not push them to do it," was constant advice, "it's not your job, it makes you look like a bit of an ass, it implies you know more about the relationship than you do, and more than anything, it often makes them stay longer. I mean, it's a little different here too, Anna is also an abusive person by means of complicity in the cult, but blah blah blah cycles of abuse, dual roles, cult mind games, etc, etc, all stuff we've said before. 

 

[Hane]

It’s staggering how similar Michelle’s and Pa Keller’s letters are, and how myopic. They tick off all the fundie “good Christian husband/daddy” traits, oblivious to the fact that these things are absolutely meaningless in this case, and would be considered woefully shallow in the best of real-world circumstances.

[neuroticcat]

12 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

The letters boggle my mind.  I get the defense wants those submitting letters to focus any positive character traits they think Josh might possess.  But how is it a good idea to keep referencing the young children at home? 

I think it genuinely reveals how out of touch they are with the cult's view of children as non-persons. Not only are they in denial of what they heard at the trial, and believing whatever BS "more to the story" they've heard, but when have they ever seriously considered the well being of a child? Only within the contexts of what cult-teaching told them to consider as the Most Godly Way and when children are extensions of narcissist parents. Even in these letters the children are mentioned within the context of Josh and how he is a good daddy and how can they be deprived of that?  The thought of the personhood of a child, or that a judge might view a child as having value and worth protecting - no matter what "daddy" wants - does. not. even. enter. their. minds. 

The disconnect feels confounding, but, nope. They are showing the judge exactly who they are and how little the safety of children matters to them. I hope the judge believes them.