(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[Giraffe]

12 minutes ago, Lovebug said:

Honestly though, how repulsed were the Holts? They had first hand knowledge of what was going on and still invited Josh to live in their home in hopes of rekindling his relationship with their daughter.  [snip]

I wonder if part of Bobye testifying now is she's finally realized how fucked up this was. 

[Lovebug]

@nokidsmom FYI, I was not attacking you personally and I apologize if it came off that way. Just an observation my friend. ♥️ 😘

And that is a great question! I wonder if anyone knows how far it could have gone if they did report? The Duggars are slimy bastards who seem to have a fair amount of weight to throw around their immediate community and within their church. I can’t imagine it would have gone far? Perhaps they did report something and it was quickly squashed? I’m not sure we’ll ever know.

[nokidsmom]

2 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I wonder if part of Bobye testifying now is she's finally realized how fucked up this was. 

It sounds like she was pretty bothered by Joshley's confession in the first place but didn't (or couldn't) do anything because the parents didn't want to hear it.    She's had years to think about it and of course, now a CSA case involving the "curious" kid now adult.   There must be all kinds of "what ifs" going through her head now.

[AprilQuilt]

7 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I wonder if part of Bobye testifying now is she's finally realized how fucked up this was. 

I think so. Either she was in a position at the time when she couldn't even see the seriousness of what Josh was doing, or she did see but felt unable to do more than she did. For whatever reason. And this has weighed on her mind for some time - perhaps for many years, perhaps since his 2019 arrest finally brought the realisation home - and now she sees an opportunity to speak up.

I suspect she feels some degree of guilt, which she definitely should. 

[Lovebug]

12 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I wonder if part of Bobye testifying now is she's finally realized how fucked up this was. 

I think that’s a really good possibility. She was just as deep in this cult as many are, but it seems like she’s had an epiphany. I’m glad.

[Bethella]

3 minutes ago, Lovebug said:

And that is a great question! I wonder if anyone knows how far it could have gone if they did report? The Duggars are slimy bastards who seem to have a fair amount of weight to throw around their immediate community and within their church. I can’t imagine it would have gone far? Perhaps they did report something and it was quickly squashed? I’m not sure we’ll ever know.

I have to disagree- we know that the police fully investigated when Oprah reported the situation after the fact. The only problem with that investigation was that it happened after the statute of limitations was up. If they had reported it at the time, I think Josh would have been charged, probably as a juvenile. 

[Tatar-tot]

34 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

I agree with this.  JB is and always has been, more concerned with his family's "brand" and reputation as opposed to doing the right things for his family.  JB's financial support of his adult children is not helping them, it's about control over what they can and cannot do.   Derick himself has talked about this.  Joshley was kept on a particularly short lease because he's caused the most damage to the family brand and the lack of job/economic prospects as a result.

The lawyers are not there for supporting his son, they are for keeping Joshley out of jail because once Joshley disappears behind the prison doors, all control over the errant eldest son is completely lost.   Joshley can decide to do anything and there's nothing JB can do about it.  He's already had a taste of what loss of control will look like early last week when the judge did not find him credible after being forced to give testimony and after efforts trying to dodge it.  Joshley will be completely and totally out of JB's reach.

Also, I was always one of those who believed Joshley did not like his life, he did not want to have a bunch of kids, he wanted something different for himself even if he was too lazy or felt too trapped by his upbringing/reality TV world/fundie rules to do anything about it.   Going to jail might honestly be an out for him and I would not be at all surprised that he files for divorce while in jail.  In jail he has nothing left to lose and might have one thing to gain: freedom from going back to his previous life once he's out.  It's a hell of a way to gain one's freedom though but I always thought Joshley's life was a certain type of prison. 

After beatings, head shaving and pong digging,  prison will probably be a cake walk for Josh.  An occasional fist fight, 3 meals and no kids screaming or wife whining at him Josh probably will welcome the change at first.  The only issue he is facing is how to load up his commissary account if he is imprisoned.

3 minutes ago, Bethella said:

I have to disagree- we know that the police fully investigated when Oprah reported the situation after the fact. The only problem with that investigation was that it happened after the statute of limitations was up. If they had reported it at the time, I think Josh would have been charged, probably as a juvenile. 

And probably gotten court mandated help.

[Lovebug]

18 minutes ago, Bethella said:

I have to disagree- we know that the police fully investigated when Oprah reported the situation after the fact. The only problem with that investigation was that it happened after the statute of limitations was up. If they had reported it at the time, I think Josh would have been charged, probably as a juvenile. 

Oh - I was questioning more than anything! Honestly wondering if it would go anywhere? If JB would try to and stop it? If the Holts maybe did report, etc. KWIM?

Edited December 5, 2021 by Lovebug

[PinkGreyBrown]

Of all the flies on the wall that I would be if I could, I'd most like to be a fly on the wall observing Jim Bob & Josh's interactions since the prosecution has presented its case. Really curious what Josh told his father, & how JB is feeling towards Josh now.

[Antimony]

1 hour ago, ifosterkittens said:

Both theories are possible, and I think your first theory is right. Michelle knows it is likely Josh did download and view the CSAM. She may not want to admit it out loud, but she knows Josh's actions in the past, and knows this is not out of character. She doesn't want to sit there and listen to the awful details. If she doesn't go maybe can pretend it is the same sin as viewing regular porn or whatever other lies she tells herself. 

Michelle may also feel she did her best as a mother because she followed her husband's lead. They sought church counsel, sent him away to dig a pond and reflect on his actions, essentially shunned him in their own house except when filming (when his head was shaved), he went to confess his crimes to the cop in hopes of scaring him straight, she may choose to believe she did everything she could. One thing I do believe is she probably devoted herself to prayer, and fasting (or modified fasting if pregnant/nursing, maybe denying herself her favorite foods if she couldn't do traditional fasting) all in hopes that would set Josh on the right path. 

Does Michelle feels the CSAM was in 2019 Josh was 31 at the time, and he is an adult and these crimes are on him, or on him and Anna? Maybe Michelle blames the devil. Maybe Michelle blames Anna for not being a good enough wife to keep his interests. 

I would not be surprised if Michelle is internally furious with Josh. Josh has brought so much bad publicity to their family, and she may perceive that as a bigger injustice than his actual crimes.

In the I Pray You Put This Journal Away, Justin reports that Michelle was the most distraught during the weekly "Josh updates" at church and was regularly weeping. I somehow wonder if this is why she isn't present, is because she knows she would cry through most of it? Michelle can hide some emotions pretty good (cult) but she might be the weepiest of the Duggars. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, Antimony said:

In the I Pray You Put This Journal Away, Justin reports that Michelle was the most distraught during the weekly "Josh updates" at church and was regularly weeping. I somehow wonder if this is why she isn't present, is because she knows she would cry through most of it? Michelle can hide some emotions pretty good (cult) but she might be the weepiest of the Duggars. 

Of JB, M, and Josh I think Michelle is the only one capable of experiencing shame.  

Not guilt necessarily, but shame.  Whatever she truly believes I think the public knowledge at this point has got to be killing her.  If so, good.

Edited December 5, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I don't understand why he wants to appear to be a member of the legal team though. He knows when he steps out of the courtroom carrying the defense attorney's boxes the film crews will right there. It's just not a good look.

Aside from David, has any member of Anna's family been seen in or around the courthouse? Parents, siblings? 

I don’t know much about David, but here in the South it is not uncommon for men to help others carry things even if they are on opposing sides of an issue or even strangers.   I doubt his congregation will see more than that.

The only family member that has seemed to have been there for Anna all along has been “Uncle Eric,” the Santa Claus-looking guy.  He was sitting with her before Derrick joined her.  (I believe Uncle Eric is Jim Bob’s uncle.)

Regarding siblings being there “for Jill” if she has to speak, I think the timing is tricky (she may not be called as a witness) and also she may not want/need anyone except Derrick.  She may feel more comfortable speaking without a half-dozen siblings present.

[nokidsmom]

28 minutes ago, Lovebug said:

@nokidsmom FYI, I was not attacking you personally and I apologize if it came off that way. Just an observation my friend. ♥️ 😘

And that is a great question! I wonder if anyone knows how far it could have gone if they did report? The Duggars are slimy bastards who seem to have a fair amount of weight to throw around their immediate community and within their church. I can’t imagine it would have gone far? Perhaps they did report something and it was quickly squashed? I’m not sure we’ll ever know.

@LovebugNo worries, I felt what you posted was a genuine observation.💗   And it is a valid question of why they decided to try to match up their daughter again after what they knew about him.  I guess they just looked up to the Duggars so much that they just accepted that the situation was as they (the Duggars) told them and that effective steps were taken.   But they could have done that and still decide to take the road of "abundance of caution" when it came to their daughter and nixed Josh as a suitor.   I do wonder if Bobye realizes now that it could have been her own daughter sitting in that courtroom instead of Anna and she would have been responsible.

That JB had a lot of influence and power in his church and in his local area makes it very plausible he would have squelched anything coming out of any report.  Something tells me that it wouldn't have been JB's first rodeo doing that even back then.  Possibly he told them not to report or else.  And you may be right, the Holts might have made a report either within their church or LE but nothing came of it.  One thing I noticed was that was the "clergy privilege" issue raised around Bobye's testimony*.   Possibly that was why nothing did come of any report, formal or informal.

Edited December 5, 2021 by nokidsmom
* Correction: believe it was Bobye's testimony not JB's

[FiveAcres]

I wonder if the Holts were found by the FBI, or if they volunteered their information when Josh was arraigned for possession of CSAM. I mean, prior to the arraignment, was it generally known on the forums that the Holts were the family church contacts to whom ma and pa Duggar reached out? (I also wonder, when the information came through that the torrent files had been downloaded at a business owned by the Duggars if there wasn't someone on the CP task force thinking "We finally got the little f******."  I can't believe that there wasn't speculation from members of the task force whether Josh had been successfully rehabbed.) 

I have read that Justin of I Pray You Put This Journal Away reached out to the FBI to volunteer information and was told "Thanks, but we think we have enough." 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, FiveAcres said:

was it generally known on the forums that the Holts were the family church contacts to whom ma and pa Duggar reached out?

Yes

[waltraute]

As to why the Holt's did not make a police report, I belive they had been told a report was made by JB and Michelle. And it was.To JB's pedophile police friend. It was documented somewhere in the police records, wasn't it? 

As to the rest of the Holt's actions I have no idea what they were thinking. I'm just glad Bobye is standing up for the hard truth now.  

13 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

I do wonder if Bobye realizes now that it could have been her own daughter sitting in that courtroom instead of Anna and she would have been responsible.

I'm almost certain this is going through her head now. 

[neuroticcat]

5 hours ago, imokit said:

David Wallers presence in the courtroom, makes me wonder (hope) that Pricilla and their kids are with Josh and the M's.  (I think his presence and thus knowledge of the details make him even more scummy then the rest of the cult and I'm surprised that a preacher is supporting a legal defence of child abuse).  I hope she's in the background supporting Anna and not still in Texas, but I don't know.

He may feel that it’s his pastoral duty. I know in my denomination a bishop is required to support their clergy in this way - offer them religious support during imprisonments/court hearings - no matter their guilt or innocence. Not saying David is thinking it through that much - he may be there at Anna’s or Priscilla’s request or just to see Josh squirm. We know he carried boxes out for the attorneys, but that doesn’t mean he’s there to support Josh. He could have just been there for Anna too and offered to “serve”. Like Justin’s thumbs up, I think some of those things are so automatic for these people and approves of in their circles they don’t consciously think about it, I.e. sweet, positive Justin (sweetness and positivity are always commendable), David is such a servant (automatically help no matter what). In some ways, I am happy for whoever is still in the cult to be there and 1. See actual court justice which will hopefully dismantle some of their arrogance toward outside authority 2. Hear the charges for themselves and see the horror of the worldly people - perhaps it can jolt them out of the oh-well-we-all-sin mindset. 

[St.Clara]

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

All that is to say — yes, obviously there are usually signs of something wrong. The horribly abusive cult Josh grew up in certainly hurt his chances of not constantly offending. But also there are some really sick/twisted/evil/damaged/badly wired people out there. I really think Josh is one of those. 

We will never be able to know for sure, and your guess is as good as mine. But I tend to think that Josh would be a normal person if he had been raised by loving parents. Not somebody who would set the world on fire necessarily, rather laid back, maybe shy but lovable. What I know about how he grew up is amply sufficient for me in order to explain why he turned out the way he did. I do not see a need to assume that he was born evil, just that he doesn´t have a strong personality by nature, and that he is not very resilient. To be clear, I do not think that every child in his position would have become the monster Josh is now. Children do have different personalities. Another child might have been able to fight back in a more productive way, or might have taken a path that would have been also tragic, but in a different way.

I don´t want to come across as justifying Josh´s behaviour as an adult. He was in a position to know that his parents were fake, better than any of his siblings. The cognitive dissonance he must have suffered was even worse than what any of them went through. So it was his responsibility to inform everybody that the emperor wore no clothes and that he was in dire need of medical assistance. He did not do that and that is on him. I am not giving Josh the adult a pass in any way, shape or form, and I want to be absolutely clear on this.

The story about the crime committed in your town is absolutely horrifying, of course. I do not think, though, that we have enough data in this case in order to determine if this kid was born evil or not. That the mom was described as average and loving does not tell me much. That can mean a lot of things. And even if the mom was the best mom ever, the boy probably also had a father. A grandmother. An uncle. A cousin. You name it....

I have refrained from commenting much on the parents of the kids that I found to be cruel. Those parents would also be described by a lot of people as very nice and normal. From my experience, I can say that they interact with their child in a way that is visibly damaging, and when we try to cautiously address that they refuse to listen to us.

I think that we live in a society – and I suppose you in the US do, too – where a lot of mental health problems go unnoticed and untreated. I myself grew up with an alcoholic father and a mother who had serious mental health issues. But we were upper middle class, my father did not drink in public, so nobody ever noticed. When I was eighteen, I had an eating disorder, I was suicidal and cut myself. I am sure that everybody who saw me did not understand why. I had so nice and loving parents, hadn´t I?

As I said, I do not want to rule out the possibility that some children are born with a, let´s say, highly underdeveloped moral sense. But if that is the case, there is obviously nothing we can do about it. On the other hand, if we assume that children are born good and made evil, that is something we, as a society, are able to address and change. It is uncomfortable because we have to take a close look at things that are ugly, we have to admit that sometimes good intentions are not sufficient. But as long as the facts do not clearly point in one direction, I prefer to choose an interpretation of them that gives me agency and a chance to change things for the better.

[Lovebug]

21 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Lovebug
My iPad is going nuts!

[SassyPants]

I can’t intellectualize or dismiss away the fact that Josh did not make different decisions regarding his parents and family. At any time he could have pulled the headship card and told Anna that the Lord led him to limit their family size. He could have applied for a multiple of jobs from city bus driver to WM delivery to construction. He could have gotten a RE license and sold homes. But he didn’t do any of those things because he is entitled and lazy. His last arrangement which seems awful to most of us worked great for him. He had a place to go to act out and his dad paid all the bills. I think the one skill most of these Duggars do have is compartmentalization. 

[Lovebug]

20 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

20 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

I wonder if the Holts were found by the FBI, or if they volunteered their information when Josh was arraigned for possession of CSAM. 

This right here is the million dollar question. 

It was interesting to read comments on Bobye’s FB page when she was replying to people calling her out for not reporting until now. She kept saying they were misinformed. Very curious…

Edited December 5, 2021 by Lovebug

[Bethella]

10 minutes ago, waltraute said:

As to why the Holt's did not make a police report, I belive they had been told a report was made by JB and Michelle. And it was.To JB's pedophile police friend. It was documented somewhere in the police records, wasn't it? 

The adults first learned about the molestation in March 2002 and again in July 2002 and March 2003. He was sent away from March-July 2003 and they finally reported it to Hutchins in July 2003. It seems like there was plenty of time for the Holts (or anyone else) to contact the authorities, especially when it was clear there were ongoing attacks.  
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2015/05/28/timeline-josh-duggar-19-kids-and-counting-tlc-sex-abuse-scandal/28066229/

[anjulibai]

It's entirely possible there were many more interactions involving CPS and the police that we don't know about. 

Wasn't CPS called at one point to the Duggars sometime after the first scandal broke? I think I recall Joy may have been involved, but I'm not sure. 

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

I agree with this.  JB is and always has been, more concerned with his family's "brand" and reputation as opposed to doing the right things for his family.  JB's financial support of his adult children is not helping them, it's about control over what they can and cannot do.   Derick himself has talked about this.  Joshley was kept on a particularly short lease because he's caused the most damage to the family brand and the lack of job/economic prospects as a result.

The lawyers are not there for supporting his son, they are for keeping Joshley out of jail because once Joshley disappears behind the prison doors, all control over the errant eldest son is completely lost.   Joshley can decide to do anything and there's nothing JB can do about it.  He's already had a taste of what loss of control will look like early last week when the judge did not find him credible after being forced to give testimony and after efforts trying to dodge it.  Joshley will be completely and totally out of JB's reach.

Also, I was always one of those who believed Joshley did not like his life, he did not want to have a bunch of kids, he wanted something different for himself even if he was too lazy or felt too trapped by his upbringing/reality TV world/fundie rules to do anything about it.   Going to jail might honestly be an out for him and I would not be at all surprised that he files for divorce while in jail.  In jail he has nothing left to lose and might have one thing to gain: freedom from going back to his previous life once he's out.  It's a hell of a way to gain one's freedom though but I always thought Joshley's life was a certain type of prison. 

I think Josh would want to stay married.  He's going to be alone in jail, he wants his life lines.  Plus, the creepy sadistic factor of enjoyment he gets out of Anna having to still be under his control as headship no matter what he throws at her.   

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

It's entirely possible there were many more interactions involving CPS and the police that we don't know about. 

Wasn't CPS called at one point to the Duggars sometime after the first scandal broke? I think I recall Joy may have been involved, but I'm not sure. 

Yes, I remember this happening.