(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[neuroticcat]

I 100 percent think the child-hating cult like teachings he grew up with contributed to whatever proclivities he already had or developed. It makes sense to me that there are elements of violence, degradation, shame, and power over children.  In fundamentalism, children have no inherent dignity. They are “owned” by the parents - they say entrusted or blessed or whatever,  - no they belong to their narcissistic parents.
 

The whole cult is child-hating, in my opinion, despite all their words about living children. Children are there to be used: as arrows for dominionist agenda, to get supply/applause for parents, to serve others, to evangelize. They are to die to themselves, so there is no sense of personhood. It is rotten and abusive to the core. Even the boundary less way QF teaching makes God responsible for how many children you have takes away parents actually “wanting” children. They literally can’t say no to having babies. I think if you can’t say no, you also can’t genuinely say yes. 
 

Maybe he still would have done this without being raised in the cult, I don’t know, but the cult teachings surely fed it.

Misopedia and pedogyny

In general, I think the fact that the terms for hatred for children are not widely known shows how culturally clueless we are in general to the dehumanization and malicious exploitation of children. 

[Bastet]

37 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I 100 percent think the child-hating cult like teachings he grew up with contributed to whatever proclivities he already had or developed. It makes sense to me that there are elements of violence, degradation, shame, and power over children.  In fundamentalism, children have no inherent dignity. They are “owned” by the parents - they say entrusted or blessed or whatever,  - no they belong to their narcissistic parents.
 

The whole cult is child-hating, in my opinion, despite all their words about living children. Children are there to be used: as arrows for dominionist agenda, to get supply/applause for parents, to serve others, to evangelize. They are to die to themselves, so there is no sense of personhood. It is rotten and abusive to the core. Even the boundary less way QF teaching makes God responsible for how many children you have takes away parents actually “wanting” children. They literally can’t say no to having babies. I think if you can’t say no, you also can’t genuinely say yes. 
 

Maybe he still would have done this without being raised in the cult, I don’t know, but the cult teachings surely fed it.

Misopedia and pedogyny

In general, I think the fact that the terms for hatred for children are not widely known shows how culturally clueless we are in general to the dehumanization and malicious exploitation of children. 

I think this attitude that you so cogently explain is exemplified by blanket training. Put the baby on the blanket, tempt her off it with a toy, and then wham! That’ll teach her. (Even imagining doing that to a baby—my own baby!—gives me pain. How can anyone  do this?) The story of the Pearls’ honeymoon is relevant here. It was dehumanizing and abusive in a similar way. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Bastet

[neuroticcat]

I agree! Blanket training, instant obedience, cheerful countenance, giving negative feelings to God, unquestioning submission - all of these soul killing teachings rob children of their inherent dignity and groom them for further abuse from within their family and without. It adds the spiritually abusive element too when Pearls et al say God wants it that way and that is what God is like. The Pearls teachings on child beating are soulless. I think fundamentalist parenting is also cult like because it draws you further and further in. I’ve encountered fundies online who know enough to not recommend the Pearls’ teachings outright but still are willing to do the “spit out the bones” disclaimer garbage. I think if you’re a new Christian, there’s no way you land at “beat your 6 mo old”  without starting with fundie lite influencers who don’t talk about spanking (m is for mama) even though they likely do until you get further and further in and it all seems normal. 

They claim to love their Bibles so much and then ignore Jesus giving dignity and presence to children and promising judgment to those who hurt children. I will never understand the fundie desperation to dominate children as biblical mandate. I hate it so much. 

[Bastet]

(

Edited May 16, 2022 by Bastet
Repeating myself

[Cults-r-us]

29 minutes ago, Bastet said:

(

I think the instant obedience, submission teaching is the only way one could manage 15 kids at the grocery store or have a classroom for the group with one teacher. It's not for the good of their offspring, but rather for the ease of managing them for the parents.

[Jackie3]

7 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

So I do think rapists, pedophiles, and serial killers should be put in prison until those issues can be solved (and I don't know if they ever can be). 

Absolutely. And people who create or watch CSA should be included in this group.

For example, one of the victimized children in the videos has been rescued. This child suffered torture and rape.  I am sure the she has multiple issues, including complex trauma.   Imagine her terror and disappointment if she found out that Josh or the video producers were set free, without any punishment at all. She probably wouldn't feel safe in this world.  Imagine if she ran into them at a store--the amount of re-traumatization would be horrific.

What a terrible message this would send about how we view evil (and about the power of white Christian men.) Can't believe anyone would want to send such a message to a victimized little girl. 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Jackie3

[GuineaPigCourtship]

@Antimony, I know it's a few pages late but I appreciate the insight you gave on the prison abolitionist movement. It's not something I've heard of before.

We are just starting gentle parenting discipline with our 16mo daughter and I can understand the appeal of more harsh methods if you had to do this with 19 kids. The thing is, we want her to become who she is going to be as she grows, not who we force her to be. These people are so awful, having a dozen kids so they can ignore everything that makes those kids fun and delightful.

[Sullie06]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:03 PM, Satan'sFortress said:

I was thinking all along that Josh should get the maximum sentence allowed,  but knowing that he brought someone a box of diarrhea medication during the pandemic has made me reconsider everything.  I think he should be released immediately. 

For sure! He's a national hero for doing that.  😆

Edited May 16, 2022 by Sullie06

[Father Son Holy Goat]

12 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Absolutely. And people who create or watch CSA should be included in this group.

For example, one of the victimized children in the videos has been rescued. This child suffered torture and rape.  I am sure the she has multiple issues, including complex trauma.   Imagine her terror and disappointment if she found out that Josh or the video producers were set free, without any punishment at all. She probably wouldn't feel safe in this world.  Imagine if she ran into them at a store--the amount of re-traumatization would be horrific.

What a terrible message this would send about how we view evil (and about the power of white Christian men.) Can't believe anyone would want to send such a message to a victimized little girl. 

 

If she is willing, I hope she’s able to give a victim impact statement. 

[imokit]

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

If she is willing, I hope she’s able to give a victim impact statement. 

We know a mother of one of the children in the videos has.  Its in with the prosecution bits.  Though I don't know if it was written for this case or if there is one which gets reused every time this child's pictures come up .

[lumpentheologie]

I don’t know that Josh has to hate children to enjoy watching them be sexually abused and tortured. He just has to think of them as objects that exist for his pleasure instead of people in their own right. Given the narcissistic tendencies we’ve seen in Josh I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case. He’s also spent his whole life in a cult that justifies those feelings by teaching that women and children literally exist to serve men. 

My mother has mentioned that when she was a kid in the 40s people thought children didn’t really feel pain. So they weren’t given painkillers for medical procedures, etc. I guess they figured anything the kid wouldn’t remember as an adult wasn’t really real. I could see fundies believing in this and using it to justify beating their babies — perhaps Josh has convinced himself that what he was watching wasn’t that bad because the victims were so young.

But I don’t think Josh actually cares about other people at all. If he acts kindly towards others, it’s either a performance (he wants to cultivate a persona that’s useful to him) or he feels guilty and is trying to make up for his other actions before God. But IMO either way it’s about him and not anyone else. 

[Jana814]

I don’t think Josh cared about anyone or anything but himself. If he cared about any of these things he wouldn’t have done whey he did. 

[Hazelbunny]

2 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

 

My mother has mentioned that when she was a kid in the 40s people thought children didn’t really feel pain. So they weren’t given painkillers for medical procedures, etc. I guess they figured anything the kid wouldn’t remember as an adult wasn’t really real. I could see fundies believing in this and using it to justify beating their babies — perhaps Josh has convinced himself that what he was watching wasn’t that bad because the victims were so young.

But I don’t think Josh actually cares about other people at all. If he acts kindly towards others, it’s either a performance (he wants to cultivate a persona that’s useful to him) or he feels guilty and is trying to make up for his other actions before God. But IMO either way it’s about him and not anyone else. 

It is amazing what one does remember from early childhood. When I was going through all the stuff with my eye (retinal detatchment) I kept wondering why I would start to panic badly whenever they did anything to my eye and held my head in place while they did it.(Actually fainted before the last Op due to that - they took a while to get the anesthesia going - tiny veins) until my mum explained how they do eye exams on babies (wrapped in a blanket, eye held open and head held in place) - then it made sense. My body still remebers very well, even if my brain doesn't!  

[SoSoNosy]

This is going back a way, but I wanted to step in to say that personally giving money to another person is not only not a tax deduction, it can cause more taxation.  There is something like at $15k/year limit on what one person can give to another person.  Josh and Anna could give the widow a total of $30k because they gave together.  To get a deduction for a donation, the recipient has to be registered as a charity (I think it is 501(c ) or something like that).

 

[SassyPants]

26 minutes ago, SoSoNosy said:

This is going back a way, but I wanted to step in to say that personally giving money to another person is not only not a tax deduction, it can cause more taxation.  There is something like at $15k/year limit on what one person can give to another person.  Josh and Anna could give the widow a total of $30k because they gave together.  To get a deduction for a donation, the recipient has to be registered as a charity (I think it is 501(c ) or something like that).

 

Listen, if there’s one area where JB is superior to most, on the ball and willing to put in the effort, it’s about the write off,  the grift and gaming the system. If there’s a way to give $$$, yet receive more $$$$ or some advantage in return, JB has figured it out and executed it.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Hazelbunny said:

It is amazing what one does remember from early childhood. When I was going through all the stuff with my eye (retinal detatchment) I kept wondering why I would start to panic badly whenever they did anything to my eye and held my head in place while they did it.(Actually fainted before the last Op due to that - they took a while to get the anesthesia going - tiny veins) until my mum explained how they do eye exams on babies (wrapped in a blanket, eye held open and head held in place) - then it made sense. My body still remebers very well, even if my brain doesn't!  

Just want to explain that procedures are performed on infants without anesthetic because of concerns about the danger of anesthetics.  

[sndral]

2 hours ago, SoSoNosy said:

This is going back a way, but I wanted to step in to say that personally giving money to another person is not only not a tax deduction, it can cause more taxation.  There is something like at $15k/year limit on what one person can give to another person.  Josh and Anna could give the widow a total of $30k because they gave together.  To get a deduction for a donation, the recipient has to be registered as a charity (I think it is 501(c ) or something like that).

 

I thought that too, until I looked into helping my son w/ a down payment on a house & learned that the gift tax exclusion was $15,000 last year, for 2022 it’s $16,000. However, the recipient doesn’t need to pay taxes on the gift nor does the donor, even if it’s over $16,000, the donor just needs to file IRS form 709 for any amount over $16,000 & that extra gets added to the value of their estate & unless their estate + xtra gifts will exceed $12 million+ the estate won’t owe either. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/gift-tax-rate

That said, my speculation is that Josh may have set up a go fund me kind of deal for the widow, but I doubt he paid her $2,000 per month out of his own pocket. If he did & I was Anna I’d be pissed that he was giving away that kind of money while I & my children were stuck living in a windowless warehouse. 
OTH, if I was the Judge the ‘fact’ that Josh had that kind of cash to give away might persuade me to impose a hefty fine as part of Josh’s sentence - I think the max for a federal felony is $250,000.

[Cam]

I’m thinking the cost of living in NWA is reasonable, tho I could be wrong. But $2000 a month is a lot of compensation from one individual for being widowed. Wouldn’t a widow also be getting some kind of social security money from the gubment? And wouldn’t she also be eligible for food stamps? Should her church also be helping her when necessary, since the Bible specifically mentions helping widows? I’m wondering how Josh decided on the magical number of two thousand bucks to donate to her.
 

I wonder how many, if any, siblings knew Josh was supposedly supplementing this woman’s income. He’s living in JB supplied housing and his costly legal defense was also JB supplied. But he tries to look magnanimous by financially supporting a widow by giving her a nice monthly chunk of cash. Does it even seem appropriate that a man with a wife and seven kids should give money to a widow?  If anything, shouldn’t it be referred to as a gift Josh and Anna were giving? Not just Josh?

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cam

[Meggo]

I missed the widow thing... WHY is he giving money to this person? Is it the widow of a friend of his, is he buying her silence/cooperation (yes, I may watch too much L&O but also - wouldn't put it past him...) 

 

[Marshmallow World]

For all we know, Josh gave a couple of monetary gifts to a widow in need, which is exaggerated and being elevated to "dusting crackers" status. But that said (are you sitting down, David Waller?) sometimes people occasionally do good deeds while simultaneously doing unspeakable acts. This isn't black and white. 

[ElizaB]

I always am reminded of the fact that while Hitler was one of the most evil people in the world he loved dogs and treated animal very well. So even evil people can’t be evil 100 percent of the time. 

[Jana814]

38 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

I always am reminded of the fact that while Hitler was one of the most evil people in the world he loved dogs and treated animal very well. So even evil people can’t be evil 100 percent of the time. 

I didn’t know that about Hitler. 

[livinginthelight]

35 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

I always am reminded of the fact that while Hitler was one of the most evil people in the world he loved dogs and treated animal very well. So even evil people can’t be evil 100 percent of the time. 

Hitler loved art and music as well. Despite his evilness, there was a place in his soul for beauty. I've always wondered how his heart didn't explode from the conflict.

Your point is well taken. We expect bad people to be 100% bad, which makes it hard to believe accusations of terrible behavior in people we have liked or respected.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

3 hours ago, Meggo said:

I missed the widow thing... WHY is he giving money to this person? Is it the widow of a friend of his, is he buying her silence/cooperation (yes, I may watch too much L&O but also - wouldn't put it past him...) 

 

She’s Clark Wilson’s widow. The Wilsons were friends with Jim Bob and Michelle, and Clark worked in construction. He helped a lot with building new homes for the Duggars and the Bates. Clark also taught the families construction skills, which many of them are still using. (Apparently Josh did some house flipping when he wasn’t watching CSAM/porn at the car lot.) Anyway, there are good reasons why he would want to help the Wilsons, but Mrs. Wilson could easily know secrets from his past. I noticed that she didn’t write a letter. Personally I think that Josh was coordinating donations from others, and it wasn’t all his money.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

21 hours ago, Jana814 said:

I don’t think Josh cared about anyone or anything but himself. If he cared about any of these things he wouldn’t have done whey he did. 

None of the things he did- molesting his sisters, cheating on Anna, watching csam.