(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[SorenaJ]

But it was kinda funny that he said it! 

Nobody: 

Absolutely nobody: 

Josh not-so-bright Duggar: Has anyone been downloading CSAM?!

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 5/3/2022 at 6:04 PM, myusername said:

Oh..... There's sex. For sure.

Just not the kind he prefers.

Would there be pornography floating around, specifically the kind he does prefer?

[Sullie06]

I think Josh is probably in a state of disbelief still that he even got convicted. I do think that will change when he gets sentenced and lands in his more permanent placement. As for his time in prison, he will likely be a model inmate, as sex offenders usually are from my experience. I do think he will get a prison job, be that guy who tries to friend everyone but nobody actually likes, a lot of ass kissing towards the COs.

On the bedroom talk. When I was a kid my parents bedroom was always SPOTLESS. My Dad has undiagnosed OCD and he took that task on all his own. He prefers we don't do the cleaning because nobody can to it to his standards. I remember being able to go in our parents bedroom as a kid. As for my current situation we have a pretty open door policy. Plus for some reason our 6 year old prefers to sleep on our floor instead of her bed. We can't get her to stop, She sneaks in at some point in the night and I wake up and she just sleeping on the floor. 

[Dandruff]

13 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Would it have made a meaningful difference if he hadn’t said it? I thought it was the cherry on top that he did but the other evidence spoke for itself. 

I don't think it would have made a meaningful difference, but do think he's acutely aware he helped the prosecution.  I imagine both his attorneys and JB have let him know it, and that it's bothering him quite a bit.

[SPHASH]

Federal prison may nor be so great 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/skinheads-allegedly-killed-son-prison-government-accountable-rcna26907

In early March 2020, an ambulance delivered Matthew Phillips, a federal inmate in western Illinois, to a hospital in Iowa, where he clung to life battered beyond recognition. A prison chaplain had summoned his parents in Texas to his bedside.

“Are you sure this is my son?” Jeff Phillips said he asked the prison guards inside the room. But as he peered closer, he glimpsed the Star of David tattoo inked over his son’s heart.

Jeff Phillips said he would later learn from Matthew Phillips’ medical records that he had been stomped repeatedly in the face before blacking out, according to prison staff. He was beaten so viciously that doctors had to perform a craniectomy on the 31-year-old and remove a potato-shaped chunk of his skull to control the bleeding.

He died three days later, the result of blunt force trauma.

[quiversR4hunting]

8 hours ago, Sullie06 said:

As for my current situation we have a pretty open door policy. Plus for some reason our 6 year old prefers to sleep on our floor instead of her bed. We can't get her to stop, She sneaks in at some point in the night and I wake up and she just sleeping on the floor. 

All 3 of my daughters went through this phase but they wanted to be in bed with their dad and I and I would be kicked all night or nearly pushed out of bed. So I let them know they could come in anytime but they could sleep beside one of us on the floor and I would have blankets and a pullow sitting there for whenever they needed it. My youngest did this the longest that I actually made her a little foam pad that pushed under the bed. Since I've been single, she has done it less but now I sometimes just let her crawl in bed with me sometimes I can tuck her back in her own bed. (we all have vivid dreams, so nightmares are especially bad.) I think my youngest reverted back because she was 7 1/2  when we separated. 

There is hope for you, my teens no longer come in 😁

[Jana814]

I use to sleep in the bed with my parents. Not often maybe once a month. I was lucky because I was the type of kid that  6 out of 7 nights a week I could fall asleep quickly.  As an adult I can usually fall asleep easily. Just wish I could still fall asleep anywhere like when I was a kid. Now I need to be in a dark room & the room needs to be dark before I get into the room. 

[BlondeAgent007]

So somehow I ended up searching "duggar" on urban dictionary, and I am so glad I did:

duggar

(verb) - to assault or abuse a person, especially a woman or child sexually

Verbified after the announcement of the Duggar family that their son molested his sisters.

"A friend told me Josh admitted that he duggared his sister."
"I was duggared by my brother."

 

Duggaring

the act of loudly crying and pointing to others for "sins" (homosexuality, trans, etc) while personally committing moral atrocities yourself (pedophilia, covering up pedophilia or defending it, animal cruelty, etc).

Sean Toon was Duggaring kids at a pool in Mckinney, Texas.

by Lady Chuck June 11, 2015

 

Duggaring

Committing a criminal act then quietly riding out the statute of limitations to avoid prosecution.

Josh got away with his molestation of five girls by duggaring.

by Michael-SC June 27, 2015

[Smee]

20 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Would there be pornography floating around, specifically the kind he does prefer?

If the kind he prefers is sexual abuse images of kids then I doubt it. If it’s videos (of anything) probably not. If it’s photographs of women being sexually abused or just of genitalia & lingerie then maybe.

Use your brain bleach if you don’t have aphantasia like me:

Spoiler

Josh is all about the taboo and being dominant/in power. He might secretly like the idea of a prison boyfriend, since gay sex would be “secret” and “sinful” but only if he’s the top because you know he’d hate the idea of being submissive to anybody even just in visual metaphor. I just hope he doesn’t rape anybody in there.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Smee

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I hope Josh neither gets raped in prison or rapes someone. But given that at least one of those things has happened I don’t know that my hope will come to fruition.

LOL, the last two times I came into this thread what was the ad for? Pest control.

[Alisamer]

13 hours ago, Jana814 said:

I use to sleep in the bed with my parents. Not often maybe once a month. I was lucky because I was the type of kid that  6 out of 7 nights a week I could fall asleep quickly.  As an adult I can usually fall asleep easily. Just wish I could still fall asleep anywhere like when I was a kid. Now I need to be in a dark room & the room needs to be dark before I get into the room. 

I don't remember ever sleeping in bed with my parents so if I did it was while I was too young to remember. I always had my own room, which was nice. 

For ages and ages I could ONLY fall asleep in a very dark room with some sort of white noise going on. And if I want to actually "go to bed" for actual sleep, I pretty much have to do the same. But... I've discovered as I get older I'm getting back to being able to sleep a bit more easily in some cases. If I'm tired and comfy? I might just drift off and sleep for hours. Lights on, video playing, etc. Also now I have a cat who sleeps in my bed, and the first couple nights I couldn't sleep with him there, but now once I'm arranged so I'm not going to accidentally kick him it's no problem. 

It does help this cat is super polite about sleeping. He stays by my feet all night - he'll get up once or twice to go have a snack or use the litter box, but that's it. He seems to understand sleeping time. Then, once he's sure I'm awake in the morning, he comes up to my head and snuggles in while the alarm is snoozed. If we've gotten arranged so he's not lying on my nose or tickling me with his whiskers I even fall back asleep sometimes. He's a sweetie. 

[feministxtian]

28 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Also now I have a cat who sleeps in my bed, and the first couple nights I couldn't sleep with him there, but now once I'm arranged so I'm not going to accidentally kick him it's no problem. 

My cats sleep on either side of my head. Eventually one will move down to the foot of the bed and the other one will stay at my head. That one will tap on my head when my alarm goes off. If I don't get up, he taps again with a little claw. Once I'm reasonably awake, he needs super loves. So, I comply because if I don't he becomes like an out of control toddler. 

[Antimony]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:00 AM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Would it have made a meaningful difference if he hadn’t said it? I thought it was the cherry on top that he did but the other evidence spoke for itself. 

I think this is an interesting question! Jury deliberations are very mysterious and you almost never hear about why unless a journalist can track a jury member down and get them to do an interview. And, if the case is high profile enough to want to do this, most jurors would prefer to stay anonymous. I've heard (via this path exactly) that a single juror can totally change the route of the decision and hijack things. Get one strong personality in there and you can derail a lot of reasonable thinking. (Also, I will never be seated on a jury, won't happen, no way.)

I think we heard the jury asked for a transcript excerpt from the officer's testimony, which indicates to me that the jury was talking about it and that it came up in deliberation. It's possible say, Juror #11 wasn't sure but Juror #6 was stuck on this testimony and was bringing it up as part of their argument.  I think the fact they asked for it (IIRC) is evidence that it might have mattered to at least one juror.  

I also think the actual computer forensics matter more but juries...so mysterious. I also think, although the jury cannot admit this, that there could have still be prejudicial value in admitting the Holt testimony. It's absolutely not supposed to be how that works, but it is so, so, so, so tempting as an average person (me, us) to deal out justice for a past evil that was never addressed. I also think it had more evidentiary than prejudicial value, but I think that was key if they had jurors with lower computer knowledge. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

7 hours ago, feministxtian said:

My cats sleep on either side of my head. Eventually one will move down to the foot of the bed and the other one will stay at my head. That one will tap on my head when my alarm goes off. If I don't get up, he taps again with a little claw. Once I'm reasonably awake, he needs super loves. So, I comply because if I don't he becomes like an out of control toddler. 

My cat is a bit of a princess. She sleeps spread out over 2 pillows, on top of a pillow top mattress. Sometimes she sleeps on her pregnancy pillow, yes it’s hers.

[AnywhereButHere]

I used to sleep in my parent’s bed as a young child whenever I had a nightmare. My mom changed her hair color and style frequently, and I think when I was about 7ish it was long and very dark. I had a nightmare, ran to their room, and saw her hair fanned out over her face and pillow. For some reason that freaked me the hell out, so I noped right back out of there and back to my own bed. Self soothing for the win!

Our cat would usually always sleep around my feet. Basically, he’d lean on my leg (comfortable for both of us) until I fell asleep at which point he’d twist my legs into some sort of pretzel shape and sleep in between whatever shape he created (comfortable only to him). We have a king bed because we like our space. There’s my side of the bed and husband’s side of the bed. No encroachment allowed. One night, I was woken up by the sudden and violent entrance of an intruder in my space with the explanation of “I had to! He’s too warm!” A very confused me looked over husband’s back to see a very contented, bread loaf sized cat sleeping comfortably on one half of a king sized bed with two somewhat more than bread loaf sized humans sharing the other half. It was not a good night. Husband refused to disturb his majesty, so we had to wait until King George was done with his beauty rest. 🙄

[Jackie3]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:54 AM, Antimony said:

I think this is an interesting question! Jury deliberations are very mysterious and you almost never hear about why unless a journalist can track a jury member down and get them to do an interview.

Juries are going to abide by the law, as it's set out, or else they will be reversed on appeal. They cannot vote guilty because of  random statement and expect a higher court to allow it to stand. 

[gustava]

7 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Juries are going to abide by the law, as it's set out, or else they will be reversed on appeal. They cannot vote guilty because of  random statement and expect a higher court to allow it to stand. 

To be accurate, the jury doesn't get reversed; the judge does.  A jury can do what it wants to do; it's called "jury nullification."

[EmCatlyn]

11 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Juries are going to abide by the law, as it's set out, or else they will be reversed on appeal. They cannot vote guilty because of  random statement and expect a higher court to allow it to stand. 

Agreed, but in this case, the “random statement” may have influenced a juror (or two) to take the evidence more seriously.   By itself Josh’s question would not convict him, and if that was all the prosecution had, they would not have had a case.  But in addition to the evidence of the downloads and so forth, it may have had an impact.

[Sullie06]

On 5/5/2022 at 9:22 PM, quiversR4hunting said:

All 3 of my daughters went through this phase but they wanted to be in bed with their dad and I and I would be kicked all night or nearly pushed out of bed. So I let them know they could come in anytime but they could sleep beside one of us on the floor and I would have blankets and a pullow sitting there for whenever they needed it. My youngest did this the longest that I actually made her a little foam pad that pushed under the bed. Since I've been single, she has done it less but now I sometimes just let her crawl in bed with me sometimes I can tuck her back in her own bed. (we all have vivid dreams, so nightmares are especially bad.) I think my youngest reverted back because she was 7 1/2  when we separated. 

There is hope for you, my teens no longer come in 😁

It’s good to hear I’m not the only one. I also keep a blanket and pillow on the floor on my side for her. I keep trying to get her to stay in her room but it’s a no go

[Antimony]

On 5/8/2022 at 2:14 AM, Jackie3 said:

Juries are going to abide by the law, as it's set out, or else they will be reversed on appeal. They cannot vote guilty because of  random statement and expect a higher court to allow it to stand. 

Juries *cannot* make a wrong decision in the eyes of the law. The poster who mentioned jury nullification is absolutely right. They can only disregard jury instructions, which may be grounds for appeal, if they, for example, admitted to reading the news during the trial.

The reason any juror votes how they do is a unknowable and its absurd to think individual jurors haven't voted for more frivolous reasons -- racism, because they just didnt like the defendant despite exculpatory evidence, they have a personal bias, or because they wanted to get the hell out of the room. In this case, that Josh's utterance is admitted as evidence via testimony so it is a perfectly reasonable factor for a juror's decision. Juries have total discretion about how they weight each individual piece of evidence. 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Antimony

[Four is Enough]

When my youngest two came to us at 6 and 7, they would occasionally wake me up.. standing by the side of my bed, just watching . Occasionally they would lie on the floor by the side of my bed. They just wanted to make sure we were still there..

It is weird to wake up and find even a child just staring at you..

[Jackie3]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

Juries *cannot* make a wrong decision in the eyes of the law. The poster who mentioned jury nullification is absolutely right. They can only disregard jury instructions, which may be grounds for appeal, if they, for example, admitted to reading the news during the trial.

The reason any juror votes how they do is a unknowable and its absurd to think individual jurors haven't voted for more frivolous reasons -- racism, because they just didnt like the defendant despite exculpatory evidence, they have a personal bias, or because they wanted to get the hell out of the room. In this case, that Josh's utterance is admitted as evidence via testimony so it is a perfectly reasonable factor for a juror's decision. Juries have total discretion about how they weight each individual piece of evidence. 

 

Judges can certainly overturn a jury's verdict in a criminal case. They can do this in a civil case, too. It's called "Judgment Notwithstanding The Verdict."

 

[Antimony]

59 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Judges can certainly overturn a jury's verdict in a criminal case. They can do this in a civil case, too. It's called "Judgment Notwithstanding The Verdict."

 

JNOV does not apply here because the utterance is part of a sufficient body of evidence. It doesnt fall into any reasonable jury or insufficient evidence presented before the jury. Jury reasoning and deliberations are private and even if they weren't, JNOV wouldn't be appropriate here because the utterance is still evidence the jury can weight with their own opinion. 

The judge, nor us, have anyway of understanding a jury's decision with the exception of what materials they ask to review. 

It's not a secret that a judge can over rule a jury in *some* verdicts but the high weighting of a single piece of sworn testimony is not grounds to do so. 

(Also knowing what jury nullification is is a great way to get yourself excluded during voir dire. Almost certain, depending on how they ask their queries.)

[Alisamer]

23 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Agreed, but in this case, the “random statement” may have influenced a juror (or two) to take the evidence more seriously.   By itself Josh’s question would not convict him, and if that was all the prosecution had, they would not have had a case.  But in addition to the evidence of the downloads and so forth, it may have had an impact.

Jurors base their decisions on all sorts of things, it seems. But I can definitely see that statement heavily influencing the jury, because it says so much about Josh.

Here's Josh DUGGAR. Dad running for office, family was on TV, famous entirely for being super-strict religious bible thumpers while popping out kids like Pez. The family's claim to fame is the number of children, which is entirely based on their religious convictions which are what they are leaning on to keep themselves known and the $$ rolling in. Everyone who has ever seen an episode of their show or an interview with them knows they are Christian. Super-Christian. The Christianest. Better than all those other Christians and more Godly as well. They'll be happy to tell you how super Christian they are, and how their Godly children weren't allowed to even front hug their future spouses, much less talk privately with them, before the actual wedding. The Duggars are the purest, best, perfectest Christians in the world. They'll tell you all about how you're doing it wrong, while being sickly sweet about it and acting concerned about your soul.

Even people who have never seen anything about them will usually say "Duggar? Isn't that the super Christian family with the zillion kids?' if asked about them. They often haven't heard of the molestations, or the Ashley Madison thing, or anything else - that requires a little reading or paying attention. But they know the family is famous for being Christian and having tons of kids because they are Christian.

And here Josh is, talking to federal agents, and he unprompted brings up "child porn". 

How would a pure precious Duggar child even know such a thing existed? Even many of us here, who knew about the molestation, knew Josh was a dirtbag, knew he was not pure in any sense of the word, still didn't automatically jump to "child porn" when the car lot was raided. The molestations we knew about were when he was a teen. The Ashley Madison stuff was all with adult women. Many of us hoped, at least, that it was financial shenanigans. 

We weren't suprised when it was CSAM. But a person with just a casual passing knowledge of the Duggars probably would be surprised that "child porn" was the first thing that came out of Josh's mouth. 

I was surprised he said that. Because I thought he wasn't quite THAT stupid. Stupid, but not self-incriminatingly stupid.

I'm sure the jury didn't base their decision JUST on that statement, but I am sure they took it into account, because that's not something any innocent person would come up with. 

[AussieKrissy]

I am a scathing pessimist

My mind immediately to child porn when the lot got raided, I was sure of it.

Most prob the profession I am in, influencing it as well (prison system).