(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[Petronella]

40 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

She was an adorable high school cheerleader who was very popular who decided to hang with the HS unpopular religious fanatic.  Makes no sense why she wasn’t focused on heading to college to be a a Razorback or on the arm of the quarterback.  She has always left me scratching my head.

It is unexpected. But I can also see the draw of being with someone who thinks of big life questions and spiritual things. Being with someone who cares about morality and deep goodness can be comforting and feel like a better future bet than maybe friends who were more focused on superficial things, immediate things, casual things. Obviously, Jim Bob's morality had/has little depth and his religious slant was (is!) constricting and, well, awful. But at the start it *promised* wonderful stuff to her. If she wanted "deeper" stuff in life I can see how she *thought* it was a good idea at the time. I wonder what her family thought. Do we know?

A long time ago I had a crush on a guy at my church who ended up dating and then engaged to someone else. I was very jealous of course. Then I learned that he told her he was all into the "no birth control" thing and she broke the engagement. Good for her!!!!! I'm glad she noped out of that.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Tatar-tot said:

He then turned her into a breeding machine.  The entire JB-M relationship is beyond weird.

Agree with the latter.  But they did use BC in the beginning and decided together after their miscarriage  to forgo it and mainline the kool-aid.

I firmly believe Michelle had some kind of pregnancy "addiction" and she is a hoarder of babies.  I'm not saying JB was unhappy about it, but I've always felt Michelle is driving the train on much of this.  He may be the head but she's the neck that turns the head, as they say.

As for them getting together as teenagers sometimes when you meet someone whose serious emotional issues tie in nicely with your own it's easy to bond fast and hard.  It's not a conscious thing.  

 

[lilwriter85]

14 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Hi!

Same.  Good to "see ya"!  Hope you're well. 

Thanks. I've been well lately. Good to see you all again.

[nokidsmom]

On 12/4/2021 at 8:43 AM, Xan said:

Eventually, it seemed to occur to Jim Bob that maybe Josh had very strong urges and that he needed to get him married off as soon as possible.  How many families did he contact about future brides?  Were there many rejections before he settled on the Kellers?  And what was it?  Were they just fundie enough and just far away enough from Arkansas that he could get by with minimizing stories about Josh?  Were Mike and Suzette just clueless enough to believe him?  Well, that last one is an obvious yes.  I think JB told  them some story about curiosity and pornography and assured them that Josh had turned over a new leaf.  

Haven't finished this thread yet but wanted to comment on this. Learning of the molestations and now the CSAM case, it has solidified my belief that the Kellers were completely suckered by JB.  It was known that Josh had problems and we now know that the Holts, in the end, knew and were completely repulsed in spite of their relationship with the family.   There had to have been rumblings going around in their fundie social circles, there had to been fundie Daddies who decided no way would they want Joshley as a husband for their daughters.   And here's this family who is not in the local area and yes, I think Pa Keller in particular was clueless and willing to believe whatever JB told him, which was likely not anything close to full disclosure of Joshley's misdeeds.   See his Megyn Kelly interview:  "it was all taken care of".   Likely he assured Pa Keller of the same and Pa Keller took him at his word.

[Idlewild]

It’s hard to know what fuelled the dynamic for super breeding. All I can say for sure is that if you can’t remember some of them being sexually attacked by another of them, then you have too many.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 hours ago, Sops2 said:

I don't think their pastor supporting a paedophile  with a huge amount of evidence to his crime would go down very well with the congragtion of Fairpark Baptist. He has a narrow path to tread between supporting his sister in law and  distancing himself from such a vile abuser. 

I don't understand why he wants to appear to be a member of the legal team though. He knows when he steps out of the courtroom carrying the defense attorney's boxes the film crews will right there. It's just not a good look.

Aside from David, has any member of Anna's family been seen in or around the courthouse? Parents, siblings? 

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, St.Clara said:

Which means that you will hardly ever get to be in this situation. 🙂

While it is certainly a good idea to get an expert to help deal with problematic behaviour when it occurs it does not take an early education professional in order to notice it. It is usually very obvious. The parents in question typically choose not to see it, though, and usually resist acknowledging it even when we say something. I can only speculate on why that is. I try to refrain from judging it. (If there ever were a justification for calling in child protective services I /we would obviously do that immediately.)

Thank you for your kind words.

Former Social Worker and pre-school teacher here—-

It’s interesting though, or terrifying, that a very few children/people really DO seem to have that “bad seed” twist to them. There was a horrifying rape and murder of an 8 year old girl in my town - the culprit turned out to be her 15 year old neighbor. Who absolutely everyone described as a perfectly average teen boy. With a mom who was also described as perfectly average and loving. They lived in an arts apartment complex. The mom had friends, the boy had friends. He wasn’t known as a bully or for getting bullied. It’s a close living quarters, with people with mutual interests in art (classes, shows, it’s an affordable live/work space)a real community. Not remotely related to a cult or any sort of weird parenting. As far as I recall he did ok at school and the most stand out thing was he was seeming a little emo /angsty. Completely normal teen stuff. Yet he brutally raped and murdered a little neighbor girl in his apartment and hid the body in a trash dumpster. It’s terrifying. 
 

All that is to say — yes, obviously there are usually signs of something wrong. The horribly abusive cult Josh grew up in certainly hurt his chances of not constantly offending. But also there are some really sick/twisted/evil/damaged/badly wired people out there. I really think Josh is one of those. 

[Idlewild]

12 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I don't understand why he wants to appear to be a member of the legal team though. He knows when he steps out of the courtroom carrying the defense attorney's boxes the film crews will right there. It's just not a good look.

Aside from David, has any member of Anna's family been seen in or around the courthouse? Parents, siblings? 

Maybe like Mrs Spivey he wants to appear important? She seemed to think she had some sort of official duty there as JBs representative. David Waller probably wants us to know he’s not just there out of curiosity. 
When I was a lawyer in the days of paper files, I’d let anybody carry them, they weighed loads! 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Idlewild said:

Maybe like Mrs Spivey he wants to appear important? She seemed to think she had some sort of official duty there as JBs representative. David Waller probably wants us to know he’s not just there out of curiosity. 
When I was a lawyer in the days of paper files, I’d let anybody carry them, they weighed loads! 

Agreed,  He'll spin it to his flock as he was there as a spiritual advisor blah blah and they'll accept it because if they had the ability to think critically they wouldn't be tithing to Waller each week.

[livinginthelight]

It occurs to me that some people might want a reading list to learn more about abusive behavior and sociopathy. Maybe it should be a separate thread but I'll throw out a few recommendations and others can add to it.

Someone earlier mentioned Lundy Bancroft's EXCELLENT book, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men"  This book, in my mind, is such a great place to start. It helps people understand and identify abusive behavior. A must read, IMO.

Robert Hare's "Without Conscience: The disturbing world of psychopaths among us" is a great book about psychopathy. It's a little dated but that doesn't stop me from recommending it because it's so well written and educational.

In one of these books I read this interesting fact: The top three professions for psychopaths are 1) business CEO, 2) lawyer, 3) pastor

Another great book is George Simon's "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and dealing with manipulative people." This book talks a lot about covert aggression - the kind that makes you leave a conversation feeling terrible and wondering what just happened. Excellent in helping people identify this very subtle means of control.

Edited December 5, 2021 by livinginthelight

[detroitrockcity]

We have talked about what the jury has to endure and others in the gallery but I don’t think that we have mentioned the judge.  Can you IMAGINE being impartial and ensuring that the rule of law is being followed in this case?  My heart goes out to him.  If I was the judge- I don’t know if I COULD  be as impartial as he is.  But in doing so- helps to prevent an appeal.  

Edited December 5, 2021 by detroitrockcity
Darn autocorrect. Siri is drunk 🙄

[Jinderella]

All weekend to ponder... I'm way to privileged to have much sympathy for Anna not doing everything to protect her children, but regardless, this must be a very hard 2 weeks for her. And we already noticed that the only family member consistently sitting with her is Derick. Even if JB told everyone they were not supposed to show up, she must feel abandoned somewhere deep down. 

When Josh is in prison, and JB and his Duglings have washed their hands clean of him, don't you think she will start to wonder about the only one being beside her every day were not her parents, not her husband's parents, but the one that got away? Will that, not immediately but after some resentment about her situation undoubtedly starts to build, make a difference? 

[feministxtian]

9 hours ago, zee_four said:

I think you live near where my mom is now at Parker and Arapahoe Road!!! So absolutely I will let you know I plan on being back in Colorado this summer. I spent most of my time back home in Eagle County but I always am with my mom for a bit when I get there and before I leave since she's near the airport 🙂

Parker and Bronco's Parkway. Sort of behind that shopping center at Arapahoe and Parker, the one with the big Target. 

I'll send you my info in a DM, ok? 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, feministxtian said:

Parker and Bronco's Parkway. Sort of behind that shopping center at Arapahoe and Parker, the one with the big Target. 

I'll send you my info in a DM, ok? 

Can you guys please take your personal information private?  And you don't need to ask people publicly if you can PM them, you can just do it.  

[ifosterkittens]

12 hours ago, ElizaB said:

So why isn't she (Michelle) sitting at his trial? She has been covering for him for years. She has been making excuses for him for years. So the fact that she is not at his trial stuns me. 

I have two theories: 

1.) She knows that attending the trial will open up a can of worms for her. She knows she was wrong but doesn't want to confront it. By not going she can pretend all is well. 

2.) JB says no. We talk about Anna being submissive and Anna being stuck. Michelle is living in the exact same environment. She has to do what her headship says as well. Which also brings up the question- did Michelle ever really have any say in any of this? 

Both theories are possible, and I think your first theory is right. Michelle knows it is likely Josh did download and view the CSAM. She may not want to admit it out loud, but she knows Josh's actions in the past, and knows this is not out of character. She doesn't want to sit there and listen to the awful details. If she doesn't go maybe can pretend it is the same sin as viewing regular porn or whatever other lies she tells herself. 

Michelle may also feel she did her best as a mother because she followed her husband's lead. They sought church counsel, sent him away to dig a pond and reflect on his actions, essentially shunned him in their own house except when filming (when his head was shaved), he went to confess his crimes to the cop in hopes of scaring him straight, she may choose to believe she did everything she could. One thing I do believe is she probably devoted herself to prayer, and fasting (or modified fasting if pregnant/nursing, maybe denying herself her favorite foods if she couldn't do traditional fasting) all in hopes that would set Josh on the right path. 

Does Michelle feels the CSAM was in 2019 Josh was 31 at the time, and he is an adult and these crimes are on him, or on him and Anna? Maybe Michelle blames the devil. Maybe Michelle blames Anna for not being a good enough wife to keep his interests. 

I would not be surprised if Michelle is internally furious with Josh. Josh has brought so much bad publicity to their family, and she may perceive that as a bigger injustice than his actual crimes.

[hoipolloi]

24 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

In one of these books I read this interesting fact: The top three professions for psychopaths are 1) business CEO, 2) lawyer, 3) pastor

Somehow, this is not surprising. Look at some of FJ's major snarkees and many of them fall into one or more of these categories.

In fact, Doug Phillips hit the trifecta: he was a CEO of VFI/VFM, is a lawyer, and behaved as a de facto pastor (elder) for years at the former Boerne Christian Assembly.

[imokit]

1 minute ago, ifosterkittens said:

I would not be surprised if Michelle is internally furious with Josh. Josh has brought so much bad publicity to their family, and she may perceive that as a bigger injustice than his actual crimes.

Michelle is fully aware that Josh is why Michelle will never get any more vision forum mother of year awards.  After all Kelly Bates has the same number of kids and none of them have been arrested yet (and she still has her TV show).

[BensAllergies]

David Waller is currently preaching at his church. His topic is about the office of the deacon. When I joined the live broadcast he was saying that you can have a perfect house and perfect family but still have a child who goes astray. Then he cites Adam and Eve who had a child who murdered, and then Jesus who had a disciple who betrayed him.

Now he is talking about how the wife of a deacon should act (grave i.e. dignified, sober).

Having missed the beginning I thought it was an interesting topic if he has been sitting in on the trial. Is he trying to say that JB&M aren’t to blame for the way their son turned out? But then that would also be saying that Josh is guilty.

Edited December 5, 2021 by BensAllergies

[waltraute]

17 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

Both theories are possible, and I think your first theory is right. Michelle knows it is likely Josh did download and view the CSAM. She may not want to admit it out loud, but she knows Josh's actions in the past, and knows this is not out of character. She doesn't want to sit there and listen to the awful details. If she doesn't go maybe can pretend it is the same sin as viewing regular porn or whatever other lies she tells herself. 

Michelle may also feel she did her best as a mother because she followed her husband's lead. They sought church counsel, sent him away to dig a pond and reflect on his actions, essentially shunned him in their own house except when filming (when his head was shaved), he went to confess his crimes to the cop in hopes of scaring him straight, she may choose to believe she did everything she could. One thing I do believe is she probably devoted herself to prayer, and fasting (or modified fasting if pregnant/nursing, maybe denying herself her favorite foods if she couldn't do traditional fasting) all in hopes that would set Josh on the right path. 

Does Michelle feels the CSAM was in 2019 Josh was 31 at the time, and he is an adult and these crimes are on him, or on him and Anna? Maybe Michelle blames the devil. Maybe Michelle blames Anna for not being a good enough wife to keep his interests. 

I would not be surprised if Michelle is internally furious with Josh. Josh has brought so much bad publicity to their family, and she may perceive that as a bigger injustice than his actual crimes.

I think there is an even larger issue than just avoiding the reality that her son is a pedophile.

Having to look straight on at CSAM evidence in court means there's a good chance your conscious mind will acknowledge the horrific reality of it. I say, good chance, because I think some of them are sitting in court still with their blinders on.

CSA doesn't square with a just God, does it?  The inability to explain away harm done to children is why and how I finally released my belief in God, at least in the God that my childhood religion described. 'Satan' is not a satisfactory explanation. God is omnipotent, more powerful than Satan, and he couldn't find a workaround?

And even if, somehow, they are able to justify it in their minds, seeing and hearing graphic evidence must be jarring to their belief system. 

11 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

Is he trying to say that JB&M aren’t to blame for the way their son turned out? But then that would also be saying that Josh is guilty.

I really hope that this is what he is saying. Acknowledging Josh's guilt would be a huge first step for this family, especially for someone so closely tied with Anna. I doubt he would ever blame JB and Michelle, because their beliefs are largely the same, but I'll take admission of Josh's guilt as a win. 

[gustava]

25 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

David Waller is currently preaching at his church. His topic is about the office of the deacon. When I joined the live broadcast he was saying that you can have a perfect house and perfect family but still have a child who goes astray. Then he cites Adam and Eve who had a child who murdered, and then Jesus who had a disciple who betrayed him.

Now he is talking about how the wife of a deacon should act (grave i.e. dignified, sober).

Having missed the beginning I thought it was an interesting topic if he has been sitting in on the trial. Is he trying to say that JB&M aren’t to blame for the way their son turned out? But then that would also be saying that Josh is guilty.

Maybe the Pecan Thief should have kept going with the Bible:  Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

[DalmatianCat]

4 hours ago, imokit said:

David Wallers presence in the courtroom, makes me wonder (hope) that Pricilla and their kids are with Josh and the M's.  (I think his presence and thus knowledge of the details make him even more scummy then the rest of the cult and I'm surprised that a preacher is supporting a legal defence of child abuse).  I hope she's in the background supporting Anna and not still in Texas, but I don't know.

David Waller and Derick are both Anna’s BILs, but David is related slightly closer to her and Derick is related slightly closer to Josh. There’s not a lot “fair” in this situation, but until they give more direct statements on their positions, there’s no reason to assume that David is not there to just support Anna and not Josh, same as Derick. I don’t think Derick is necessarily there support to Anna (I’m guessing he’s there to support his wife by proxy and get first-hand info), but he is being polite and kind. Everyone has asked why no one is there to support Anna…maybe David is the Keller family representative. He can’t help the fact that Anna is hanging onto Josh in and out of the courtroom.

[nokidsmom]

23 hours ago, Xan said:

I tend to think that Jim Bob is paying for lawyers to keep Josh out of jail because he's afraid of what Josh might say.  You want a tell-all book?  Josh is the one who is the most likely to blab.  Josh is the firstborn and he knows most of the secrets.  Up until now, JB has been able to buy him off because Josh is lazy and felt trapped.  If he goes off to jail, the brakes are off.  He may or may not get training in jail but I doubt he'd return to Anna.  Yeah, divorce is a no-no for the Duggars but Josh has already been identified as a bad egg.  As Dickens said, "You can't stain a black coat." 

I agree with this.  JB is and always has been, more concerned with his family's "brand" and reputation as opposed to doing the right things for his family.  JB's financial support of his adult children is not helping them, it's about control over what they can and cannot do.   Derick himself has talked about this.  Joshley was kept on a particularly short lease because he's caused the most damage to the family brand and the lack of job/economic prospects as a result.

The lawyers are not there for supporting his son, they are for keeping Joshley out of jail because once Joshley disappears behind the prison doors, all control over the errant eldest son is completely lost.   Joshley can decide to do anything and there's nothing JB can do about it.  He's already had a taste of what loss of control will look like early last week when the judge did not find him credible after being forced to give testimony and after efforts trying to dodge it.  Joshley will be completely and totally out of JB's reach.

Also, I was always one of those who believed Joshley did not like his life, he did not want to have a bunch of kids, he wanted something different for himself even if he was too lazy or felt too trapped by his upbringing/reality TV world/fundie rules to do anything about it.   Going to jail might honestly be an out for him and I would not be at all surprised that he files for divorce while in jail.  In jail he has nothing left to lose and might have one thing to gain: freedom from going back to his previous life once he's out.  It's a hell of a way to gain one's freedom though but I always thought Joshley's life was a certain type of prison. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by nokidsmom

[Lovebug]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

It was known that Josh had problems and we now know that the Holts, in the end, knew and were completely repulsed in spite of their relationship with the family.  

Honestly though, how repulsed were the Holts? They had first hand knowledge of what was going on and still invited Josh to live in their home in hopes of rekindling his relationship with their daughter. Although I’m super thankful that they are coming forward now, I can’t help but wonder how much sooner they may have been able to stop the girls from being abused. 
 

And there will always be the WTAF were they thinking offering up their daughter more than once to Josh. Incredible…

Edited December 5, 2021 by Lovebug

[imokit]

The Holts knew that little girls were being molested.  They chose not to report it to the police or child protective services.  They did not act to protect the little girls.  

They then let a known abuser into their own house to live with their own little girls, putting even more girls at risk.

They are not as guilty as JB & M, but they are absolutely NOT innocent in this.

[nokidsmom]

15 minutes ago, Lovebug said:

Honestly though, how repulsed were the Holts? They had first hand knowledge of what was going on and still invited Josh to live in their home in hopes of rekindling his relationship with their daughter. Although I’m super thankful that they are coming forward now, I can’t help but wonder how much sooner they may have been able to stop the girl from being abused.

Yes, trying to give a courtship between Josh and their daughter another go is like WTF why would they want to do that?  Presumably the first try at courtship ended when they found out what was going on the first time but they also seemed to accept that JB / J'chelle's measures to deal with it were effective therefore the second attempt.   It seems only after Josh confessed in more detail directly to Bobye that she realized that this was really bad, bad, bad and parental attempts to deal with it didn't work.   That JB / J'chelle wouldn't hear of what she was told.  It was at that point, it appears they (the Holts) were done. 

Yeah it does make you wonder how much sooner the abuse would have stopped if they realized how bad this was the first time.  However with JB / J'chelle's pathetic response I don't know what.  They were the parents, not the Holts.  I suppose the Holts could have filed a report but how far would that have gone?  ETA:  That's a genuine question.

Edited December 5, 2021 by nokidsmom