(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[neuroticcat]

4 hours ago, Petronella said:

It is unexpected. But I can also see the draw of being with someone who thinks of big life questions and spiritual things. Being with someone who cares about morality and deep goodness can be comforting and feel like a better future bet than maybe friends who were more focused on superficial things, immediate things, casual things. Obviously, Jim Bob's morality had/has little depth and his religious slant was (is!) constricting and, well, awful. But at the start it *promised* wonderful stuff to her. If she wanted "deeper" stuff in life I can see how she *thought* it was a good idea at the time. I wonder what her family thought. Do we know?

A long time ago I had a crush on a guy at my church who ended up dating and then engaged to someone else. I was very jealous of course. Then I learned that he told her he was all into the "no birth control" thing and she broke the engagement. Good for her!!!!! I'm glad she noped out of that.

I mean, her family signed off on her marriage at age 17. IIRC, they were moving out of state. She was the youngest of six or seven - all much older than her. They might have been estranged b/c of their cult beliefs but I think they never really saw or engaged much with her extended family. She mentioned her dad a couple of times but crickets about her mom. On an early special, they went to a family reunion for her dad’s birthday, and it was super weird, almost like the kids had never met any of them. I think a relative or two popped up later on but very much felt estranged or distanced.
 

This could have been because her mom died when she was pretty young and everyone was so much older, but I always thought that was rather telling - probably because of my own mom issues. I believe her home life was probably not healthy. Jim Bob grew up with instability - periodic poverty at least - and as a child of alcoholic with anger problems. I’ve always thought Michelle came from at the very least neglect. In general, I think first generation cult converts usually are sucked in b/c of some kind of chaos.

[fundiesarefascinating]

22 minutes ago, Lovebug said:

This right here is the million dollar question. 

It was interesting to read comments on Bobye’s FB page when she was replying to people calling her out for not reporting until now. She kept saying they were misinformed. Very curious…

The Holts were arranging a marriage for their underage daughter (to a known offender!) which I think at its best could be considered a disgusting lapse in moral judgement and at its worse abusive. To be clear, I think this absolutely falls into the worst category. All this to say that their sense of right/wrong or appropriate/inappropriate was extremely warped. So I don't believe for a moment that they were "misinformed". Every single adult had enough information to protect those children and chose not to. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by fundiesarefascinating
ETA: clarification

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Lovebug said:

Honestly though, how repulsed were the Holts? They had first hand knowledge of what was going on and still invited Josh to live in their home in hopes of rekindling his relationship with their daughter. Although I’m super thankful that they are coming forward now, I can’t help but wonder how much sooner they may have been able to stop the girls from being abused. 
 

And there will always be the WTAF were they thinking offering up their daughter more than once to Josh. Incredible…

I have read some posts on Bobye Holt’s public Facebook page that suggest that the Holts were once engaged with the cult but were never fully in the cult. She has stated that they are Conservative Christians but not “in the same group” as the Duggars.

My best guess about why they invited Josh to stay with them for a while is that their daughter may have had a little crush on Josh (which they had initially encouraged) and they were fond of the boy (whom they had seen grow up) and wanted to give him a chance to show that he had put his mistakes behind him.  Having him in their house and offering him counseling while he was there was a way to try to help him while also deciding if they could trust him with their daughter.

What happened instead was that they learned more about Josh’s offenses than they had known before.  Remember that initially they had been told that Josh had just confessed to molesting a sister over clothing.  They disclosed that it had happened before and that usually the victims were asleep.  But the impression given was probably what JB and Michelle were telling Meghan Kelly in 2016.  It was just a couple of instances, it was just curiosity, it was over clothes.  This was probably all the Holts knew, and at that point they weren’t “disgusted.”

The shock and disgust came when Josh confessed more details— that he had started fondling his sisters while they slept when he was only twelve, that at some point a sister had caught him and “snitched,” that when he molested the youngest he went so far as to insert his finger in her vagina before she jumped up and reported him.    This was way more than the Holts bargained for, and according to Bobye they urged the Duggars to get help but were brushed off. Sometime afterwards (it appears) Josh was caught viewing porn and was sent back to his parents. (I believe that this is the period of the “dig a pond while ostracized” punishment.  The punishment for the molestation had been earlier, before he went to stay with the Holts.)

Anyway, I get the feeling that the Holts were ready to overlook a “boyish mistake due to an excess of hormones” but when they realized it was more than that, they pulled away.  At that point, of course, they should have reported the problem to CPS, but they couldn’t bring themselves to do that.

I get the feeling Bobye feels guilty about Anna.

[Queen Of Hearts]

9 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I think Josh would want to stay married.  He's going to be alone in jail, he wants his life lines.  Plus, the creepy sadistic factor of enjoyment he gets out of Anna having to still be under his control as headship no matter what he throws at her.   

Agreed. Plus, if he stays married while in jail he knows JB will support the kids. Once he is out I say it is game on and would not be surprised if he doesn't file for divorce and flee - and by then he will likely have a lot less minor kids to have to pay child support for.

[onekidanddone]

I wonder what is going on in the Holt daughter’s head right now knowing her parents were going to marry her off to an abusive violent predator.

Edited December 5, 2021 by onekidanddone

[Beermeet]

22 minutes ago, St.Clara said:

We will never be able to know for sure, and your guess is as good as mine. But I tend to think that Josh would be a normal person if he had been raised by loving parents. Not somebody who would set the world on fire necessarily, rather laid back, maybe shy but lovable. What I know about how he grew up is amply sufficient for me in order to explain why he turned out the way he did. I do not see a need to assume that he was born evil, just that he doesn´t have a strong personality by nature, and that he is not very resilient. To be clear, I do not think that every child in his position would have become the monster Josh is now. Children do have different personalities. Another child might have been able to fight back in a more productive way, or might have taken a path that would have been also tragic, but in a different way.

I don´t want to come across as justifying Josh´s behaviour as an adult. He was in a position to know that his parents were fake, better than any of his siblings. The cognitive dissonance he must have suffered was even worse than what any of them went through. So it was his responsibility to inform everybody that the emperor wore no clothes and that he was in dire need of medical assistance. He did not do that and that is on him. I am not giving Josh the adult a pass in any way, shape or form, and I want to be absolutely clear on this.

The story about the crime committed in your town is absolutely horrifying, of course. I do not think, though, that we have enough data in this case in order to determine if this kid was born evil or not. That the mom was described as average and loving does not tell me much. That can mean a lot of things. And even if the mom was the best mom ever, the boy probably also had a father. A grandmother. An uncle. A cousin. You name it....

I have refrained from commenting much on the parents of the kids that I found to be cruel. Those parents would also be described by a lot of people as very nice and normal. From my experience, I can say that they interact with their child in a way that is visibly damaging, and when we try to cautiously address that they refuse to listen to us.

I think that we live in a society – and I suppose you in the US do, too – where a lot of mental health problems go unnoticed and untreated. I myself grew up with an alcoholic father and a mother who had serious mental health issues. But we were upper middle class, my father did not drink in public, so nobody ever noticed. When I was eighteen, I had an eating disorder, I was suicidal and cut myself. I am sure that everybody who saw me did not understand why. I had so nice and loving parents, hadn´t I?

As I said, I do not want to rule out the possibility that some children are born with a, let´s say, highly underdeveloped moral sense. But if that is the case, there is obviously nothing we can do about it. On the other hand, if we assume that children are born good and made evil, that is something we, as a society, are able to address and change. It is uncomfortable because we have to take a close look at things that are ugly, we have to admit that sometimes good intentions are not sufficient. But as long as the facts do not clearly point in one direction, I prefer to choose an interpretation of them that gives me agency and a chance to change things for the better.

If it was Josh's upbringing,  then his brothers,  at least one or 2 others, if not all, would be this way.   I don't think pedophiles can be made or rehabilitated.  Josh would be the same but in the secular world is all.  

I've been deeply pissed off at some of the things I was held back from, never once did I want to harm a child because of it.   Josh is sick, he's wired wrong.  His circumstances gave him ample opportunity and his parents gave him the freedom to keep hurting his sisters.  He would have done it in a 20 bedroom mansion with completely different parents.   

I had a pretty lonely and crappy upbringing but I didn't cut or do drugs.   

Nature vs nurture is definitely an interesting topic.  I think pedophilia is beyond good or bad parents in most cases.   

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

It occurs to me that some people might want a reading list to learn more about abusive behavior and sociopathy. Maybe it should be a separate thread but I'll throw out a few recommendations and others can add to it.

Someone earlier mentioned Lundy Bancroft's EXCELLENT book, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men"  This book, in my mind, is such a great place to start. It helps people understand and identify abusive behavior. A must read, IMO.

Robert Hare's "Without Conscience: The disturbing world of psychopaths among us" is a great book about psychopathy. It's a little dated but that doesn't stop me from recommending it because it's so well written and educational.

In one of these books I read this interesting fact: The top three professions for psychopaths are 1) business CEO, 2) lawyer, 3) pastor

Another great book is George Simon's "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and dealing with manipulative people." This book talks a lot about covert aggression - the kind that makes you leave a conversation feeling terrible and wondering what just happened. Excellent in helping people identify this very subtle means of control.

That’s 🤯 that pastor is up there for psychopath. I mean, I know there are loads of narcissists in pulpits, but whew! I guess that explains how some can fleece their flocks knowingly and only show regret when caught.

[nausicaa]

Just now, Beermeet said:

If it was Josh's upbringing,  then his brothers,  at least one or 2 others, if not all, would be this way.   I don't think pedophiles can be made or rehabilitated.  Josh would be the same but in the secular world is all.  

I've been deeply pissed off at some of the things I was held back from, never once did I want to harm a child because of it.   Josh is sick, he's wired wrong. 

Yeah, I'm surprised people think Josh would have been okay with better parents. At this point, it's pretty clear he's a pedophile. 

JimBob and Michelle just did absolutely nothing to lessen the collateral damage. 

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, Jinderella said:

All weekend to ponder... I'm way to privileged to have much sympathy for Anna not doing everything to protect her children, but regardless, this must be a very hard 2 weeks for her. And we already noticed that the only family member consistently sitting with her is Derick. Even if JB told everyone they were not supposed to show up, she must feel abandoned somewhere deep down. 

When Josh is in prison, and JB and his Duglings have washed their hands clean of him, don't you think she will start to wonder about the only one being beside her every day were not her parents, not her husband's parents, but the one that got away? Will that, not immediately but after some resentment about her situation undoubtedly starts to build, make a difference? 

I hope so, but she has believed all the party lines before. So if they say they prayed about it and God told them to stay home, will she really be resentful. That would be like resenting God. 

[Beermeet]

1 minute ago, neuroticcat said:

That’s 🤯 that pastor is up there for psychopath. I mean, I know there are loads of narcissists in pulpits, but whew! I guess that explains how some can fleece their flocks knowingly and only show regret when caught.

You gotta have a certain personality to get up there and lead your flock.  Kinda like actors.  It takes a certain kind of ego to be able to that.  

[ILoveJellybeans]

I dont know if its possible to be born evil, but I think its a combination of nature and nurture. I think its likely that some people are born with certain personality traits that predispose them to criminal behaviour/violence,, but a lot of them can grow up to be law abiding citizens if they are raised well.

Like the Duggar siblings, I am also part of a large family (not as large though). I also have a brother who is in prison. My family was horribly dysfunctional, and whilst the rest of us grew into average people, he grew up violent. He's always been a completely creepy child who sought out violent content whenever possible and was persistently a bully to our younger siblings and at school, had a massive ego, and has always been extremely interested in weapons. My mother always was like "boys will be boys". From being about 8, I thought he was going to grow up into a future serial killer, as his behaviour was seriously creepy. He did threaten to murder a classmate with a knife when he was 11, a knife did go missing from the kitchen at the time, it was never found, but he was never charged or anything because he denied it and school didnt find it when they checked his bag, so it was just a threat from their perspective. He is now in jail for attempted murder after he stabbed a random person, and he was braggy when interviewed about how he had been practicing on animals for a while before and how he always wanted to kill someone to see what it was like. Later on, when he was in jail, I found an old bag under the bed in childlike handwriting that contained an empty bottle, a cleaning cloth and a checklist that indicated he just needed gas and matches, as well as drawings of him committing a school shooting. Prison is probably the safest place for him although he's got 5 years left and I dont know what he will be like when he gets out. 

Also I think the information that is coming out in the trial is just the tip of the iceberg. I dont believe for a second that he has turned off his pedophilic tendencies between him being 12-15 and molesting his sisters and then being in his 30s and all of a sudden creating this partition and immediately downloading the most extreme, worst CSA images/videos the dark web has to offer. I think it is possible and likely that he has been doing it a lot longer, on a different device that was not taken by the cops. I dont know much about the dark web or pedophiles, but it seems like he knew what he was doing, and I think people arent going to go to the most extreme stuff first but instead start with less extreme content and gradually move to worse and worse. That's probably the best case scenario anyway, I hope he has not been touching any more children.

[3KidsAndStopped]

I don't think Josh is bothered if he stays married or not. Josh cares about Josh.

Josh likes control and to be the most important person, in his eyes, in any given situation. Whatever situation he is put in, he will try to manipulate it so this is the case. He wants to be the best, the most revered.

The only benefit, in Josh's eyes, to be married would be to be the embodiment of a godly headship, with a perfect wife, an expanding quiver and the ability to look down his nose at all around him as lesser than him.

Well, that is all shot to shit now. He cannot undo this; he will NEVER EVER be accepted by his wider community again. No forgiveness this time. Marriage has in effect lost its usefulness for him as it no longer affords him position in his community.

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

David Waller is currently preaching at his church. His topic is about the office of the deacon. When I joined the live broadcast he was saying that you can have a perfect house and perfect family but still have a child who goes astray. Then he cites Adam and Eve who had a child who murdered, and then Jesus who had a disciple who betrayed him.

Now he is talking about how the wife of a deacon should act (grave i.e. dignified, sober).

Having missed the beginning I thought it was an interesting topic if he has been sitting in on the trial. Is he trying to say that JB&M aren’t to blame for the way their son turned out? But then that would also be saying that Josh is guilty.

I think it’s a way of distancing the family from Josh (himself included). JB and Michelle can still be godly despite this circumstance. It’s an indirect instruction not to question their parenting methods, which were IBLP, which he is still heavily involved in. And a way to applaud Anna (her courtroom dissociation could be perceived as being sober and dignified).

Nothing to see here, folks! We are all still super godly even though Josh is now publicly revealed to be a horrible criminal beyond our wildest imaginings! 

What’s absurd is the whole premise of ATI/IBLP is that it’s your job as godly parents to teach your children the path so that they stay on it. And the carrot they offer is that if you follow the Way of the Umbrella your children won’t rebel like all of those hippies (it started amidst the sexual revolution). I’ve only ever heard this sort of “well God was a perfect parent and even His children disobeyed” stuff from gentle Christian parenting teaching. 

[RosyDaisy]

29 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

It's entirely possible there were many more interactions involving CPS and the police that we don't know about. 

Didn't "Alice" or "concernedmom" state that the Duggars had to report to CPS every 6 months or something?

 

[EmCatlyn]

2 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Agreed. Plus, if he stays married while in jail he knows JB will support the kids. Once he is out I say it is game on and would not be surprised if he doesn't file for divorce and flee - and by then he will likely have a lot less minor kids to have to pay child support for.

I am not sure Josh will care about having to support minor kids if he really wants to get away.  We don’t know that he wants to get away.

As far as what will happen in prison, I see three possible directions for him:

1. He will focus on being a model prisoner and invent for himself a new identity as a leader and example.  This could include his getting some sort of education, maybe even an associate degree or better.  He would possibly look into some sort of ministry (if he can fool people) or get into some type of “advocacy” group.  Anything to make him feel important and get him perks.

2. He will turn to drugs to assist him in dealing with the prison life and the sense of having no escape.  So far, that is one line he hasn’t crossed (we think), but he might if he thinks it will give him some pleasure/comfort.

3. He will hunker down, endure, pretend, do what he needs to do to get by but not put too much effort into anything except his immediate gratification and come out more or less the same as before, but older and more sneaky.

These are just guesses, and he may combine elements from each, but I definitely think those are the three main directions.

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

If it was Josh's upbringing,  then his brothers,  at least one or 2 others, if not all, would be this way.   I don't think pedophiles can be made or rehabilitated.  Josh would be the same but in the secular world is all.  

I've been deeply pissed off at some of the things I was held back from, never once did I want to harm a child because of it.   Josh is sick, he's wired wrong.  His circumstances gave him ample opportunity and his parents gave him the freedom to keep hurting his sisters.  He would have done it in a 20 bedroom mansion with completely different parents.   

I had a pretty lonely and crappy upbringing but I didn't cut or do drugs.   

Nature vs nurture is definitely an interesting topic.  I think pedophilia is beyond good or bad parents in most cases.   

I don’t think there a wide acceptance of this topic so I won’t say you are wrong or right. I think it’s an extremely complex issue. Of course I have an opinion that I likely can’t prove. I’m no scientist that’s for sure. I’m not great at the hard sciences to be honest. But I do have a belief that his parents play a role in his actions, not his pedophilia. It’s just my personal belief that there are likely to be pedophiles who may not act on it. It seems like pedophiles who are caught committing abuse are the ones studied. I often wonder if there are pedophiles out there who don’t offend. They likely wouldn’t admit it! It’s such a taboo topic that I doubt a person would even want to talk about it privately with a therapist. Maybe some people just live with those proclivities without acting on it. Without victimizing anyone. I personally can’t help but think JB and Michelle excused Josh’s behavior and this helped form his beliefs on how he can harm people and get away with it. A person’s actions should have appropriate consequences. I don’t believe he was ever given proper consequences to those actions and he may not feel the empathy a person should have when perpetrating harm on others. So this is my long winded response of saying it’s a mix of nature and nurture. Nature being the genetics and nurture being his parents’ inability to address it properly. Which isn’t surprising because I often say that when it comes to so much of human behavior! I’m predictable.

[Satan'sFortress]

I really can't believe Anna's parents are not there to support her. Even if they think Josh is innocent,  they should still be at her side.

Amy said she and her mom didn't know about the details of Josh's past crimes. I wonder if Grandma Mary did.

[Beermeet]

9 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I am not sure Josh will care about having to support minor kids if he really wants to get away.  We don’t know that he wants to get away.

As far as what will happen in prison, I see three possible directions for him:

1. He will focus on being a model prisoner and invent for himself a new identity as a leader and example.  This could include his getting some sort of education, maybe even an associate degree or better.  He would possibly look into some sort of ministry (if he can fool people) or get into some type of “advocacy” group.  Anything to make him feel important and get him perks.

2. He will turn to drugs to assist him in dealing with the prison life and the sense of having no escape.  So far, that is one line he hasn’t crossed (we think), but he might if he thinks it will give him some pleasure/comfort.

3. He will hunker down, endure, pretend, do what he needs to do to get by but not put too much effort into anything except his immediate gratification and come out more or less the same as before, but older and more sneaky.

These are just guesses, and he may combine elements from each, but I definitely think those are the three main directions.

#2. I now wonder if Josh does do drugs or drinks.  Remember that mugshot where he looked wasted?  We all speculated what he was on. Crying was a possibility but I don’t think so, after crying face looks much different than stoned off your ass face.  The dark web is great for pills, pills are more discreet than pot or booze.  Pills are everywhere unfortunately.   Kids get them using Snapchat these days.  I have an ex that gave me a good education on sneaky drug use.  I can totally see Josh doing that.  The thrill of acquiring and feeling groovy while no one is the wiser is a part of it.  I think Josh could very well go down that route and/or #1 . 

[Sabine]

i guess these guys are out of fucks to give. 

[EmCatlyn]

12 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

I wonder what is going on in the Holt daughter’s head right now knowing her parents were going to marry her off to an abusive predator 

I think this characterization of her parents’ plans is incorrect.  It appears that as soon as her parents realized that Josh was “an abusive predator” they backed out for good. I think that is why Bobye feels guilty about Anna. They protected their daughter, but did not let others know, so Anna’s parents couldn’t protect her.

I have no patience with fundie Christians and dislike the Holts’ views in general.  However, they were initially just encouraging a boy-girl relationship between their daughter and a boy they thought of as practically a nephew.  They hoped a courtship and marriage would happen, but there is no sense that they were going to “arrange” it if they didn’t feel it was in their daughter’s best interests.

What they were doing is a time-honored way of not so much “arranging” as “promoting” marriage between the children of friends.  I had a dentist who would give parties at his house for the dental school students hoping that one of them would hit it off with his daughter.  When one of them did, he did not “arrange” a marriage but definitely facilitated it, bringing the young man into his dental practice.  I mention this to show it is not just a fundie thing, even in these days. 

[Jana814]

2 minutes ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I really can't believe Anna's parents are not there to support her. Even if they think Josh is innocent,  they should still be at her side.

Amy said she and her mom didn't know about the details of Josh's past crimes. I wonder if Grandma Mary did.

I don’t know if Grandma knew anything. If she did she may not have wanted to tell her daughter or Amy. 

[imokit]

1 minute ago, EmCatlyn said:

I think this characterization of her parents’ plans is incorrect.  It appears that as soon as her parents realized that Josh was “an abusive predator” they backed out for good. I think that is why Bobye feels guilty about Anna. They protected their daughter, but did not let others know, so Anna’s parents couldn’t protect her.

I have no patience with fundie Christians and dislike the Holts’ views in general.  However, they were initially just encouraging a boy-girl relationship between their daughter and a boy they thought of as practically a nephew.  They hoped a courtship and marriage would happen, but there is no sense that they were going to “arrange” it if they didn’t feel it was in their daughter’s best interests.

What they were doing is a time-honored way of not so much “arranging” as “promoting” marriage between the children of friends.  I had a dentist who would give parties at his house for the dental school students hoping that one of them would hit it off with his daughter.  When one of them did, he did not “arrange” a marriage but definitely facilitated it, bringing the young man into his dental practice.  I mention this to show it is not just a fundie thing, even in these days. 

They stopped the relationship initially, but then a few years later, they let him back in their house in the hope things would restart.

Even if at that point, they only knew about touching over clothes, when asleep and he'd had a chance to repent.  They let him in the house and wanted the relationship back on.  They let him in a house with their own minor children.  The daughter involved is their oldest, there were little girls in the house.  Knowing only a little, but still enough bad,  they let him in and wanted him to father grandchildren.

[anjulibai]

23 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Didn't "Alice" or "concernedmom" state that the Duggars had to report to CPS every 6 months or something?

 

I don't recall, but it's entirely possible. That family is hiding a shit ton of skeletons. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

19 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I am not sure Josh will care about having to support minor kids if he really wants to get away.  We don’t know that he wants to get away.

As far as what will happen in prison, I see three possible directions for him:

1. He will focus on being a model prisoner and invent for himself a new identity as a leader and example.  This could include his getting some sort of education, maybe even an associate degree or better.  He would possibly look into some sort of ministry (if he can fool people) or get into some type of “advocacy” group.  Anything to make him feel important and get him perks.

2. He will turn to drugs to assist him in dealing with the prison life and the sense of having no escape.  So far, that is one line he hasn’t crossed (we think), but he might if he thinks it will give him some pleasure/comfort.

3. He will hunker down, endure, pretend, do what he needs to do to get by but not put too much effort into anything except his immediate gratification and come out more or less the same as before, but older and more sneaky.

These are just guesses, and he may combine elements from each, but I definitely think those are the three main directions.

I think he's going to come out even worse if he's housed with other sex offenders.  Being in a community of like minded people normalizes what they have in common.

I can see him taking advantage of education offered out of boredom, stay out of trouble, work up a redemption arc by starting in prison being involved in 'ministry' as ego salve.  Spend the rest of the time whining in calls home and commissary snacks.

He should never get out.

[Beermeet]

17 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I don’t think there a wide acceptance of this topic so I won’t say you are wrong or right. I think it’s an extremely complex issue. Of course I have an opinion that I likely can’t prove. I’m no scientist that’s for sure. I’m not great at the hard sciences to be honest. But I do have a belief that his parents play a role in his actions, not his pedophilia. It’s just my personal belief that there are likely to be pedophiles who may not act on it. It seems like pedophiles who are caught committing abuse are the ones studied. I often wonder if there are pedophiles out there who don’t offend. They likely wouldn’t admit it! It’s such a taboo topic that I doubt a person would even want to talk about it privately with a therapist. Maybe some people just live with those proclivities without acting on it. Without victimizing anyone. I personally can’t help but think JB and Michelle excused Josh’s behavior and this helped form his beliefs on how he can harm people and get away with it. A person’s actions should have appropriate consequences. I don’t believe he was ever given proper consequences to those actions and he may not feel the empathy a person should have when perpetrating harm on others. So this is my long winded response of saying it’s a mix of nature and nurture. Nature being the genetics and nurture being his parents’ inability to address it properly. Which isn’t surprising because I often say that when it comes to so much of human behavior! I’m predictable.

In no way did Josh's upbringing help, we can all see that!   

Taking emotion out of it, it seems to me, some people are born with certain tendencies, then, nurture moves that along as it will, playing out in one's individual upbringing.  That is a really interesting thought you had, about people who very well may have pedophile thoughts but don't put it to action.  I guess we would really not be able to study that because,  as you said, who is volunteering?!   

Maybe one day science will have a better idea.  

Edited December 5, 2021 by Beermeet
Grammer