(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[feministxtian]

I wonder how many times he's downloaded the CSAM without being caught. This was not a one time deal. 

[Cam]

Yes, yes, I understand that a criminal mind differs from a rational one. That’s why I used the phrase “my younger, idolized view of the world.”

I’s older now. Eyes older now, too.

Heck, in my earliest thoughts about the law, court system and prison, I simply thought ANYONE who murdered another person went to prison FOR LIFE. Never to experience freedom again outside those prison walls. Lock the door and throw away the key. As I gradually got older and more educated, it took awhile to get over how incredulous I felt about how untrue this actually was. Shortened sentences, early release for good behavior, let out on a technicality, reduced charges, and other reasons not everyone was jailed forever…yeah, life’s not fair.

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Cam

[JermajestyDuggar]

I just have to say that Anna’s bringing up Clark Wilson’s family is sort of ironic. Since his son was drunk last year and made a video talking about Josh and it was not a glowing review by any means. He then died in a motorcycle crash later on in the year but his video may still be online. 

[Antimony]

34 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I bet they would love to believe that Josh is sitting around being so pure and holy that fellow prisoners just look at him and know he did no wrong. 

If there's a grain of truth in here, and most lies have them, I believe that he probably was getting yelled at or harassed. That tracks for me, because we know that nobody in prison is kind to people with child abuse charges. It's absolutely believable.

But, I think it's very possible that the "apology" and inmates claiming they believe he's innocent is them mocking him and he's either too cocky or too socially inept to tell when he's being mocked in this manner. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

"My tender-hearted son Joshua James, known in some circles as The Cracker Sweeping Sex Pest, is a good and most Godly man who each day purposes to better know both the Lord and grieving widow ladies.  Please let him come home in five years.  He is so good at cleaning things, and there is so much cleaning that needs to be done."

You cannot make up shit like these letters to the court.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

I want to say that giving money doesn’t make you a good person. A great example? Go watch the movie Bernie starring Jack Black. It’s based on a real guy named Bernie who killed an elderly friend for her money and then donated lots of money to people in need. He was still a fucking murderer! Just like Josh is still a fucking pervert. It’s not like donating money automatically makes you a good person. I can think of a lot of assholes who donate millions. 
 

Edited May 12, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I want to say that giving money doesn’t make you a good person. A great example? Go watch the movie Bernie starring Jack Black. It’s based on a real guy named Bernie who killed an elderly friend for her money and then donated lots of money to people in need. He was still a fucking murderer! Just like Josh is still a fucking pervert. It’s not like donating money automatically makes you a good person. I can think of a lot of assholes who donate millions. 
 

I said this elsewhere, Hitler was kind to animals..... there you go. 

[SassyPants]

53 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I had to chime in when I saw that last line. Two days ago, there was an incident at a bank not more than 3 miles from my house. Incident because it wasn't a robbery. A man went into the bank and took  hostages. He told them they weren't going to be hurt and he wasn't there to rob the bank. Speaking to one of the women, he said he was tired, alone and done with life. He tried everything and nothing helped. He could have easily have shot up the entire room of people, but he let them go. Swat team took his life when he was exiting the bank. It tells you a lot about the mental health crisis in this country, the US. 

There are bad people in jails that deserve to be there and there are people who are mentally ill. Not all of those should be out but maybe with the right help, they might not be in jail. 

 

The crime is how no one has been able to figure out how to compassionately and adequately treat the mentally ill without trampling on their rights to be or to not be treated. It’s been close to 40 years since the thoughts changed from mental health facilities and forced treatment is inhumane to what has morphed to our present state of no one gives a rip about the mentally ill. This is the real crime, and the cynical part of me believes the changes were made all in the name of $$$$ and not in what’s best for human beings and society.

Edited May 12, 2022 by SassyPants

[Xan]

2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I want to say that giving money doesn’t make you a good person. A great example? Go watch the movie Bernie starring Jack Black. It’s based on a real guy named Bernie who killed an elderly friend for her money and then donated lots of money to people in need. He was still a fucking murderer! Just like Josh is still a fucking pervert. It’s not like donating money automatically makes you a good person. I can think of a lot of assholes who donate millions. 
 

And I somehow sense that Jim Bob told him charitable donations like that could be used to offset his taxes.  JB never did anything that didn't help his bottom line.  There must have been major money coming in for Josh to decide to give some away.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’m always amazed at how black and white thinking can be when it comes to people doing horrible things. Serial killers can be decent fathers. There are children of serial killers who will flat out tell you their dad was good to them when they were growing up. People can be many things! They can be killers, charitable donors, fathers who are always there for their kids, and animal lovers all in one person! People are fucking complicated beings. Just because they’ve done good things in their lives doesn’t mean they shouldn’t go to prison for harming others. I’m saying this because I think Anna can’t see her husband as both a supportive dad and husband and a CSA user. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[anjulibai]

I don't believe Josh really gave $2000 a month away. It probably came from elsewhere, but not his pocket book.

[libgirl2]

23 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m always amazed at how black and white thinking can be when it comes to people doing horrible things. Serial killers can be decent fathers. There are children of serial killers who will flat out tell you their dad was good to them when they were growing up. People can be many things! They can be killers, charitable donors, fathers who are always there for their kids, and animal lovers all in one person! People are fucking complicated beings. Just because they’ve done good things in their lives doesn’t mean they shouldn’t go to prison for harming others. I’m saying this because I think Anna can’t see her husband as both a supportive dad and husband and a CSA user. 

I agree that they can be good in certain roles like a husband or a friend but I get a feeling most of that letter is made up or he was pushed into some of that by JB or to make himself look good. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

There are narcissistic donors. They donate not because they want the world to be a better place. They donate for the attention they get. They want people to fawn all over them and celebrate their mere existence. They want the constant back pats. They are the people who would never donate unless they were publicly recognized for it. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[Alisamer]

8 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

I don't believe Josh really gave $2000 a month away. It probably came from elsewhere, but not his pocket book.

I agree. That is a LOT of money for most people. Especially single-income families with way too many children. I can go sit in a car lot and surf the internet all day (without doing anything illegal or immoral) if somebody wants to pay me enough to donate that much to anything!

[Bluebirdbluebell]

This is a new level of sick. I kind of understood why they tried to hire Josh the best lawyer to prove his possible innocence, like maybe they didn't understand the level of innocence. But this goes past plausible deniability. These people are evil! 

I've never heard of the Burrisses before.  Who is this Burriss and why is he defending Josh?

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I just have to say that Anna’s bringing up Clark Wilson’s family is sort of ironic. Since his son was drunk last year and made a video talking about Josh and it was not a glowing review by any means. He then died in a motorcycle crash later on in the year but his video may still be online. 

Ironic isn't really the word I would use. It's unjust and creepy. I wonder if Clark's wife agreed to this before and how much she was paid to stay that, beyond the 2000 a month.

One more important point: Josh and his family (Anna and Ms) did an ad for a local fishing store after the show was cancelled and Joshgates I and II. It was their testimony. It's another example of Josh wanting to be in the public eye.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

This is a new level of sick. I kind of understood why they tried to hire Josh the best lawyer to prove his possible innocence, like maybe they didn't understand the level of innocence. But this goes past plausible deniability. These people are evil! 

I've never heard of the Burgesses before.  Why is this Burgess and why is he defending Josh?

Ironic isn't really the word I would use. It's unjust and creepy. I wonder if Clark's wife agreed to this before and how much she was paid to stay that, beyond the 2000 a month.

One more important point: Josh and his family (Anna and Ms) did an ad for a local fishing store. It was their testimony. It's another example of Josh wanting to be in the public eye.

I saw it posted that  Reddit is reporting that the two Burgess neighbors recently bought property from JB very cheaply. Pay off? 

[Antimony]

Okay, so I was trying to think about this strategically because it is odd that letters from siblings and Jim Bob are absent. So, I went to the Google and was reminded that you can only submit a finite number of letters. There's no rule, but a Judge can only humanly read so many so Justin Gelfand probably picked the ones he thought were best. Some sites suggest six. Josh has ten. 

1. These were the best???
2. Maybe this is why Jim Bob's is conspicuously absent, because Gelfand knows better to hand Judge Brooks a letter from the man who sassed him from the witness stand. 
3. Perhaps Gelfand also feels that it is strategic to not submit any letters from siblings because we wouldn't want to remind Brooks of Bobye's testimony in the Defense documents more than we have to. 
4. Maybe some siblings did write letters but the SOTDRT energy was so palpable that even Gelfand was like, "We can't use this, bro."

Guessing on how effective these will be for Brooks...hm. I'm not suspecting much. Michelle let too much Gothard diction into hers. It's not relatable to read. If Brooks were just to average both requests, we could expect about 12 years. It is unlikely, in my opinion, that these letters will hold much weight but it may be the case that Brooks does waive the computer enhancement. I suspect he will accept the Government's suggestion for nature of violence enhancements, but the number of images enhancement is really up in the air because that seems to be a disagreement of key facts from both parties. 

[sixcatatty]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:50 PM, zee_four said:

There's a reason jury selection can be a long, arduous process in high stakes/well publicized cases. I think for the theater shooting, jury selection took weeks. It was difficult to find people who weren't some how impacted by the shootings, whether it was having a friend there that night, working with a victim or victim's family, having connections to the first responders or hospital staff who were there that night, etc. Even after a lengthy and deliberated process they still picked a juror who had been a Columbine student who was on campus during the shooting back in 1999- worse his prom date had been killed. Aurora is a massive inner ring suburb that is sandwiched next to Denver and the othrler burbs and is growing massively with new developments spreading East across open prairie and it was still hard.

It's not quite like the TV shows make it out to be, but the prosecution and defense are allowed so many "vetoes" so to speak, depending on the jurisdiction.

But unless there's been clear jury tampering or something, a judge can't overule a jury, the right to trial by jury is a cornerstone of the common law system. In most jurisdictions for a criminal trial, the defendant can choose a trial by jury or a bench trial (trial by judge). Judges have a role in sentencing with a trial by jury but they can't overule a jury verdict. In the rather limited instances of jury tampering in reality compared to what Hollywood shows, the defendant doesn't get off or have a judge decide instead, there's  a mistrial meaning there will be a whole new trial.

His lawyers like most private attorneys who are being paid by people who still insist on innocence or are paying because they have enough money to be willing to try every single possible trick no matter how unlikely, of course file appeals on every tiny thing no matter how minisculely related or likely. Appeals are incredibly common. What people don't understand is that it is incredibly rare for an appeal to be successful. Appeals go to the closest appellate court made up of? More judges. The same people defense attorneys are often appealing against,  other judges in the same area who have been trial judges and likely know the judge in question. In my area, with my experience, its a continuation of the old boys club. My dad was a federal trial attorney after being part of JAG for decades and in his experience judges support judges. In some jurisdictions there might be less incestuousness so to speak, but again real life trials aren't like TV. A very serious and blatant legal error has to be made for an appeal to be granted and again if that happens, it takes years and often resorts in voiding the original trial so a mistrial. You dont just get off innocent. 

I'd imagine that the appeals wil ll mostly focus on the ruling to allow previous allegations of behavior to be allowed in, but the Duggar own behaviors, admitting it on national television along other things, really undercut any attempt to claim of supposed assumption of innocence since there were never criminal charges. 

Oh and the feds are significantly less likely for appellate divisions to even consider on appeals. They dot their Is and cross their Ts legally. Remember it doesn't matter what people think or feel is "right" or "wrong" or "legal" its the individual statutes and case law that matters. And the Feds don't fuck around with that. 

EDIT Just wanted to say most of this was replying to parts of other comments not directly to @Antimony who knows their legal shit way more than myself. 

I do criminal appeals for a living. Our win rate is about 30% and that's better than most of the country. In probably 30% of my cases, opening the record and readign the indictment is the perfect amount of due process because there is no harmful constitutional violation. Here in Kentucky, however, all criminal defendants are guaranteed one appeal as of right under Section 7 of the Kentucky Constitution.

[shesinsane]

4 hours ago, Cam said:

Not only that, but after the molestations were revealed, the Ashley Madison scandal and the cancellation of 19KAC—that whole epic fall from grace—wasn’t there a concerted effort to try to somehow rehabilitate Josh’s image so he could eventually be integrated and accepted back into the Counting On series? 

That was mostly the camera crew and TLC's visual effects staff because they got tired of shooting around Josh and adding solar flare over his face whenever they couldn't crop him out of the video. 😉

(😉 = sarcasm)

[hoipolloi]

At best, Michelle & Anna are monumentally stupid. I donʻt even want to think of the worst case.

Neither one should be allowed to supervise minor children by themselves.

 

[SassyPants]

I would not be surprised to find that any money donated by anyone in the Duggar family circulated back to JB Duggar. These folks are born takers, not givers.

[Giraffe]

19 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I would not be surprised to find that any money donated by anyone in the Duggar family circulated back to JB Duggar. These folks are born takers, not givers.

I was thinking that, too. No way would Josh willingly give anything to someone, let alone $2000 a month. 
 

Those character statements are sickening and repulsive. 

[SassyPants]

Where would he even get an extra $2,000/month? If he had that kind of money why wouldn’t he have his own home and business (far away from JB’s controlling ways)? How much could a small, used car lot make, especially when there are more than 1 in the same area and family? Unless they were laundering money…we’ve all watched Breaking Bad and Ozarks-

[Cheetah]

44 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Where would he even get an extra $2,000/month? If he had that kind of money why wouldn’t he have his own home and business (far away from JB’s controlling ways)? How much could a small, used car lot make, especially when there are more than 1 in the same area and family? Unless they were laundering money…we’ve all watched Breaking Bad and Ozarks-

Total Internet Speculation Bus time here ... isn't Mrs Query a widow and one of the Query daughters was helping homeschool the Duggar kids?  You could totally say the daughter was volunteering her time and meanwhile Josh is donating money to her mother out of the goodness of his heart to basically pay her under the table rather than having to have any of that taxed.  Just a thought.  

[caitrona]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Where would he even get an extra $2,000/month? If he had that kind of money why wouldn’t he have his own home and business (far away from JB’s controlling ways)? How much could a small, used car lot make, especially when there are more than 1 in the same area and family? Unless they were laundering money…we’ve all watched Breaking Bad and Ozarks-

Yeah, if I was the judge I'd be telling the defense "if you want me to take this into account, I'ma need receipts to confirm this 'generosity', especially while CSSP (cracker sweeping sex pest) has his family living in a goddamn warehouse."