(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[anjulibai]

I hoping that the letters will show the judge that Josh lives in a community that is in complete denial to his crimes, and that Josh needs to be removed from that community for as long as possible in order to protect it's weakest/youngest members. 

I'm also hoping that Josh's refusal to admit guilt to his crimes and his ability to convince others that he's innocent will show the judge how easy it will be for Josh to reoffend or do worse. 

[sleepygirl1]

Amen to the post above!

[Father Son Holy Goat]

3 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

It's not just SA, it's PA too. I once worked with an oppositional, angry boy who routinely beat up his little sister and once, while doing so, accidentally broke her arm.  In meetings, his mother would say things like, "They were just wrestling." "She can tease him something awful." Once she chided me, "Aw, you've made him feel bad, by bringing up the broken arm again." The sister was right there, watching her mom love on her assaultive son. 

Exact same dynamic. It' was the sister's fault, we won't talk about it, let's forget about it, let's not make the boy feel bad.

And years from then Mom will wonder why her daughter went no contact with her. It’s a mystery!

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Do you think Josh despises children? Piss him off? Like by the time he was an adult he could no longer stand the notion of “another kid’?

I don't think he despises children, in general, but that he despised having to play the responsible, caring older brother to a steady stream of them.  Each new sibling - at least until JB&M found a way to make $$$s off of them - meant less food, probably less positive attention, and (I'm guessing) more punishments for not doing his parents' job well enough.  Any hopes he might have had for a decent education likely decreased with each new kid sitting around the table for Wisdom Booklet study.  The noise must have been incredible, at least when they weren't all scared into submission.  Meanwhile, his parents got to show off their fertility and sexuality to the world while he was expected to look down at his sneakers if so much as the image of a less than fully covered up female was in front of him.  Significantly (I believe), his younger sisters were, quite literally, tasked with calling out "Nike!" as a warning.  They were given some control over his sexuality and could have ratted him out in a moment if he didn't look down quickly enough.  I suspect that he resented it a lot.

I have no idea whether he had some underlying tendencies that, along with what I believe to be a harsh, hypocritical upbringing, led to him molesting then obtaining/watching CSAM material.  I suspect so, since none of his brothers have been in the news for anything remotely similar.  Still, I don't think that he broadly despises children.  I believe he probably cares about his own kids, but would have preferred fewer, and is generally neutral about his nieces, nephews, and others in his circle.  That said, and given what he has been convicted of, I don't think he should be allowed unsupervised access to any children - probably ever.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Dandruff

[Bethy]

10 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

And years from then Mom will wonder why her daughter went no contact with her. It’s a mystery!

I'm sure it'd be explained away..."that friend group she got into at college, bad influences" or "her significant other is isolating her from the family and not letting her spend time with us." Or, depending on their religious leanings, "she's harboring unforgiveness in her heart toward her brother for things that happened YEARS ago."

[Father Son Holy Goat]

12 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Significantly (I believe), his younger sisters were, quite literally, tasked with calling out "Nike!" as a warning.  They were given some control over his sexuality and could have ratted him out in a moment if he didn't look down quickly enough.  I suspect that he resented it a lot.

I never considered that aspect of his upbringing. Raping his sisters could have been a way to bring them back under his control. 

I do think Josh resents children because with every child Michelle/Anna had it meant fewer resources for him, someone who’s needs were already not being met. 

[BensAllergies]

No parent should have to consider separating their minor children but unfortunately it’s reality. I know that it might be my reality one day. I was reminded of that ugly truth just a few days ago. It broke my heart and I cried myself to sleep. But then the next day I called my son’s therapist and emailed his pediatrician for help.

Michelle could have helped her son. She chose not to.

[sixcatatty]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

And years from then Mom will wonder why her daughter went no contact with her. It’s a mystery!

Pretty much my life until I left at 16.

[neuroticcat]

I think Michelle using the heart over her name even in this instance is from the years of “celebrity” signings. In delusional reality land, that’s her book signing famous signature so would need to be here as well.

I also wonder if she even read/listened to/ has any idea of the allegations. This is not an excuse for her behavior just a speculation that she is willfully remaining in the dark and not Ravi g reality, and the infantilization of women in the cult permits it. I know Anna sat through testimony and,unless she dissociated, it had to have registered  she heard, but I could totally see a super-fundie relying on her headship to filter it so she could stay pure in her thoughts or whatever. 
 

Even Josh, if the one letter can be believed just says: I didn’t do what they said I did. Sometimes people refuse to believe what they feel their “enemies” are saying about those they are loyal to and just triple down into denial.

[nellautumngirl]

That talk about bodily autonomy is interesting. I still remember being hugged and kissed by people I didn't know very well. No one asked a child what they were comfortable with, and this was not long ago in the 90s. Super interesting that it is being discussed now! If I have children, I would not force them to smile, hug, kiss or anything. They have preferences just like adults and also, children are children. They are not always going to be polite or well-behaved. They are children and that's a good thing. They will learn soon enough

[EmCatlyn]

17 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

I don’t think there is any way Josh has that kind of money. JB is supplying the cash and using Josh to deliver it 

Yeah, but the question is, why?  I don’t see JB shelling out that kind of money without good reason.

[EmCatlyn]

13 hours ago, Milly-Molly-Mandy said:

I'm thinking 6-10 years. Unfortunately 20 years does not seem likely from what I have read. Hope I'm proved wrong. 

We don’t know how unusual the recommendation of the maximum sentence by the folks who did Josh’s assessment is.  If most first-time offenders get similar evaluation results and max sentence recommendations, probably Josh will get 5 or 6 years.  However, if he came out as significantly worse than other offenders, the judge might go for 10 or 12 or maybe even 15 years.  We can hope anyway.   I do think it’s unlikely he will get the full 20 years because it is a first offense.

[AussieKrissy]

8 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I think Michelle using the heart over her name even in this instance is from the years of “celebrity” signings. In delusional reality land, that’s her book signing famous signature so would need to be here as well.I also wonder i

Oh I have her signature somewhere, I have friend/s loosely associated with their Aussie branch and she organised a signed book as a ironic gift. I do think it had the heart. I think I looked at it once and put it in a drawer. 

[BernRul]

I can't imagine getting pleasure  from the specific type of abuse Josh sought out without hating children, at least to some extent. I read the prosecution's documents, which goes into graphic details to argue (successfully imo), that Josh is  sadistic and should get 30 years to life, but because the max is 20 years they will settle for asking for that. 

I think Josh will get more than 5 since that's what the defense asked for. Also, he wouldn't be punished exactly for not taking a plea so much as he's not being rewarded. I hope he gets the full 20 no matter how realistic is is, but will be satisfied with 12 to 15.

Also on the subject of prison abolition, I like the idea of UBI, expanding education and psychological services, etc. I think that can make it a reality for many economic/inequality based crimes. But I don't think that will work for sexual abuse, because that is not based on socio economics, and rape is so widespread that it isn't simply a mental health issue. Rape culture is so pervasive. It comes from so many factors, like men's entitlement to sex, men's lack of empathy and social intelligence towards woman and children, the objectification and dehumanization of women, the prevalence of sadistic porn and CSAM online, etc. I think those issues cannot be solved so easily. Its embedded in the culture. So I do think rapists, pedophiles, and serial killers should be put in prison until those issues can be solved (and I don't know if they ever can be). 

[Cam]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

 

Also on the subject of prison abolition, I like the idea of UBI, expanding education and psychological services, etc. I think that can make it a reality for many economic/inequality based crimes. But I don't think that will work for sexual abuse, because that is not based on socio economics, and rape is so widespread that it isn't simply a mental health issue. Rape culture is so pervasive. It comes from so many factors, like men's entitlement to sex, men's lack of empathy and social intelligence towards woman and children, the objectification and dehumanization of women, the prevalence of sadistic porn and CSAM online, etc. I think those issues cannot be solved so easily. Its embedded in the culture. So I do think rapists, pedophiles, and serial killers should be put in prison until those issues can be solved (and I don't know if they ever can be). 

It’s hard to even read these truths, but this is very well written.

[Four is Enough]

2 hours ago, BernRul said:

I can't imagine getting pleasure  from the specific type of abuse Josh sought out without hating children, at least to some extent.  

May be a trigger: 

 

 

 

Josh may not hate children at all. Rather, he may see the things depicted in these videos as "loving" and "initiating an innocent"... there is probably some sort of "purity" bullshit wrapped up in his mindset.

[BernRul]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

May be a trigger: 

 

 

 

Josh may not hate children at all. Rather, he may see the things depicted in these videos as "loving" and "initiating an innocent"... there is probably some sort of "purity" bullshit wrapped up in his mindset.

Also might be a trigger:

Spoiler

I do agree that many pedophiles view it that way. I've read some of their mental gymnastics justifying it that way. I think that's what pedos like Michael Jackson convince themselves is true. But the stuff Josh viewed according to the prosecution's documents gose way, way beyond that. It is not "loving" or "initiating an innocent." It is very much about causing harm. 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by BernRul

[Mela99]

Yeah, but the question is, why?  I don’t see JB shelling out that kind of money without good reason.

I think it’s nothing more than his ego at this point. Lord High and Mighty St Jim Blob cannot believe that he is not a martyr and a saint and persecuted by the world.

He’s the human equivalent of a raccoon defending an empty, greasy pizza box. You can’t tell them that nobody wants what they’re selling.

[anjulibai]

9 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, but the question is, why?  I don’t see JB shelling out that kind of money without good reason.

Someone said above, it may have been a payment for services disguised as a donation in order to avoid taxes. It makes the most sense to me, especially since this widow didn't write a letter: you'd think someone that had been generously given $2k a month with no strings attached would be willing to vouch for the person that gave it to her. 

[Jackie3]

21 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Do you think Josh despises children? Piss him off? Like by the time he was an adult he could no longer stand the notion of “another kid’? 

 

I think if he despised children he would have found a way to avoid having seven of them. A little less "joyful fellowship" with Anna, perhaps. 

Most likely, he has no idea why he is what he is. Does anyone ever sets out to have deviant, illegal, disgusting desires? He's got them, he lacks the insight to know why he does, and he lacked the moral fibre and discipline to resist those desires. 

 

2 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

Josh may not hate children at all. Rather, he may see the things depicted in these videos as "loving" and "initiating an innocent"... there is probably some sort of "purity" bullshit wrapped up in his mindset.

No, it's not like that. The description of the videos is not like that at all. It's horrendous. If you can tolerate it, the descriptions are in the prosecution's sentencing guidelines. You will see it's something very different than that.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Jackie3

[Father Son Holy Goat]

3 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

May be a trigger: 

 

 

 

Josh may not hate children at all. Rather, he may see the things depicted in these videos as "loving" and "initiating an innocent"... there is probably some sort of "purity" bullshit wrapped up in his mindset.

 

2 hours ago, BernRul said:

Also might be a trigger:

  Hide contents

I do agree that many pedophiles view it that way. I've read some of their mental gymnastics justifying it that way. I think that's what pedos like Michael Jackson convince themselves is true. But the stuff Josh viewed according to the prosecution's documents gose way, way beyond that. It is not "loving" or "initiating an innocent." It is very much about causing harm. 

 

 

Do pedophiles actually think like this? I was sexually abused as a kid- could my abuser think of it as an initiation?

[anjulibai]

2 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

 

Do pedophiles actually think like this? I was sexually abused as a kid- could my abuser think of it as an initiation?

Some do. Some think the child enjoys it and it's mutual. Some blame the child for it.

They find ways to twist it in their minds so that they aren't the bad guy. I'm sure Josh has done the same. 

I'm sorry for what happened to you, by the way. 

[Tatar-tot]

6 hours ago, BernRul said:

I can't imagine getting pleasure  from the specific type of abuse Josh sought out without hating children, at least to some extent. I read the prosecution's documents, which goes into graphic details to argue (successfully imo), that Josh is  sadistic and should get 30 years to life, but because the max is 20 years they will settle for asking for that. 

I think Josh will get more than 5 since that's what the defense asked for. Also, he wouldn't be punished exactly for not taking a plea so much as he's not being rewarded. I hope he gets the full 20 no matter how realistic is is, but will be satisfied with 12 to 15.

Also on the subject of prison abolition, I like the idea of UBI, expanding education and psychological services, etc. I think that can make it a reality for many economic/inequality based crimes. But I don't think that will work for sexual abuse, because that is not based on socio economics, and rape is so widespread that it isn't simply a mental health issue. Rape culture is so pervasive. It comes from so many factors, like men's entitlement to sex, men's lack of empathy and social intelligence towards woman and children, the objectification and dehumanization of women, the prevalence of sadistic porn and CSAM online, etc. I think those issues cannot be solved so easily. Its embedded in the culture. So I do think rapists, pedophiles, and serial killers should be put in prison until those issues can be solved (and I don't know if they ever can be). 

My understanding is pre-trial he was offered 10 years and refused.  I am hoping for 20 since he will serve 85% and bring the sentence down to 17.  Josh is the devil 👿 in sheep 🐑 clothing.  He needs to be locked 🔒 up for a long time.  
 

And for Michele:  Kiss my ❤️.

[Dandruff]

1 hour ago, anjulibai said:

Some think the child enjoys it and it's mutual. Some blame the child for it.

I believe, in Josh's case, that it was primarily about witnessing submission - a concept central to his upbringing.

[Giraffe]

1 hour ago, Tatar-tot said:

My understanding is pre-trial he was offered 10 years and refused.

This was never confirmed, only speculated.